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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 7, 2021 19:10:10 GMT -6
I can snag an MCI 2” 24 track machine for a stupidly low price.
Once I’m out of the weeds with the house remodel from hell, I’m going to be building a studio in my barn. Looking forward to it, when this machine kinda came up for grabs it got me thinking.
My 2” usage has been on nothing but Studers and I love them dearly, but don’t think I’d ever shell out the cash to get one.
I have 2 main reasons for getting this thing.
1 - tape transfers. I’ve done a fair amount of tape baking and transfers and it’s a pretty quick way to pick up a buck.
2 - pet projects and ones I’m emotionally invested in. I’ve got absolutely no dreams of using this thing every day to track bands. I’ve got no reason to be an “all analogue” house. I know that even if a band really wants to cut to tape, they either won’t have the budget or honestly just won’t be good enough to make it happen for themselves.
So - what say you? This machine is from ‘78. Good head report from JRF. I know it won’t be as reliable as the Studers. I know the molex connectors suck and I’ll have to deal with that whole shit show. I’m good with a soldering iron and not afraid to have to jump in.
Some machines had transformers and some didn’t? Good bad and the ugly? Help me out here and either push me over the edge or tell me to run like hell and don’t look back!
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 7, 2021 19:25:23 GMT -6
well there’s that studio in Nashville that runs the mci refurb business.
I had a demo master from them thought it sounded great. Guess bottom line is, what’s the max you want to drop getting it working properly?
The place in Nashville sells them completely done too .
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 7, 2021 19:27:12 GMT -6
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Post by aremos on Nov 7, 2021 19:39:04 GMT -6
Wow! Haven't seen or heard them in years - many. Were made right here in South Florida & then SONY bought them & put their name on it. Were used at Criteria & were exceptional machines. It was always between MCI & Studer. The problem with these machines, I guess, would be MAINTENANCE. (Ideal scenario: record & transfer immediately to Pro Tools)
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Post by ragan on Nov 7, 2021 23:10:44 GMT -6
I dunno man. Sounds to me like you're clear-eyed about what it would (and wouldn't) mean and it might be a fun adventure. If I were in your shoes, as you describe them, I'd go for it.
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Post by drumsound on Nov 8, 2021 0:09:23 GMT -6
I had one of the people who's done some work on my MCI describe them like Oldsmobile. Generally well built and will continue to do what you ask with some fairly simple maintenance from time to time.
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Post by recordingengineer on Nov 8, 2021 0:37:10 GMT -6
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Post by jaba on Nov 8, 2021 8:24:19 GMT -6
I dunno man. Sounds to me like you're clear-eyed about what it would (and wouldn't) mean and it might be a fun adventure. If I were in your shoes, as you describe them, I'd go for it. Pretty much sumed up my thoughts, Ragan. I've spent years and many sessions with a JH-16 and yes, it's an old machine that needs some love now and again, but it's generally been very solid and sounds wonderful. If you pull the trigger and it's working well, I wouldn't rule out using it for some band bed tracks if they're good: - Great workflow. Not staring at a screen and I love the short built in ear break of rewinding to listen to a take. - Once you've got takes, transfer to DAW for edits and overdub. Take this chance to use your outboard gear to sweeten even further. - Mixing is easier. A bit of tape saturation, plus sweetening during the transfer, gets you far before even hitting your converters. - If you can mult your inputs to your DAW, run that as a backup just in case the MCI gets funky mid-take (extremely rare over here). - Perhaps a no-no to some, but I've used some reels of tape many times without any real negatives. Tell a potential client you've got a few to rent and keep their costs way down. Do it and have fun!
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 8, 2021 8:44:42 GMT -6
“Do it and have fun!”: words to live by!
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 8, 2021 9:36:19 GMT -6
Maintenance and tape supply is the thing. But what a fun ride it would be. I'd grab it if its affordable. It doesn't have to be the daily machine so I guess that level of reliability isn't necessary... but I've foregone that tape machine idea myself. Used to think it would be great but... parts and maintenance.
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Post by drbill on Nov 8, 2021 9:55:32 GMT -6
Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance.........
My comments do not come with emotional visions of what it could be like rocking a tape machine. Been there, done that. I had a small studio without on-staff tech running LFAC's and JH tape machines - synchronized to video for a couple decades.
Near the end of my MCI JH-24 analog days, it used to cost me almost $500 every time I turned on the JH-24. Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. I Love, LOVE the machine and it's tone, love the workflow with the great LA musicians, and hated the overall experience of an older tape machine. It alone cost me so many creative sessions - waiting for a tech or sending musicians home.
Being good with a soldering iron doesn't cut it. These things are tricky. I had one of the 2-3 best MCI tech's in LA, and it would still take him hours to track down problems. Getting in GOOD tech's who were not specialized in MCI's almost broke me after the good MCI tech's disappeared or quit working. Keeping them running is not a simple game. Then there's parts - it was difficult 15 years ago..... In a 2021 post pandemic world?? Haha! Your best bet is to have 2-3 running machines that you can scavenge off of.
In 2021, I can't imagine there is enough client money out there to keep the machine running well. It has to be a well funded labor of love - with a lot of downtime to make it work.
Honestly, there is not enough money to pay me to go back.
My MCI experienced $0.02. Devalued to $0.00043726 for streaming royalties....
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Post by christopher on Nov 8, 2021 10:47:45 GMT -6
Yeah, owning a tape machine today requires you to become the repair tech. I have a 2 track and there's plenty of time-wasting-head-scratching moments just trying to get the best out of 2 tracks, and that's while its working! When they go down, it can be like staring into a void of helplessness. (its been working for a few years straight now) Thankfully, thank god(!) we don't have to call the techs and open the wallet in the heat of the moment anymore, tape is just a fun luxury. Unfortunately Steven Sadler passed away recently and that is a huge loss for the MCI world. I never tried it, but he had a cheap annual subscription with lots of praise, he taught people how to fix stuff very cheaply zooming with them daily for hours. There is a lot more knowledge spread out thanks to him, including Chris Mara. I have two JH110's actually, one is 24volt transformer mutt, other is later 15v transformerless. They sound the same MCI tone, the transformers give a slightly rich feeling, xfomerless is cleaner, a little less hiss. Tape speed is more difference. Both decks will turn a sandwich into a panini. Great tool for stuff that is too raw, this will cook it. IME almost all MCI problems aren't expensive to fix, and often they are free.. much easier than Studer... its mostly learning to be a detective and figuring out the puzzle. MCI connectors are tin and can oxidize, the molex pins can strain and crack the solder joints or crack/lift PCB traces, looms are heavy and can strain things, the IC sockets and IC's get goopy and cause poor connections. My deck was down a while before I found the PSU molex had cracked a trace near the solder joints, reflow wasn't a fix, I had to go further. MCI PSU molex pins are a common area to reflow to fix problems. A pencil eraser can clean up IC contacts. Some people replace all connectors with gold molex pins and sockets/ new IC sockets, though that's optional, it can still work with the old stuff. There is a tape group where guys share knowledge groups.io/g/Studer-Sony-MCI-Pro
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 8, 2021 12:42:49 GMT -6
Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance......... My comments do not come with emotional visions of what it could be like rocking a tape machine. Been there, done that. I had a small studio without on-staff tech running LFAC's and JH tape machines - synchronized to video for a couple decades. Near the end of my MCI JH-24 analog days, it used to cost me almost $500 every time I turned on the JH-24. Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. I Love, LOVE the machine and it's tone, love the workflow with the great LA musicians, and hated the overall experience of an older tape machine. It alone cost me so many creative sessions - waiting for a tech or sending musicians home. Being good with a soldering iron doesn't cut it. These things are tricky. I had one of the 2-3 best MCI tech's in LA, and it would still take him hours to track down problems. Getting in GOOD tech's who were not specialized in MCI's almost broke me after the good MCI tech's disappeared or quit working. Keeping them running is not a simple game. Then there's parts - it was difficult 15 years ago..... In a 2021 post pandemic world?? Haha! Your best bet is to have 2-3 running machines that you can scavenge off of. In 2021, I can't imagine there is enough client money out there to keep the machine running well. It has to be a well funded labor of love - with a lot of downtime to make it work. Honestly, there is not enough money to pay me to go back. My MCI experienced $0.02. Devalued to $0.00043726 for streaming royalties.... Your experience has been seconded by many. However, the refurbed 2 track MCI machines by Mara intrigue me—record vocals through it, process a drum buss, mix buss etc. I’m wondering if the maintenance nightmares would be similar with a simpler two track approach. Is that something you’ve tried Bill?
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 8, 2021 12:47:01 GMT -6
Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance, Maintainance......... My comments do not come with emotional visions of what it could be like rocking a tape machine. Been there, done that. I had a small studio without on-staff tech running LFAC's and JH tape machines - synchronized to video for a couple decades. Near the end of my MCI JH-24 analog days, it used to cost me almost $500 every time I turned on the JH-24. Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. I Love, LOVE the machine and it's tone, love the workflow with the great LA musicians, and hated the overall experience of an older tape machine. It alone cost me so many creative sessions - waiting for a tech or sending musicians home. Being good with a soldering iron doesn't cut it. These things are tricky. I had one of the 2-3 best MCI tech's in LA, and it would still take him hours to track down problems. Getting in GOOD tech's who were not specialized in MCI's almost broke me after the good MCI tech's disappeared or quit working. Keeping them running is not a simple game. Then there's parts - it was difficult 15 years ago..... In a 2021 post pandemic world?? Haha! Your best bet is to have 2-3 running machines that you can scavenge off of. In 2021, I can't imagine there is enough client money out there to keep the machine running well. It has to be a well funded labor of love - with a lot of downtime to make it work. Honestly, there is not enough money to pay me to go back. My MCI experienced $0.02. Devalued to $0.00043726 for streaming royalties.... Your experience has been seconded by many. However, the refurbed 2 track MCI machines by Mara intrigue me—record vocals through it, process a drum buss, mix buss etc. I’m wondering if the maintenance nightmares would be similar with a simpler two track approach. Is that something you’ve tried Bill? I would be curious, too. It seems to me that tape machines, sort of like cars, need to be run. My Otari sat too long(I used it for 2 bus stuff) and it doesn't work(again). But I would think a mixdown deck would provide some sonic benefits with somewhat less maintenance depending(I mean, 2 tracks vs 16 has to be a little less, no?)
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Nov 8, 2021 12:54:11 GMT -6
Mara Machines also has an iOS app, MaraTapeCal, that walks you calibrating your machine. Has some in-app purchases for tools and supplies as well. Full disclosure, I developed the app for Chris in 2018. I do not make any money off of it. I think it would be a lot of fun to have one but I get the negatives against it. If I had the room for it I'd love to have one of Mara Machines units though.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 8, 2021 13:02:34 GMT -6
I used one for over a decade. The good news about MCI is that no exotic "unobtanium" parts were used and they sound great, better than a stock Studer when they are working properly.
The bad news is cold solder joints everywhere and the machine won't work without the remote. The later JH-24s with transformers are best. The caps will all need replacement at some point. A great price may mean it needs a lot of work but it is work any solder-jockey can do.
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 8, 2021 13:14:50 GMT -6
I used one for over a decade. The good news about MCI is that no exotic "unobtanium" parts were used and they sound great, better than a stock Studer when they are working properly. The bad news is cold solder joints everywhere and the machine won't work without the remote. The later JH-24s with transformers are best. The caps will all need replacement at some point. A great price may mean it needs a lot of work but it is work any solder-jockey can do. Better than a stock Studer! That is very cool. What did you feel was different, if I may ask?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 8, 2021 13:18:15 GMT -6
Stock Studers had no headroom and a far less punchy low-end. This could be fixed by beefing up the power supplies on each card.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 8, 2021 13:21:47 GMT -6
I had a record made on one @ 30 IPS in '90-'91, tracks still sound great.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 8, 2021 13:35:17 GMT -6
I think, one really needs to consider the total cost side of the ledger including either your downtime or lost time, purchase, parts, etc., and be frank about your level of skill.
When you have a number and don’t be conservative, then look at Mala. Is it a cost or an investment?
You get a completely rebuilt machine, running at factory spec, support from Mala and one that will easier to calibrate.
With the Mala, you will get many years of largely trouble free use, whereas with an older non rebuilt machine, it will largely be the opposite.
Which option is really the better expenditure ?
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Post by christopher on Nov 8, 2021 13:45:55 GMT -6
One thing that helps offset the cost if you have a tape machine sitting around always have it on and ready to use for tape delay. That way it’s getting use and get to see the lamps lit up. The reel can be old, the alignment can be totally wrong, it’s still so satisfying.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 8, 2021 13:58:48 GMT -6
A $12K JH-24 today from Mara sounds like a deal, compared to inflation adjusted $12K for who knows what actual condition back in '99.
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Post by christophert on Nov 8, 2021 14:06:01 GMT -6
I ran 4 tape machines for a couple of decades. Ampex MM1200 16tk and 24tk / MCI JH24 and a Studer A80. The Ampex ruled for sound, and I found it was easier to keep going as I had plenty of spare cards to drop in. I was lucky that I could change to another machine if one went down. Whenever I swapped away from the Ampex - it was a letdown, as the Ampex had so much better more open vibrant top end and punchy AF. The MCI sounded really "vintage" - I never really loved the sound. My techs made LOTS of money I miss my Ampex machines - would love to have another 2" 16Tk some day < the ultimate sounding multi track. I doubt there are any around in amazing condition. About to enter the tape machine world again, with a fully restored, recapped and modded A80 1 inch 8 track with a Frostbox remote & a A80 1/2 inch 2 Tk. Hoping for a good run without too many issues. If you are going to run a MCI 24tk - I suggest a full recap, and have a decent set of spares on hand.
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Post by Omicron9 on Nov 8, 2021 14:07:03 GMT -6
....snip!.... Honestly, there is not enough money to pay me to go back. ....end snip!.... ^^^^ This x 1,000. At least. Plus tape costs. Plus tape hiss; this one reason alone made me strongly dislike (strongly) tape back in the pre-digital days when it was the only option. Plus tape degradation with each pass over the heads. Plus making sure you have safety copies. Plus the -1 generation lack of fidelity with each safety. Plus plus plus.... on and on. To quote Dr. Bill: there is not enough money to pay me to go back. I have a pet theory. This theory is only aimed at folks that have never used tape, not the experienced folks on this forum. But I theorize that for people that have never used tape and are sure they want to and are convinced of tape's superiority without ever having used it: I suspect for some of them: if tape looked exactly like a hard drive, they wouldn't be interested in it. Just a pet theory that is not aimed at anyone here. It's a random thought I'm randomly throwing out there while I randomly don my flame suit. -09
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Post by drbill on Nov 8, 2021 15:49:31 GMT -6
....snip!.... Honestly, there is not enough money to pay me to go back. ....end snip!.... ^^^^ This x 1,000. At least. <snipity snip> It's a random thought I'm randomly throwing out there while I randomly don my flame suit. -09 No flame suit needed. 99% of those yearning for tape never had to run a for profit analog studio in the past where DAW's were not a "thing". Sorry, that's been my experience with those yearning for tape. You often find threads about which tape machine, what kind of tape, etc., but after they actually "DO" it, you rarely hear another peep. Wonder why? To answer another earlier question - nope. Never did a 2 channel only tape studio. Always 2" multitrack to 1/4" mix down. re: MCI's and Calibration. You'd BETTER LEARN to do it. After you've had to recall 2-3X's a day for years, worn out countless tweaker tools, and have bad knees, you will have a better idea of what it means to run tape. Even if you do not change tape formulations between clients, and always run at the same levels, and MCI needs constant attention to calibration if you want to get the most out of it. Plan to spend 30-45 minutes every day calibrating. Maybe 15-20 if only doing touch ups. And yeah, I do like the MCI's better than the Studers sonically. As much as I like transformers, I did not have any issues with the transformerLESS MCI's and actually preferred them (maybe cause they were newer) over the transformer JH's. If for some reason, someone threatened my life, and forced me to run tape again, the MCI (or as mentioned earlier - AMPEX if available) would be my choice, and I'd buy a MARA machine - not a budget "it's running great" ebay special. The money and aggrivation saved would be worth 10X's the extra cost of one. And yeah, Ampex MM1000 2" 16 track was a fREAKING BEAST, but it's was like punching in a semi-truck. What a sound though!!!
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