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Post by indrasnet on Oct 26, 2024 19:34:08 GMT -6
Yo! Yes; I'm running the new MIOConsole functionality through its paces, and I installed the Mk4 upgrade last year. Here's the latency I'm seeing. I'll try to be as context-specific as possible because RTL varies greatly depending on what the heck we're referring to... First, with Mk4 and the new MIOConsole you can now select different conversion filter modes. Here's a screenshot of what that looks like:  Of those four options, the new, default filtering is Low Latency Minimum Phase, and you can see the computed latency for it. The old, non Mk4 boxes used the High Attenuation Linear Phase by default -- and you were stuck with it. Here's what that looks like:  I've been alternating back and forth between the new and old filter settings and have noticed a slight difference. The old, High Attenuation Linear Phase, setting seems to be a tighter sound -- a bit more constrained, while the new Low Latency Minimum Phase setting sounds a bit more open and spacious. As far as what Logic Pro thinks... I noticed more latency than expected for with external processing. However, overdub latency is super low. Here's what I'm getting: - recording latency (as shown in Logic's "Audio->Devices" setting: 1.9 ms roundtrip (0.9 ms output). This is with a 32 sample I/O buffer size @96 kHz - latency using external processing of tracks (as shown in Logic's I/O plugin): 91 samples. This is with the MIO safety offsets at 0.6 ms. I think the recording latency is pretty good -- I mean, 1.9 ms is only about 2 feet of sound travel. I don't know other converters because I've been using MH for 19 years now. When I'm recording overdubs to backing tracks I just use the MIOConsole mixer to monitor both the DAW 1/2 output and the mic(s) that I'm using for the overdub (or new track). Everything always sounds great, with no latency. So, I'm not sure why latency is an issue for some. Is it the latency induced during outboard processing? Mark, I know you are sensitive to latency. Can anyone help me understand the issue? Thanks! So are these numbers using USB connection? |
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Post by plinker on Oct 26, 2024 19:45:47 GMT -6
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Post by plinker on Oct 26, 2024 19:56:38 GMT -6
The MHLink is supposed to be faster than USB now, at least if you're on a MKIV. At least that's how I understand it. Nice, you all have got me curious about the upgrade now. I hadn't seen anything advertised about that dramatic of MHLink driver improvements in real DAW use (just a slight reduction in hw converter latency specs w/ phase filter and mkiv) but now I'm going to contact MH about the changes. If true, it's a much more elegant solution for my use. My sincere opinion. First, I think the MK4 upgrade is not that big a deal. Personally, I'm more of a technologist than recordist, so staying up to date is important to me, and I bought the MK4 upgrades at a significantly reduced price. Second, I'm struggling to hear a MEANINGFUL difference. Yes; I hear the differences between converter filter modes, but I don't know how to evaluate them. I think converter fetish is beyond nuts (for me). I buy, and upgrade, my MH boxes because of the tremendous functionality that it provides me, both at my day job (which is quite complex), and at my recording hobby. That's me without any clothes. Take my advice for what it's worth. |
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Post by indrasnet on Oct 26, 2024 20:06:17 GMT -6
Nice, you all have got me curious about the upgrade now. I hadn't seen anything advertised about that dramatic of MHLink driver improvements in real DAW use (just a slight reduction in hw converter latency specs w/ phase filter and mkiv) but now I'm going to contact MH about the changes. If true, it's a much more elegant solution for my use. My sincere opinion. First, I think the MK4 upgrade is not that big a deal. Personally, I'm more of a technologist than recordist, so staying up to date is important to me, and I bought the MK4 upgrades at a significantly reduced price. Second, I'm struggling to hear a MEANINGFUL difference. Yes; I hear the differences between converter filter modes, but I don't know how to evaluate them. I think converter fetish is beyond nuts (for me). I buy, and upgrade, my MH boxes because of the tremendous functionality that it provides me, both at my day job (which is quite complex), and at my recording hobby. That's me without any clothes. Take my advice for what it's worth. I feel the same and have held off on the mkiv change. Mkiv was ultimately spurred by the AKM factory fire. I would only change to mkiv if it allows a stable, low latency solution that equals or beats Lynx/rme pcie/tb performance. |
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Post by plinker on Oct 26, 2024 20:15:16 GMT -6
My sincere opinion. First, I think the MK4 upgrade is not that big a deal. Personally, I'm more of a technologist than recordist, so staying up to date is important to me, and I bought the MK4 upgrades at a significantly reduced price. Second, I'm struggling to hear a MEANINGFUL difference. Yes; I hear the differences between converter filter modes, but I don't know how to evaluate them. I think converter fetish is beyond nuts (for me). I buy, and upgrade, my MH boxes because of the tremendous functionality that it provides me, both at my day job (which is quite complex), and at my recording hobby. That's me without any clothes. Take my advice for what it's worth. I feel the same and have held off on the mkiv change. Mkiv was ultimately spurred by the AKM factory fire. I would only change to mkiv if it allows a stable, low latency solution that equals or beats Lynx/rme pcie/tb performance. yep! |
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Post by veggieryan on Oct 27, 2024 12:09:05 GMT -6
plinker: the key question is how usable is your setup using MHLink at 0.6 ms in + 0.6 ms out safety buffer and running Logic at 96Khz with 32 sample buffer size. Can you actually run a decent sized Logic project without dropouts? What computer are you using? If the MHLink driver is so much less CPU efficient that you end up having to run 64 or 128 sample buffer sizes in Logic for the same CPU usage that RME PCIe can give at 32 samples then it starts to not make MHLink a good choice...
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Post by plinker on Oct 27, 2024 17:17:57 GMT -6
plinker : the key question is how usable is your setup using MHLink at 0.6 ms in + 0.6 ms out safety buffer and running Logic at 96Khz with 32 sample buffer size. Can you actually run a decent sized Logic project without dropouts? What computer are you using? If the MHLink driver is so much less CPU efficient that you end up having to run 64 or 128 sample buffer sizes in Logic for the same CPU usage that RME PCIe can give at 32 samples then it starts to not make MHLink a good choice... I'm just providing stats for people assuming a best-case scenario using MHLink. You'll need a much faster machine than my M1 Mini to make them usable. With 8 audio tracks at 96kHz, I have to run at 128 samples (with 0.6 ms safety buffers) to not have dropouts. The resulting latency, as reported by Logic is: 4.1 ms roundtrip, 2.0 ms output. |
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Post by veggieryan on Oct 27, 2024 19:23:07 GMT -6
An M1 Mini is actually a decently powerful machine even by today's standards mainly because the M1 chip has a decent single core CPU speed/benchmark.
It should be able to run 8 tracks of audio in Logic at 96khz at 64 samples buffer.
Even worse than having to run at 128 sample buffer in Logic is that you have the additional safety buffers for MHLink at 0.6 ms in and 0.6 ms out. So your total RTL is really 4.1 ms + 1.2 ms = 5.3 ms plus the latency of the actual conversion which fortunately is lower on the mkIV converters but still, overall it seems MHLink still requires a lot of CPU to transmit audio over ethernet and that is a problem.
I really don't know why Metric Halo chose to use ethernet for the audio interface when thunderbolt already existed and offers PCIe level performance.
At this point I think the only way they could deliver usable low latency performance would be to build their own custom thunderbolt or pcie adapter of some kind with a different protocol that doesn't involve ethernet per say but rather just uses the existing ethernet ports and cables.
Until that I don't they can really be considered a viable interface for anyone that values low latency unfortunately.
I really had hoped things had improved by now and this would not be the case. I hope I am wrong.
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Post by indrasnet on Oct 27, 2024 19:46:05 GMT -6
An M1 Mini is actually a decently powerful machine even by today's standards mainly because the M1 chip has a decent single core CPU speed/benchmark. It should be able to run 8 tracks of audio in Logic at 96khz at 64 samples buffer. Even worse than having to run at 128 sample buffer in Logic is that you have the additional safety buffers for MHLink at 0.6 ms in and 0.6 ms out. So your total RTL is really 4.1 ms + 1.2 ms = 5.3 ms plus the latency of the actual conversion which fortunately is lower on the mkIV converters but still, overall it seems MHLink still requires a lot of CPU to transmit audio over ethernet and that is a problem. I really don't know why Metric Halo chose to use ethernet for the audio interface when thunderbolt already existed and offers PCIe level performance. At this point I think the only way they could deliver usable low latency performance would be to build their own custom thunderbolt or pcie adapter of some kind with a different protocol that doesn't involve ethernet per say but rather just uses the existing ethernet ports and cables. Until that I don't they can really be considered a viable interface for anyone that values low latency unfortunately. I really had hoped things had improved by now and this would not be the case. I hope I am wrong. Logic doesn't report the latency correct in certain instances. I believe routing through Mio console and monitor controller adds additional latency as well. Then once you add a few cpu intensive oversampled plugins at 96khz 128 buffer will also be unreliable. It's a nice sounding interface but it's not made with composers and other live performance vst/modeler users in mind. It's designed to use the mioconsole and dsp for tracking and live monitoring. You'll want an rme or lynx pcie card paired with a sonnettech tb box to get there. You can use the USB connection to continue to utilize the mio mixer and mc while linking the pcie through aes. |
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Post by sirthought on Oct 28, 2024 22:24:39 GMT -6
I am not a MH owner, but my first recording mentor was one of the beta testers when the company was building it's first interfaces, and two friends in town have their gear in their studios. I've listened while tracks are being recorded using Logic and discussed the gear with them a fair amount. (Both friends' studios use Logic Pro full time. But I think my mentor back then used Digital Performer, Wavelab, and PTHD. He liked to track with MIOConsole, but he was more of a mastering engineer. He worked in a room ULN 8 prototype right on the desk and the PT interfaces in the racks. He LOVED MH. )
These guys never complain about latency. I mean Dave was telling me how great MH was for latency even when 2D was the new thing.
I don't think they are working much with virtual instruments, but I don't know for sure.
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Post by indrasnet on Oct 29, 2024 6:45:16 GMT -6
I am not a MH owner, but my first recording mentor was one of the beta testers when the company was building it's first interfaces, and two friends in town have their gear in their studios. I've listened while tracks are being recorded using Logic and discussed the gear with them a fair amount. (Both friends' studios use Logic Pro full time. But I think my mentor back then used Digital Performer, Wavelab, and PTHD. He liked to track with MIOConsole, but he was more of a mastering engineer. He worked in a room ULN 8 prototype right on the desk and the PT interfaces in the racks. He LOVED MH. ) These guys never complain about latency. I mean Dave was telling me how great MH was for latency even when 2D was the new thing. I don't think they are working much with virtual instruments, but I don't know for sure. I believe it. 2D was a firewire connection and back then my understanding is that MH had more control for bespoke drivers. Currently mac kernel access is restricted for aspects of the mhlink ethernet driver design and the 3D (current) version of the device is dependent on stock mac class compliant USB drivers on the USB side. Latency has changed since 2D firewire days. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 29, 2024 7:45:04 GMT -6
I am not a MH owner, but my first recording mentor was one of the beta testers when the company was building it's first interfaces, and two friends in town have their gear in their studios. I've listened while tracks are being recorded using Logic and discussed the gear with them a fair amount. (Both friends' studios use Logic Pro full time. But I think my mentor back then used Digital Performer, Wavelab, and PTHD. He liked to track with MIOConsole, but he was more of a mastering engineer. He worked in a room ULN 8 prototype right on the desk and the PT interfaces in the racks. He LOVED MH. ) These guys never complain about latency. I mean Dave was telling me how great MH was for latency even when 2D was the new thing. I don't think they are working much with virtual instruments, but I don't know for sure. I believe it. 2D was a firewire connection and back then my understanding is that MH had more control for bespoke drivers. Currently mac kernel access is restricted for aspects of the mhlink ethernet driver design and the 3D (current) version of the device is dependent on stock mac class compliant USB drivers on the USB side. Latency has changed since 2D firewire days. Yes you need a thunderbolt or pcie connection for guaranteed low latency at single sample rates. Even RME over USB is doing everything possible to get latency low, including compromising the da filter, and will have 4 Ms or so. Go to 88.2, 96 khz and things are different. If your computer can run at 192 kHz for vsti synth and amp sim overdubs, very different. |
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Post by keymod on Oct 29, 2024 11:27:16 GMT -6
We have four Lio8s running with an M1 Mac Studio, always at 96. Never any issues with latency or anything else.
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Post by veggieryan on Oct 29, 2024 11:38:07 GMT -6
We have four Lio8s running with an M1 Mac Studio, always at 96. Never any issues with latency or anything else. What DAW buffer and safety buffer settings are you running at? |
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Post by keymod on Oct 29, 2024 11:40:26 GMT -6
We have four Lio8s running with an M1 Mac Studio, always at 96. Never any issues with latency or anything else. What DAW buffer and safety buffer settings are you running at? I'll have to ask my engineer |
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Post by plinker on Oct 29, 2024 13:02:34 GMT -6
What DAW buffer and safety buffer settings are you running at? I'll have to ask my engineer ...and are you connecting via USB or MHLink? |
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Post by duplemeter on Oct 29, 2024 15:52:21 GMT -6
What DAW buffer and safety buffer settings are you running at? I'll have to ask my engineer keymod asked me to drop in here & answer the questions about our setup at Spiritworks: All LIOs are connected via MHLink. The DAW buffer changes based on what we're doing. I crank it up during mixing & drop it down for tracking. But, we don't monitor through Pro Tools. Monitoring is done through MIOConsole and is near zero latency (0.9ms). The safety buffer in MH I/O settings is at its default (I don't remember what the exact setting is). Most interfaces will never give you deterministric latency (latency that is always the exact same). USB connections are pretty much incapable of this. For deterministic latency you need a connection protocol that manages itself (good) or passes management onto the connected devices (ideal). If you incorporate hardware, this is more important than the lowest RTL. I hope that covered all the questions. -Steve |
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Post by copperx on Oct 31, 2024 9:25:01 GMT -6
I really don't know why Metric Halo chose to use ethernet for the audio interface when thunderbolt already existed and offers PCIe level performance.
Thunderbolt isn't universally available on Windows, so they probably did it for compatibility reasons. Oh wait ...
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Post by Quint on Oct 31, 2024 10:32:43 GMT -6
I'll have to ask my engineer keymod asked me to drop in here & answer the questions about our setup at Spiritworks: All LIOs are connected via MHLink. The DAW buffer changes based on what we're doing. I crank it up during mixing & drop it down for tracking. But, we don't monitor through Pro Tools. Monitoring is done through MIOConsole and is near zero latency (0.9ms). The safety buffer in MH I/O settings is at its default (I don't remember what the exact setting is). Most interfaces will never give you deterministric latency (latency that is always the exact same). USB connections are pretty much incapable of this. For deterministic latency you need a connection protocol that manages itself (good) or passes management onto the connected devices (ideal). If you incorporate hardware, this is more important than the lowest RTL. I hope that covered all the questions. -Steve The discussion on the last few pages, however, has been specifically about NOT monitoring thru the MIOConsole, and instead about what sort of latency is achievable when monitoring thru the DAW using the MHLink protocol. That's what we're trying to determine. |
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Post by veggieryan on Oct 31, 2024 13:11:09 GMT -6
Thunderbolt isn't universally available on Windows, so they probably did it for compatibility reasons. Oh wait ... Haha! Anyways, there is a 3rd option for Metric Halo which is to write a decent low latency driver for USB like RME does and then just use the ethernet port for daisy chaining and control of the MIOConsole... but that is probably very difficult to do which probably why only a few companies like RME really have a great performing USB driver. |
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Post by Quint on Oct 31, 2024 14:18:50 GMT -6
Thunderbolt isn't universally available on Windows, so they probably did it for compatibility reasons. Oh wait ... Haha! Anyways, there is a 3rd option for Metric Halo which is to write a decent low latency driver for USB like RME does and then just use the ethernet port for daisy chaining and control of the MIOConsole... but that is probably very difficult to do which probably why only a few companies like RME really have a great performing USB driver. Sounds like they just need to go to Thunderbolt. I wonder why they haven't. |
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Post by plinker on Oct 31, 2024 20:52:34 GMT -6
Haha! Anyways, there is a 3rd option for Metric Halo which is to write a decent low latency driver for USB like RME does and then just use the ethernet port for daisy chaining and control of the MIOConsole... but that is probably very difficult to do which probably why only a few companies like RME really have a great performing USB driver. Sounds like they just need to go to Thunderbolt. I wonder why they haven't. Probably too much invested in MHLink, at this point. It is pretty badass in so many ways -- latency just isn't one of them  |
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Post by duplemeter on Oct 31, 2024 21:48:38 GMT -6
I really don't know why Metric Halo chose to use ethernet for the audio interface when thunderbolt already existed and offers PCIe level performance.
Thunderbolt isn't universally available on Windows, so they probably did it for compatibility reasons. Oh wait ...
It's because of the limits of TB. Thunderbolt has a max cable length of 3 meters. With Cat5e, the run between each box can be 100 meters. A lot of MH users do hig end location recording. 3m would be useless for a run to the stage from the recording position. I do a weekly livestream where I have to run inside to the stage from a remote truck & we need a 300' run for that. |
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Post by duplemeter on Oct 31, 2024 21:50:34 GMT -6
Thunderbolt isn't universally available on Windows, so they probably did it for compatibility reasons. Oh wait ... Haha! Anyways, there is a 3rd option for Metric Halo which is to write a decent low latency driver for USB like RME does and then just use the ethernet port for daisy chaining and control of the MIOConsole... but that is probably very difficult to do which probably why only a few companies like RME really have a great performing USB driver. USB can't have deterministic latency....so a USB connection will not meet the requirements of a lot of pro users. |
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Post by duplemeter on Oct 31, 2024 22:00:00 GMT -6
keymod asked me to drop in here & answer the questions about our setup at Spiritworks: All LIOs are connected via MHLink. The DAW buffer changes based on what we're doing. I crank it up during mixing & drop it down for tracking. But, we don't monitor through Pro Tools. Monitoring is done through MIOConsole and is near zero latency (0.9ms). The safety buffer in MH I/O settings is at its default (I don't remember what the exact setting is). Most interfaces will never give you deterministric latency (latency that is always the exact same). USB connections are pretty much incapable of this. For deterministic latency you need a connection protocol that manages itself (good) or passes management onto the connected devices (ideal). If you incorporate hardware, this is more important than the lowest RTL. I hope that covered all the questions. -Steve The discussion on the last few pages, however, has been specifically about NOT monitoring thru the MIOConsole, and instead about what sort of latency is achievable when monitoring thru the DAW using the MHLink protocol. That's what we're trying to determine. That's simple, the specs are Host Buffer Size
S/R 32 64 128
44100 3.4 ms 4.8 ms 7.7 ms
48000 3.2 ms 4.6 ms 7.2 ms
88200 2.4 ms 3.1 ms 4.6 ms
96000 2.3 ms 3.0 ms 4.3 ms
176400 1.9 ms 2.3 ms 3.0 ms
192000 1.9 ms 2.2 ms 2.9 ms |
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