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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 16:32:04 GMT -6
Let's say you wanted to buy a pair of 87is... or KM84s.... or C414EBs, and you know that in all likelihood you'll have to buy them one at a time (as you find affordable ones that are in good shape).
Assuming you bought these to make a stereo pair for overheads, acoustic guitar mics, piano mics or whatever, how much does the difference you know will exist make you think twice about buying for this purpose?
Nearly every studio you're in, when you pull two of anything from the locker they probably aren't matched. The studio itself might have some anecdotal history about which of its mics pair well together, but apart from that, it's a collection of mostly old stuff that's all been treated like workhorses. And we rarely think twice about it.
I wondered how many get (A) super picky about this, (B) how many don't really mind and work around the differences, and (C) how many only buy matched pairs new on account of it.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 22, 2021 17:01:16 GMT -6
The only time it bothered me that a pair of mics weren’t exactly matched is on a recent drum session. I had a pair of 414eb’s as room mics, and there was like a 10db difference in output.
Normally I wouldn’t care. If two mics have slightly different responses or output levels I think it can actually add to the “stereo-ness”. I embrace it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 17:48:00 GMT -6
The only time it bothered me that a pair of mics weren’t exactly matched is on a recent drum session. I had a pair of 414eb’s as room mics, and there was like a 10db difference in output. Normally I wouldn’t care. If two mics have slightly different responses or output levels I think it can actually add to the “stereo-ness”. I embrace it. There are things to be precious about. This probably isn't one of them. To show my cards, I've never been bothered in the past, but then it was always somebody else's microphones. I hesitated for a moment when it came down to my own money, hence this thread. I recently bought another CMC5-4 and the two MK4s I now own aren't exact, but they're close, with some minor differences. Maybe if I was doing chamber music or classical soloists, the need for precision would be much greater.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 22, 2021 18:26:00 GMT -6
First how are defining “matched pair “? It’s such a loosely defined term in our industry. Some use Consecutive serial #s as a gold standard, some match by on axis response. The smartest answer I can think of is budget for new capsules and some basic maintenance. KM84’s Schoeps, U87 K47 capsules are pretty easy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 19:17:55 GMT -6
First how are defining “matched pair “? It’s such a loosely defined term in our industry. Some use Consecutive serial #s as a gold standard, some match by on axis response. The smartest answer I can think of is budget for new capsules and some basic maintenance. KM84’s Schoeps, U87 K47 capsules are pretty easy. "Matched pair" to me means the manufacturer measures output and response and selects similar, even if they were made weeks apart. Consecutive serials is probably only meaningful if the tolerances for construction are that amazing. If you expect to put new capsules in, I assume you are predicting that some will simply be in bad shape, which is possible, especially if one has to buy sight-unseen (god forbid). You don't mean as a way to make them perform more consistently...?
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Post by Chad on Sept 22, 2021 19:24:24 GMT -6
I get into the same rut, and then I step back and think... I'm not sure just how OCD we need to be about this...
My ears aren't even "matched", and they're definitely a sequential pair.
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Post by drbill on Sept 22, 2021 19:25:23 GMT -6
My ears aren't perfectly matched...... And so it doesn't bother me too much if the mics aren't matched perfectly. Close is good enough most times. haha!! Chad beat me to it....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 22, 2021 19:29:23 GMT -6
First how are defining “matched pair “? It’s such a loosely defined term in our industry. Some use Consecutive serial #s as a gold standard, some match by on axis response. The smartest answer I can think of is budget for new capsules and some basic maintenance. KM84’s Schoeps, U87 K47 capsules are pretty easy. "Matched pair" to me means the manufacturer measures output and response and selects similar, even if they were made weeks apart. Consecutive serials is probably only meaningful if the tolerances for construction are that amazing. If you expect to put new capsules in, I assume you are predicting that some will simply be in bad shape, which is possible, especially if one has to buy sight-unseen (god forbid). You don't mean as a way to make them perform more consistently...? The problem with the response matching is they only check on axis response and most of what a mic picks up isn’t on axis. The budgeting for new capsules is simply experience, quickest least expensive road to getting 2 that match well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 19:34:41 GMT -6
I get into the same rut, and then I step back and think... I'm not sure just how OCD we need to be about this... My ears aren't even "matched", and they're definitely a sequential pair. Truer words.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 19:35:59 GMT -6
"Matched pair" to me means the manufacturer measures output and response and selects similar, even if they were made weeks apart. Consecutive serials is probably only meaningful if the tolerances for construction are that amazing. If you expect to put new capsules in, I assume you are predicting that some will simply be in bad shape, which is possible, especially if one has to buy sight-unseen (god forbid). You don't mean as a way to make them perform more consistently...? The problem with the response matching is they only check on axis response and most of what a mic picks up isn’t on axis. The budgeting for new capsules is simply experience, quickest least expensive road to getting 2 that match well. Appreciate the wisdom and the clarification. Great point about the off-axis response.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 19:41:47 GMT -6
My ears aren't perfectly matched...... And so it doesn't bother me too much if the mics aren't matched perfectly. Close is good enough most times. haha!! Chad beat me to it.... Yes to all. "Rock n roll is not precious"—Glyn Johns I predicted this wouldn't exercise anybody too much and it proved to be correct.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 22, 2021 20:27:26 GMT -6
The problem with the response matching is they only check on axis response and most of what a mic picks up isn’t on axis. The budgeting for new capsules is simply experience, quickest least expensive road to getting 2 that match well. Appreciate the wisdom and the clarification. Great point about the off-axis response. You would not believe how many customers were disappointed with factory “matched pairs”.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 23:59:43 GMT -6
Appreciate the wisdom and the clarification. Great point about the off-axis response. You would not believe how many customers were disappointed with factory “matched pairs”. I’m not surprised. I also wouldn’t trust all companies equally to nail a matching. Moral: use microphones and enjoy.
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Post by drumsound on Sept 23, 2021 0:28:09 GMT -6
I get into the same rut, and then I step back and think... I'm not sure just how OCD we need to be about this... My ears aren't even "matched", and they're definitely a sequential pair. My ears aren't perfectly matched...... And so it doesn't bother me too much if the mics aren't matched perfectly. Close is good enough most times. haha!! Chad beat me to it.... same
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Post by hadaja on Sept 23, 2021 4:09:48 GMT -6
Seeing how you mentioned neumann km mics. I have had the fortune to have a more then a few handful go through my hands over the years. I can say i have found them all to be very close sounding and could easily sold off as matched pairs. In fact i have bought some new kk84 capsules a few years ago and even they sounded like matched pairs even though they were bought at different times. There are some mics that this works for and clearly others that do not.
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Post by Ward on Sept 23, 2021 7:41:05 GMT -6
My ears aren't even "matched", and they're definitely a sequential pair. My ears aren't perfectly matched...... And so it doesn't bother me too much if the mics aren't matched perfectly. Close is good enough most times. Well said by both of you! And let's face it, no two U87i's sounds exactly the same but they all sound like a U87, so get two that sound close enough to your un-matched ears. Same is true for KM84s, U47s, U67s etc
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Post by svart on Sept 23, 2021 7:45:36 GMT -6
As long as the level isn't too different, simply having mics a few inches apart from each other is enough to vastly change their perception of a source, so I couldn't care less if they were "matched".
In fact, the small tonal differences help bolster a more "stereo" image by exacerbating the differences the ears will hear that we perceive as stereo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 8:07:03 GMT -6
As long as the level isn't too different, simply having mics a few inches apart from each other is enough to vastly change their perception of a source, so I couldn't care less if they were "matched". In fact, the small tonal differences help bolster a more "stereo" image by exacerbating the differences the ears will hear that we perceive as stereo. Yes, it works in your favor.
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Post by drbill on Sept 23, 2021 10:21:14 GMT -6
simply having mics a few inches apart from each other is enough to vastly change their perception of a source, . TRUE!! ^^^^ The most annoying thing is if they have a large output differential. But even that is mostly an inconvenience unless you're using a stereo mic pre or a stepped gain pre.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 11:34:29 GMT -6
simply having mics a few inches apart from each other is enough to vastly change their perception of a source, . TRUE!! ^^^^ The most annoying thing is if they have a large output differential. But even that is mostly an inconvenience unless you're using a stereo mic pre or a stepped gain pre. Yep. Luckily those differentials are easy to measure and correct with clip-gain. Or at least get into the ballpark so you stop thinking about it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 23, 2021 11:55:24 GMT -6
simply having mics a few inches apart from each other is enough to vastly change their perception of a source, . TRUE!! ^^^^ The most annoying thing is if they have a large output differential. But even that is mostly an inconvenience unless you're using a stereo mic pre or a stepped gain pre. Honestly my biggest bitch from years of grabbing a pair off the shelf for stereo is how often you would notice differences in pickup patterns.
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Post by popmann on Sept 23, 2021 12:08:46 GMT -6
Appreciate the wisdom and the clarification. Great point about the off-axis response. You would not believe how many customers were disappointed with factory “matched pairs”. Blackbird has a pair of Anniversary M149s in their fancy single case...that I've had to call Rolff (when he was managing rentals) mid session to tell him he sent the wrong one home with me...and is the other one still around? And his response was "but they're a matched set"...and he looked it up--sure enough, someone pulled the OTHER serial--not the one I'd been using. Point being...Neumann ain't some chump mic maker....neither is Sennheiser ....and it was so off for close vocal mic'ing with only one side of the capsule (cardioid) I could tell without having the other one THERE...so, it's sort a non thing this matching thing. And I think probably with tubes in each the chances get even lower. ...and as to using them as stereo pairs...NO two LDC capsules will be as close and ANY two SDCs. Nature of the beast. And the only reason it matters at ALL is accurate stereo imaging with SPECIFIC mic techniques really--the reality is, I can't think of a time I've used such techniques on a pop/rock record. Thus functionally--not as useful as it might seem in an academic way.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 13:38:35 GMT -6
You would not believe how many customers were disappointed with factory “matched pairs”. And the only reason it matters at ALL is accurate stereo imaging with SPECIFIC mic techniques really--the reality is, I can't think of a time I've used such techniques on a pop/rock record. Thus functionally--not as useful as it might seem in an academic way. Ding ding ding ding ding! In the rock/pop world, seems like the most exotic thing anyone gets up to is M/S, and even then most of us can't be bothered.
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Post by Ward on Sept 24, 2021 4:30:14 GMT -6
In the rock/pop world, seems like the most exotic thing anyone gets up to is M/S, and even then most of us can't be bothered. You're probably not (or maybe you are) going to believe this but SOME of us think that MS is totally fake and fake sounding and sucks and does not hear the same way that we hear and thus is a faux capture. I know, crazy talk.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2021 8:40:30 GMT -6
In the rock/pop world, seems like the most exotic thing anyone gets up to is M/S, and even then most of us can't be bothered. You're probably not (or maybe you are) going to believe this but SOME of us think that MS is totally fake and fake sounding and sucks and does not hear the same way that we hear and thus is a faux capture. I know, crazy talk. LOL. I don't really stray from spaced pairs. I've never found any of the techniques that correct for phase sound terribly interesting. Also, I think mono is underrated. I can count the number of people I know of who use MS on on finger. You wouldn't know it from the preponderance of gear and plug-ins that now support MS. Who are all these people asking for it? The only interesting use for MS that I've ever found was to switch FabFilter Pro-Q over to MS mode and you can tweak stereo bus EQ separately for the middle or the side, for a subtle stereo enhancement. That's about it.
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