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Post by mrholmes on Feb 8, 2022 5:07:46 GMT -6
I thought it has been proven in many blind AB's that people fall flat on the pavement trying to tell the difference between the console mix and the console simulation comparison file. With my mentor we checked out the Slate SSL sims vs, his SSL console and we both had to say that it was very similar in depth and dimension with a slight different attitude in the transient and phase department. Nothing tragic. There are no excuses anymore, except someone needs to learn how to cook.
I still can learn a lot from my mentor. His ITB works are no different from his OTB - he just knows how to get it done. He states himself that he is keeping all the fancy OTB tools because he likes to work this way. Sound is no longer an argument for him, to work OTB.
Blessed times to create big sound at home.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree that it's very much possible to get some good sounding mixes ITB but saying that there is an equivalence in sound is just not true. I'm not sure what comparisons you're talking about but the ones I've heard by Universal Audio, or the CLA one, the ITB was pretty easy to pick out and just didn't sound anywhere near as good as the analog stuff. In a blind A/B on one source, I can be fooled by a plug in, I'll admit because I have, but I've never been fooled by a full mix where one is ITB and the other fully OTB. I've done it myself at the studio, trying to volume match everything as closely as possible, using Uad and Pluginalliance in place of the SSL 4K, pultecs, 1176s and Fairchild and the ITB came out sounding like a great sounding demo and the OTB just sounds like an album right away. The slight differences on one track build up pretty fast when you're working on a 48 track mix. This is working mostly with rock and folk stuff. I think that some genres, modern electronic music and pop for example actually can sound better ITB because the transients aren't rounded off quite so much.
I just can speak for the test we did, we were using test tones to level match the console vs. simulation. Here and there we did use our ears to get closer. Again, in the end there was not a clear winner - why should I lie to you?
I also have done many comparisons 1176 vs Plug In or the SPL Iron vs. the Hardware and others.
Some had minor gaps, others were so close that I was not worried a single second to use them.
Not going too deep into ego stuff here. My point is, I need to pick the plug ins I like. And from there on I use my ears.
I am not saying all plug ins are there. But you can pick the ones which are there.... Which still is super subjective, because we all know great ITB mixes.
I think the cook is still the most important part in it. I don't doubt your experience, even if it sounds a bit strange to me to say the ITB did sound like DEMO. This would make me curious to use my ears to bring the ITB closer to the HW version...
It's all about having fun, and I have it with my ITB setup. Need to work now.
PS. In this stuff is also a big bunch of psychology involved.
One more reason to enjoy the path to a great song.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 5:34:35 GMT -6
Can we not derail every HW thread with an ITB debate? If I wanted to go ITB only I would have done.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 8, 2022 8:16:02 GMT -6
Can we not derail every HW thread with an ITB debate? If I wanted to go ITB only I would have done.
Do you see such a debate? I am not. I just see sharing opinions on a side-question someone had. And that's it... done.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 8, 2022 9:37:50 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm skipping the whole tired ITB vs. OTB thing. Final review:Now you're really pushing my buttons. Every few weeks or so I think about scrapping all my Apollo stuff except for a satellite and getting a couple MOTO 16A's instead. I gotta tell you... I saw this coming! The way you like to use Pipeline XL in Studio One already would make this pretty easy for you. You wouldn’t even have to learn MOTU’s crazy matrix. You could use S1’s low latency monitoring and make your cue mixes in S1. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2022 14:24:07 GMT -6
So, just a quick update.. Yes, I got another one as a stop gap.
This time around the concept wasn't studio centrepiece, it's essentially nothing more than a routing matrix / side cart with a decent bus comp (I've also hooked it up to an MOTU 16A). It might as well be an X-Desk because that's essentially what it's doing.. I did interview a couple of boards in the sub $20K range and I still think the SSL is a very good sounding mixer, it does that high headroom, clean and 3D analog thing pretty well. It comes with completely balanced I/O and that's not something to be sniffed at in the world of mixers, it's better than anything I've come across thus far in the sub $5K category.
Although I still think SSL have missed a trick here and should either go back to the drawing board or offer a higher end version. I'm not going to cover my initial review but after some thoughts here's my personal wish list. Drop the converters (or make them optional) and channel comps, add a 4 band parametric like a proper SSL, at least add an attack / release to the VCA bus comp and I'd have outputs on the pre-amp channels. Finally I'd add some (potentially optional) motorised faders and then it becomes a workable solution for pro audio..
Don't tell me it can't be done for a reasonable price, their partner company A&H did a 24 channel with all of these features plus 6 Aux's and 4 subgroups for $8750.00. Yes, inflation, parts, overhead etc. I get it but this isn't a 24 channel mixer, it could essentially remain the same and one would buy two if they need to expand and connect them together (Cue's as FX returns and general I/O)..
At the moment it's just a jack of all trades master of none hence the reason it's a stop gap. It sounds great but too limiting (or compromised) to be used for its intended purpose, as a studio mixing / tracking desk..
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 13, 2022 15:01:33 GMT -6
Lol. The SSL Big Six is to Shadowk as the Retro Sta-Level is to @johnkenn .  Meant in all good fun of course. |
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Post by deaconblues on Mar 13, 2022 16:32:06 GMT -6
So, just a quick update.. Yes, I got another one as a stop gap. This time around the concept wasn't studio centrepiece, it's essentially nothing more than a routing matrix / side cart with a decent bus comp (I've also hooked it up to an MOTU 16A). It might as well be an X-Desk because that's essentially what it's doing.. I did interview a couple of boards in the sub $20K range and I still think the SSL is a very good sounding mixer, it does that high headroom, clean and 3D analog thing pretty well. It comes with completely balanced I/O and that's not something to be sniffed at in the world of mixers, it's better than anything I've come across thus far in the sub $5K category. Although I still think SSL have missed a trick here and should either go back to the drawing board or offer a higher end version. I'm not going to cover my initial review but after some thoughts here's my personal wish list. Drop the converters (or make them optional) and channel comps, add a 4 band parametric like a proper SSL, at least add an attack / release to the VCA bus comp and I'd have outputs on the pre-amp channels. Finally I'd add some (potentially optional) motorised faders and then it becomes a workable solution for pro audio.. Don't tell me it can't be done for a reasonable price, their partner company A&H did a 24 channel with all of these features plus 6 Aux's and 4 subgroups for $8750.00. Yes, inflation, parts, overhead etc. I get it but this isn't a 24 channel mixer, it could essentially remain the same and one would buy two if they need to expand and connect them together (Cue's as FX returns and general I/O).. At the moment it's just a jack of all trades master of none hence the reason it's a stop gap. It sounds great but too limiting (or compromised) to be used for its intended purpose, as a studio mixing / tracking desk.. Appreciate all of these posts. You’ve definitely saved me some cash! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2022 11:09:48 GMT -6
Not a jack of all trades any more.This will be my last post on the subject (I promise). At this point I've pretty much replaced my old SSK 4K with a piecemeal setup, it's great for maintenance because most of this is 500 series so I can just pull it out / repair or send it off to be repaired if any issues surface. The SSL Big Six in relative terms (looking at other mixers) is damn cheap and if for any reason it becomes unjustifiable to repair that's not a problem. I've pretty much stated thus far that the Big Six has that LFAC sound but not the functionality, however my design has morphed beyond its potential use case scenario. It is now a piecemeal console and that has some advantages, primarily the fact that I've only bought what I needed. I don't track live bands so I've no need for 24 preamps and I still use a DAW on occasion so 20 channels is more than enough. That being said it hasn't been cheap but remember this is a forever setup that I've been looking into for nearly seven years now. Before it was just some Shelfords into an interface with some plugins.. Okay, I've got 12 pre-amps and at most even for tracking drums I only need 8. Although some are flavour pre's (610, 312, Shelford, Stam Helios T69). There's 4 Aux's, two are used up by FX via a PCM 92 and another with an Eventide SP2016. In total I now have 13 channels of compression (2X IGS Tubecore's, Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph, RND Bridge diode, 2X 6176's, 2X Chandler Opto, Stam 2A, 2 X SSL Bus comp (built into the desk) but I'll be picking up a proper G-Comp or SSL Bus+ now it's out). That's split across the inserts of both Big Six's attached to a Lynx Aurora 24. There's also 8 channels of dedicated SSL E series to replace most of the boards "interesting" onboard EQ's, 2X SSL Violets for reverb EQ and a Pultec style on the master bus (because SSL's seem to need them). Finally there's a Faderport 16 for automation and transport controls. Grand total (besides the effects because we're comparing desk to desk here and not including cables or converters). $40K That ain't bad for a 24 channel "console" with dynamics on half the channels (or all of them if I parallel into the bus comps), EQ across the board and some automation. It essentially costs the same as a tricked out Neve 8424 but that also doesn't have anywhere near the amount of functionality. If you are, for some mad reason considering a mid sized console setup it's quite an enticing path to go down in the current market of mixers. I've found a setup that works for me thanks to the Big Six, it wasn't quite what I expected initially but we got there in the end. That's it, finito.. Wanna talk about the weather cause I got nothing? 
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Post by ericn on Apr 19, 2022 12:20:55 GMT -6
Not a jack of all trades any more.This will be my last post on the subject (I promise). At this point I've pretty much replaced my old SSK 4K with a piecemeal setup, it's great for maintenance because most of this is 500 series so I can just pull it out / repair or send it off to be repaired if any issues surface. The SSL Big Six in relative terms (looking at other mixers) is damn cheap and if for any reason it becomes unjustifiable to repair that's not a problem. I've pretty much stated thus far that the Big Six has that LFAC sound but not the functionality, however my design has morphed beyond its potential use case scenario. It is now a piecemeal console and that has some advantages, primarily the fact that I've only bought what I needed. I don't track live bands so I've no need for 24 preamps and I still use a DAW on occasion so 20 channels is more than enough. That being said it hasn't been cheap but remember this is a forever setup that I've been looking into for nearly seven years now. Before it was just some Shelfords into an interface with some plugins.. Okay, I've got 12 pre-amps and at most even for tracking drums I only need 8. Although some are flavour pre's (610, 312, Shelford, Stam Helios T69). There's 4 Aux's, two are used up by FX via a PCM 92 and another with an Eventide SP2016. In total I now have 13 channels of compression (2X IGS Tubecore's, Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph, RND Bridge diode, 2X 6176's, 2X Chandler Opto, Stam 2A, 2 X SSL Bus comp (built into the desk) but I'll be picking up a proper G-Comp or SSL Bus+ now it's out). That's split across the inserts of both Big Six's attached to a Lynx Aurora 24. There's also 8 channels of dedicated SSL E series to replace most of the boards "interesting" onboard EQ's, 2X SSL Violets for reverb EQ and a Pultec style on the master bus (because SSL's seem to need them). Finally there's a Faderport 16 for automation and transport controls. Grand total (besides the effects because we're comparing desk to desk here and not including cables or converters). $40K That ain't bad for a 24 channel "console" with dynamics on half the channels (or all of them if I parallel into the bus comps), EQ across the board and some automation. It essentially costs the same as a tricked out Neve 8424 but that also doesn't have anywhere near the amount of functionality. If you are, for some mad reason considering a mid sized console setup it's quite an enticing path to go down in the current market of mixers. I've found a setup that works for me thanks to the Big Six, it wasn't quite what I expected initially but we got there in the end. That's it, finito.. Wanna talk about the weather cause I got nothing? My hunch is your going to come back with one other minor gripe, the routing isn’t what a 4K is. I say minor because I’m betting you can do 98% with a bunch of bays and some creativity, but everyone I know sort of discovered their own routing tricks on the 4K. ( for me the hardest part would be it ain’t an in-line and I love sticking an FX return on the same strip as the the input). Your smart you will figure it out with minimal dents to the forehead. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 18:47:23 GMT -6
You're most likely gonna shake your head at this one.. As a rule of thumb never buy a car until the facelift model comes out and all the issues have been sorted, same applies to audio gear apparently. I was gonna leave it in the box ready to trade in, this is my third SSL Big Six after all..
After counting $$$'s racking into silly amounts and the SSL being able to fix most of those woes I had to at least unbox this RMA and give it a go. Third time lucky, it sounds fricking amazing.. Nope seriously, I've been A/B'ing with an Aurora for the last six hours and honestly there's just not enough in it.. So, first one sounded a bit weird and I returned it, second one had PSU pulses, dodgy buttons and weak jacks.. The third? Impeccable, SSL if you're going to offshore sort your damn QA out..
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Post by RealNoob on Aug 11, 2023 21:18:02 GMT -6
Am I understanding Big Six correctly in that…
1. Receives usb audio, converts to analog, sums in analog and converts back to digital for usb return?
2. Can do #1 and be your interface for monitoring as well?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2023 7:10:04 GMT -6
Am I understanding Big Six correctly in that… 1. Receives usb audio, converts to analog, sums in analog and converts back to digital for usb return? 2. Can do #1 and be your interface for monitoring as well?
It can yeah, currently I have a stereo out on channels 11/12 for music playback (monitoring) and use channel 1 for vocal tracking. That goes to a cue for FX but because I record with channel 1 only and none of the FX gets recorded. There's a lot of routing flexibility and buttons so like any half decent desk takes a bit of getting used to (especially the master section). Although when you do it's far simpler than MOTU's matrix that's for sure  .. |
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Post by RealNoob on Aug 12, 2023 12:41:29 GMT -6
Am I understanding Big Six correctly in that… 1. Receives usb audio, converts to analog, sums in analog and converts back to digital for usb return? 2. Can do #1 and be your interface for monitoring as well?
It can yeah, currently I have a stereo out on channels 11/12 for music playback (monitoring) and use channel 1 for vocal tracking. That goes to a cue for FX but because I record with channel 1 only and none of the FX gets recorded. There's a lot of routing flexibility and buttons so like any half decent desk takes a bit of getting used to (especially the master section). Although when you do it's far simpler than MOTU's matrix that's for sure .. So essentially you are saying yes it can received usb, convert and sum in analog, go back to usb while handling monitoring duties and… can do more with routing for tracking, etc. If all that, it’s a sweet piece kit especially with inspired EQs and compression. I also see it has insert points everywhere so I could hook the master buss chain in place. I have to see though if that is before or after the SSL inspired MB comp. |
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 10, 2024 23:12:34 GMT -6
OK, I LOVE the Big Six. It took 1-2 weeks to get an understanding but now, it will be a big part of my mixes. Here's how I am utilizing it. First, it is my interface for everything. I have it on the left side and the Heritage Ram on the right. I use the Ram for switching but the monitor knob on the B6 seems closer, even though it's not. Weird I know. Can't explain it but it works great for monitor volume. I have been able to route Mac OS sound to channels 15/16 to the B6 and there by it doesn't interfere with mix settings. What I run through it: - Drums and bass to 1/2
- Vocals to 3/4
They get the real channels - EQ, Comp. I also run: - Keys to 5/6
- Guitar to 7/8
- Orchestral to 9/10
- Effects to 11/12
It then sums, hits the Buss Comp and the 500 Rack and back in on 15/16. Once in, monitoring comes from 15/16 Aux input on B6 and then monitor section.
What I like about it:
I love the channel controls. I start top down with SHMC on the DAW master, just tickling the meters. I have the SSL B6 comp doing 2-3db and the drums and vocal comps flashing the first lights on channel comps - just touching peaks. I check the compression frequently to maintain that. Just for clarity. I hit the Tape sims, UV500 (corrective EQ), currently bypassing the Xpressor and then sweetening with the IAA LH95s (Phenomenal). No compression the rack. I have not yet tried the LMC. I need to. I have another set of channel pairs I could run a smash feed to.
The on-board EQs have somewhat strange selections in paper but really are helpful. They are powerful, a dab will do ya, usually. So I can EQ all my busses on the board with mild compression on Drums/Bass and Vox. The top end EQ isn't airy - seems more like presence to me which is still hugely helpful.
The converters don't disappoint. I haven't heard a problem yet. I have an Orion Studio, Rev 2X2, MOTU Ultalight and the board. They don't sound the same but all work well.
it has a slight mid-forward, a bit punchy and openness in the mid-range sound. Between it and the tape sims in Luna, I have more depth, space and openness than I have ever personally experienced. It's easy to A/B the Luna sims. I did try to A/B with mixer in and out. One thing that really stands out is that it handle transients a certain way, seems to help tame them really well for a first mix step. On my current mix, I noticed it really keeps hold of the snare. I can push it a bit and it doesn't sound gangly like when transients are all over the place.
I know I have more tp learn about it but it's doing a heck of a job so far.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 11, 2024 6:06:15 GMT -6
OK, I LOVE the Big Six. It took 1-2 weeks to get an understanding but now, it will be a big part of my mixes. Here's how I am utilizing it. First, it is my interface for everything. I have it on the left side and the Heritage Ram on the right. I use the Ram for switching but the monitor knob on the B6 seems closer, even though it's not. Weird I know. Can't explain it but it works great for monitor volume. I have been able to route Mac OS sound to channels 15/16 to the B6 and there by it doesn't interfere with mix settings. What I run through it: - Drums and bass to 1/2
- Vocals to 3/4
They get the real channels - EQ, Comp. I also run: - Keys to 5/6
- Guitar to 7/8
- Orchestral to 9/10
- Effects to 11/12
It then sums, hits the Buss Comp and the 500 Rack and back in on 15/16. Once in, monitoring comes from 15/16 Aux input on B6 and then monitor section.
What I like about it:
I love the channel controls. I start top down with SHMC on the DAW master, just tickling the meters. I have the SSL B6 comp doing 2-3db and the drums and vocal comps flashing the first lights on channel comps - just touching peaks. I check the compression frequently to maintain that. Just for clarity. I hit the Tape sims, UV500 (corrective EQ), currently bypassing the Xpressor and then sweetening with the IAA LH95s (Phenomenal). No compression the rack. I have not yet tried the LMC. I need to. I have another set of channel pairs I could run a smash feed to.
The on-board EQs have somewhat strange selections in paper but really are helpful. They are powerful, a dab will do ya, usually. So I can EQ all my busses on the board with mild compression on Drums/Bass and Vox. The top end EQ isn't airy - seems more like presence to me which is still hugely helpful.
The converters don't disappoint. I haven't heard a problem yet. I have an Orion Studio, Rev 2X2, MOTU Ultalight and the board. They don't sound the same but all work well.
it has a slight mid-forward, a bit punchy and openness in the mid-range sound. Between it and the tape sims in Luna, I have more depth, space and openness than I have ever personally experienced. It's easy to A/B the Luna sims. I did try to A/B with mixer in and out. One thing that really stands out is that it handle transients a certain way, seems to help tame them really well for a first mix step. On my current mix, I noticed it really keeps hold of the snare. I can push it a bit and it doesn't sound gangly like when transients are all over the place.
I know I have more tp learn about it but it's doing a heck of a job so far.
Do you have to use the SSL on board USB interface converters to get the full compliment of I/O? |
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 11, 2024 12:12:10 GMT -6
Do you have to use the SSL on board USB interface converters to get the full compliment of I/O? Not at all. In fact, i had no clue it was an interface until it arrived - lol. i thought it was just a bigger six, literally. it just makes it easy. |
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