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Post by bossanova on Nov 1, 2021 14:38:57 GMT -6
Hey all. This is a personal one. My teeth have drifted out of alignment in the past decade or so (I’m only 36), and somewhere in the past 2-3 years I’ve picked up a nasty whistle on my sibilant sounds when I record myself both speaking and singing. It shifts a bit here and there but it’s pitched at about 5.9k, sometimes going as low as 5.5 and as high as 6.5.
De-Essers don’t seem to touch it because it has so much pitch content (they get the white noise portion but don’t suppress the whistle) and it’s so loud compared to the rest of the spectrum in those moments that dynamic EQ doesn’t do much either. The only thing that can “kill it” it is spectral editing by hand in RX, but that kills the consonant sound too most of the time.
I’ve tried every mic position I can think of, including the age-old head turn on those sounds, but the pitched aspect also seems to make it somewhat unidirectional. Everything I have, from an SM7B to a Serrano 87 also picks it up.
Does anyone have solutions other than dental work? I know that’s the best long term fix but that’s also a long term process.
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Post by bossanova on Nov 1, 2021 16:09:29 GMT -6
This is an example of a bad one. Attachments:
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Post by chessparov on Nov 1, 2021 18:52:27 GMT -6
Got Ribbon? Chris
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 1, 2021 20:13:19 GMT -6
[...] I’ve tried every mic position I can think of, including the age-old head turn on those sounds, but the pitched aspect also seems to make it somewhat unidirectional. Everything I have, from an SM7B to a Serrano 87 also picks it up. Does anyone have solutions other than dental work? I know that’s the best long term fix but that’s also a long term process. First of all, I just want to acknowledge that this is indeed a tough problem to solve. Your number one action item as a SINGER (which may ultimately prove unattainable) is to learn to sing differently, whether by teaching yourself, or employing a good voice teacher.
But that's a different hat than the engineer's hat...
Now, donning the engineer's hat: When you say you've tried "every mic position [you] can think of," I'm assuming one of those positions is 2-3ft out and 1-2ft above your head, pointing down-ish towards your forehead or nose. If you watch footage of VO being recorded for something like an animated Disney film, you'll see this technique used on at least some of the characters/actors. You have to fight yourself as a vocalist to not stretch your neck up and sing up towards the mic. I've occasionally put a pop filter in a "normal" position and instructed a singer to sing into that, while actually micing from above like I described. I can't say that it works every time, but it's often enough of an improvement in this type of case to make the vocal usable.
It's worth a try. Try your Serrano 87 there, and try each polar pattern. Sometimes one pattern works better for a problem like this.
And Chris's suggestion is also worth trying: a ribbon. Or a flatter dynamic mic. The SM7B can actually get a little edgy in that range on some singers. The RE-20 is a little smoother around there and the Beyerdynamic M88 has a tiny dip around 5k-ish IIRC.
Also, what preamps are you using? Some pres accentuate esses more than others...
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Post by EmRR on Nov 1, 2021 20:37:02 GMT -6
I had a guy with the whistle a few years ago. It was a rockabilly retro thing luckily, the best thing I found was a Fat Head ribbon as the other mark williams described, above him and pointed down. I tracked with a dbx 902. It still took software de-essing after that, and it was slathered in tape echo and plate reverb too.
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Post by reddirt on Nov 1, 2021 21:18:33 GMT -6
If it's the sound you make , technically it possibly won't matter what mic or how you place it. Try a little gum to fill holes between teeth that may be causing it. Cheers, Ross
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Post by chessparov on Nov 1, 2021 23:55:24 GMT -6
I've only have sung/tried a Coles 4038 one time. But boy that's a mic, I'd put way up for something like this. Honestly though, it'd be better for someone with much more experience... To properly process my vocal.
FWIW a 4038 was used on the lead singer of Sixpence None The Richer-Leigh Nash's, studio vocals. Chris
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Post by anders on Nov 2, 2021 3:42:49 GMT -6
Three possible solutions which might work:
I heard an interview with a Swedish singer who had a tooth gap with a whistle. Her solution was singing close to the pop shield, and placing a small piece of gaffa tape on the pop shield precisely where her whistle emanated from.
Another one is blocking off your gap mechanically with dental wax. You roll it into a small ball and insert it in your gap.
The third one is the most foolproof (but also harder to pull off): Unlearn your current way of pronouncing S'es, and place a slightly more rearward part of your tongue ever so slightly further back in your palate, so your teeth aren't as central to creating your S. If you just make a long Ssssss sound while moving your tongue about, you might find a good sweet spot.
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Post by anders on Nov 2, 2021 5:18:55 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 2, 2021 6:19:59 GMT -6
This happened to me too once after some dental work. Fortunately, it went away after a couple of months.
I've learned how to De-Ess myself, sometimes I forget, but it can be done. I recently mixed a track of a friend and in one place, nothing could change one particular big "S". It was just the way he sang it. I said either live with it or recut, because I've exhausted all options. A really high end mic like a vintage U47 or Elam 251 can help a lot, but still not completely resolve the issue.
Until you can fix it at a dentists office, a ribbon might be the best workaround. I think the Cascade Vin_-Jet with the Lundahl transformer is a bargain and a great mic.
Good luck.
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Post by bossanova on Nov 2, 2021 12:04:12 GMT -6
This happened to me too once after some dental work. Fortunately, it went away after a couple of months. I've learned how to De-Ess myself, sometimes I forget, but it can be done. I recently mixed a track of a friend and in one place, nothing could change one particular big "S". It was just the way he sang it. I said either live with it or recut, because I've exhausted all options. A really high end mic like a vintage U47 or Elam 251 can help a lot, but still not completely resolve the issue. Until you can fix it at a dentists office, a ribbon might be the best workaround. I think the Cascade Vin_-Jet with the Lundahl transformer is a bargain and a great mic. Good luck. I have a potential workaround of sorts that I'm trying to embrace as a compromise: since the frequency is so consistent, I can EQ a notch or two there and then boost the high end with a shelf to compensate. It sounds pretty weird in solo, but it's the kind of thing that might sound alright in a track. Unfortunately, I don't think anything short of braces is going to fix this because it's actually a gap that's developed in one side of my bite between 3-4 top and bottom front teeth rather than just a space between a couple of them. Long story short, never stop wearing your retainer after you have braces and then let your dog chew it up after that.
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Post by bossanova on Nov 2, 2021 12:19:19 GMT -6
[...] I’ve tried every mic position I can think of, including the age-old head turn on those sounds, but the pitched aspect also seems to make it somewhat unidirectional. Everything I have, from an SM7B to a Serrano 87 also picks it up. Does anyone have solutions other than dental work? I know that’s the best long term fix but that’s also a long term process. First of all, I just want to acknowledge that this is indeed a tough problem to solve. Your number one action item as a SINGER (which may ultimately prove unattainable) is to learn to sing differently, whether by teaching yourself, or employing a good voice teacher.
But that's a different hat than the engineer's hat...
Now, donning the engineer's hat: When you say you've tried "every mic position [you] can think of," I'm assuming one of those positions is 2-3ft out and 1-2ft above your head, pointing down-ish towards your forehead or nose. If you watch footage of VO being recorded for something like an animated Disney film, you'll see this technique used on at least some of the characters/actors. You have to fight yourself as a vocalist to not stretch your neck up and sing up towards the mic. I've occasionally put a pop filter in a "normal" position and instructed a singer to sing into that, while actually micing from above like I described. I can't say that it works every time, but it's often enough of an improvement in this type of case to make the vocal usable.
It's worth a try. Try your Serrano 87 there, and try each polar pattern. Sometimes one pattern works better for a problem like this.
And Chris's suggestion is also worth trying: a ribbon. Or a flatter dynamic mic. The SM7B can actually get a little edgy in that range on some singers. The RE-20 is a little smoother around there and the Beyerdynamic M88 has a tiny dip around 5k-ish IIRC.
Also, what preamps are you using? Some pres accentuate esses more than others...
Update Edit: I tried from 18 inches away in that position, in Figure 8 with GIK panels above and behind the mic to baffle the rear diaphragm. You can still hear the whistle but it’s not piercing in the same way as the close miced vocals. The downside is that there’s a fair bit of room ambiance from the added distance. It’s a compromise in the short term for certain uses, for sure. ——— If I could get away with that far without room leakage it would probably solve the problem, and some other vocal issues as well. The only time I've done it in the past is when I've done vocal and piano live takes with a room mic to capture a natural performance with room ambience. In a couple months I might have a big enough ceiling cloud in place to where I can get away with that combined with a figure 8.
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Post by drumsound on Nov 3, 2021 7:50:10 GMT -6
The dental wax/gum solution seems like it would be a good one. You should consider trying it, and putting it in the gap well before you go to sing, so you can get used to it being in your mouth.
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Post by svart on Nov 3, 2021 8:05:17 GMT -6
I was going to suggest a little gum on your teeth, but I see others already suggested it. I also agree with Reddirt that it's a delivery issue, not a mic issue. Not much you can do but try to fix it at the source I'm afraid.
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Post by bossanova on Nov 4, 2021 19:01:49 GMT -6
Hey all, I've managed to tame it into submission with a combination of mic position, Fabfilter DS at high GR, wideband settings, and Soothe 2 to smooth over further with dynamic EQ.
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Post by Ward on Nov 5, 2021 6:45:16 GMT -6
Hey all, I've managed to tame it into submission with a combination of mic position, Fabfilter DS at high GR, wideband settings, and Soothe 2 to smooth over further with dynamic EQ. That's great to hear. I was going to suggest a 'dental dam' to bridge the opening without having dental work done. You could always consider that or the dental wax option at another tme.
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Post by chriskeys on Nov 5, 2021 17:23:11 GMT -6
Hello, I have the same problem as you. I have been singing for years in a rather sibilant microphone , which doesn’t help. My whistle zone is located at about the same frequencies as you. I tried everything, from the placement of the microphone to my pronunciation posture, it drove me crazy for years. Lately I’ve finally been able to solve this problem by doing one simple thing, which is to place 3 fingers , index finger, middle finger and ring finger, on your cheeks and press extremely lightly on them while you sing, This will refocus your mouth opening and the resulting wheezing. It is important not to press too hard, it would have the effect of obscuring your interpretation. Your fingers are only for guiding . it is important to place them a little apart and bring the skin of the cheeks slightly on the front , but just barely. You don’t have to feel a change in the sound of your voice, or maybe just some consonant overtures but nothing more. Try this, and come back and tell us what it is .
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Post by chessparov on Nov 5, 2021 17:33:18 GMT -6
I just practiced this outside... And Bullwinkle showed up! (with Flying Squirrel) Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 9, 2021 13:08:22 GMT -6
If it's the sound you make , technically it possibly won't matter what mic or how you place it. Try a little gum to fill holes between teeth that may be causing it. Cheers, Ross Beat me to it. When I got dentures they came with a whistle. I got rid of it with my Dremel Moto-tool and a bit of acoustic knowledge.
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Post by bossanova on Nov 9, 2021 15:09:10 GMT -6
Further potential improvements: I added an additional nylon pop filter (2 total, 1 inch apart), switched back to cardioid, and moved in closer while still keeping the capsule off axis. The added low mids seem to help, and the resulting midrange is still clear but not as bright/sibilant as it was previously.
I’ll almost certainly have to shelve some lows in that combination, but I’m hearing that I like the sound being a bit darker to start with and having room to brighten to taste rather than having a brighter, distanced capture with less body.
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Post by bossanova on Aug 4, 2022 18:04:46 GMT -6
Bit of an update here: 1. I went to see my dentist. He said my developing the whistle is within the normal range of fluctuations in tooth alignment, etc, that occurs with aging, and that fixing it would be the much more expensive purview of an orthodontist. 2. The wax isn’t of much help because the whistle is a product of multiple teeth along the bite line. 3. Unfortunately, after the initial results my LDC with the treble boost was still very unhelpful in this area, even at added distance and off axis. 4.I finally found an extreme workaround: an SM58 through my GAP 73 Premier, with the capsule 6 inches from my mouth, pointing downward from 45 degrees above. The SNR isn’t ideal by any means, but it brings the whistles down to a level that’s tame-able by Waves Sibilance, and does wonders for other mouth noises to boot.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 4, 2022 22:21:23 GMT -6
Maybe try an SM7b if you're going that route? It might be just that much better that you can live with the results.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 4, 2022 22:29:13 GMT -6
So - are you sure it’s coming from your mouth? Could it be an overtone in your room? A certain frequency that’s causing a resonance?
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Post by chessparov on Aug 4, 2022 23:12:48 GMT -6
Not near the level of others here but... IMHO a Coles 4038 ought to help a lot. Chris
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Post by bossanova on Aug 5, 2022 8:07:50 GMT -6
So - are you sure it’s coming from your mouth? Could it be an overtone in your room? A certain frequency that’s causing a resonance? Unfortunately, yeah. When I breathe slowly and make an S sound through my teeth you can hear it whistling like a tea kettle. My dog will actually turn her head towards me when it happens. The pitch can vary but it most often shows up as a spike at 5.8 k as if it was coming from a tone generator.
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