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Post by superwack on Oct 11, 2021 13:15:22 GMT -6
Can you hear aliasing or just measure it ? Aliasing is just harmonics created when the signal hits the nyquist "wall" and bounce back so they are audio and can be heard if they are loud enough. Here's a pretty good video where you can hear it (warning: they are playing high pitched sine sweeps so you need to listen to hear the aliasing but make sure your volume isn't up too high!)
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2021 13:42:13 GMT -6
On some plugs I can hear what I think is aliasing disappear when oversampling. High shelf EQ's like the Sonimus SonEQ 2 seem to sound better to me, for example. That's literally what oversampling does. it shifts the nyquist foldover points upwards in frequency and away from the signals of interest.
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 11, 2021 13:49:09 GMT -6
On some plugs I can hear what I think is aliasing disappear when oversampling. High shelf EQ's like the Sonimus SonEQ 2 seem to sound better to me, for example. That's literally what oversampling does. it shifts the nyquist foldover points upwards in frequency and away from the signals of interest. Very good.
I also think sometimes aliasing doesn't necessarily sound bad, either. But for a clean sound, I like it. I think I recall one of the issues with aliasing being the fact that it doesn't generate harmonics that are "musical". This isn't something I generally worry much about the nuts and bolts of, just how it affects me practically speaking. So I don't know much on the subject. I seem to recall a good Dan Worrall video.
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2021 14:00:30 GMT -6
That's literally what oversampling does. it shifts the nyquist foldover points upwards in frequency and away from the signals of interest. Very good.
I also think sometimes aliasing doesn't necessarily sound bad, either. But for a clean sound, I like it. I think I recall one of the issues with aliasing being the fact that it doesn't generate harmonics that are "musical". This isn't something I generally worry much about the nuts and bolts of, just how it affects me practically speaking. So I don't know much on the subject. I seem to recall a good Dan Worrall video.
The harmonics are mathematically related to the sampling rate, specifically fs/2 (half sampling rate, or otherwise known as the highest usable frequency). So for a sampling rate of 44.1KHz, that makes fs/2 equal to 22.1KHz. Since you can't make physical filters tight enough to cut everything off at 22.2KHz, you'll always get a little Nyquist aliasing equal to the rolloff of the anti-aliasing filter. Now, for digital signals, this is all mathematical, but still related to the sampling frequency that the file was encoded at vs. what the DAW is working at. Oversampling is simply sampling the signal once again at a much higher samplerate. Say you take your 44.1K file and oversample it at 96K, instead of fs/2 being 22.1K, it's now 48K. This eases the required physical or digital filters needed to anti-alias as well as moves the Nyquist fold-over point upwards. It cannot remove aliased frequencies that were created in the files from the original encoding though. Those are there to stay. It also can't make a sound file have higher fidelity either. You'd be surprised how many folks I talk to that still believe that it somehow "enhances" the original audio.. This is one of the primary reasons higher sample rate files sound better.
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2021 14:09:45 GMT -6
A VST won't necessarily benefit from this efficiency as they are loading all the samples into memory at once to allow the audio buffer to fill in time. Once the memory is full it will need to start using virtual memory. That's a good point but my understanding of the soc architecture is that it still processes faster: maybe it’s an on paper advantage ? As someone who's worked with SoCs over the years, they don't necessarily have an advantage over general purpose CPUs other than they typically do the things they're designed to do fairly well. While that sounds pretty given, they are absolutely terrible at doing things they aren't optimized to do. However, general purpose CPUs can handle just about anything thrown at them fairly well. Apple has the advantage of being able to code to their ARM chip's specific strengths. Microsoft and Apple always had to fudge a little to fit the Intel design which leaves some performance on the table. I think if Intel designed an OS around every little bit of knowledge they might have about optimizing their CPUs, they'd slay Apple.. But as we've seen, the money is not in the OS. It's in selling the hardware and nickle/diming you for updates/support/microtransactions/click or ad revenue, etc. and Intel isn't going to invent a software brand and lose money doing it. But Apple has a history of releasing benchmarks that were always a little too good. Much like the M1 was supposed to kill Intel CPUs by miles, but they turned out to be relatively equal to the i7-11700, which is a pretty middling CPU.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Oct 11, 2021 14:20:06 GMT -6
I'm guessing we'll be hearing about the new chip in a week or so. Looking forward to seeing what they're putting out after the success of the M1 chip. I saw that Amazon dropped the price on the lowest models of the M1 Mini and M1 Air. You don't see the discount until you've completed the purchase (wacky, yes, but on the sales page there is a discount notice in green text). Cheapest price on a M1 Mini yet, although the drive and RAM are the smallest available. How much on Amazon after the discount? Ive been eyeing one for weeks...
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 11, 2021 14:28:10 GMT -6
An innocent question about cpu/ram performance, how come people could play the same session confirming when the Intel chip would fall over, then run same session on mi and double or treble the tracks and plug ins .
How is 1-200% more processing negligible ?
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 11, 2021 14:36:35 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2021 14:42:18 GMT -6
An innocent question about cpu/ram performance, how come people could play the same session confirming when the Intel chip would fall over, then run same session on mi and double or treble the tracks and plug ins . How is 1-200% more processing negligible ? You'll have to be more specific. As I've mentioned before, Intel has a sneaky way of labeling their models and some have the same model number but drastically reduced performance. Like one I recently used: i7-8700T. Limited power consumption to 35W. Normal CPU speed 2.4G. Cores will boost to 4G but throttle back if 35W is reached. I7-8700. Power consumption limited to 65W. Normal CPU speed 3.4G. Cores will boost to 4.6G but throttle back if 65W is reached. i7-8700K. Power consumption limited to 95W. Normal CPU speed 3.7G. Cores will boost to 4.7G but throttle back if 95W is reached. So which version the model is like the one that "fall over"? Most likely someone used a laptop to compare, which means that it's most likely the T version, which is the most used in laptops. In this case, yes the intel CPU would fall apart pretty quick. When I got my latest recording computer, it came with a T version and it couldn't handle some of the plugs I wanted to use. I switched it out for the non-T version and it's been great since. Barely gets warm and I have 50+ tracks and maybe that many plugs on the tracks total. It's about 40% CPU with a session like that. I believe a lot of these hearsay tests are not really as equal as they claim.
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2021 14:45:16 GMT -6
Your link literally shows the Intel mac winning.. And they say this: "The Intel Mac Mini shows considerably improved performance over the newer M1 Mac." and then proceed to try to explain it away by saying it has to do with RAM, but they don't have any usage statistics to back this up at all.
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Post by sirthought on Oct 11, 2021 14:48:38 GMT -6
I'm guessing we'll be hearing about the new chip in a week or so. Looking forward to seeing what they're putting out after the success of the M1 chip. I saw that Amazon dropped the price on the lowest models of the M1 Mini and M1 Air. You don't see the discount until you've completed the purchase (wacky, yes, but on the sales page there is a discount notice in green text). Cheapest price on a M1 Mini yet, although the drive and RAM are the smallest available. How much on Amazon after the discount? Ive been eyeing one for weeks... It's around $60 off. Not a huge amount. It's only the base model.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 11, 2021 14:55:51 GMT -6
svart Guess I can’t read/listen: maybe that’s the problem ! But I have seen those other yt videos , where the Intel clearly doesn’t win. Are they being faked in some way ?
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2021 15:03:03 GMT -6
svart Guess I can’t read/listen: maybe that’s the problem ! But I have seen those other yt videos , where the Intel clearly doesn’t win. Are they being faked in some way ? I just looked at a few non-partisan benchmark sites and they show the M1 being on par with the i7-11700 which is pretty much the middle CPU in Intel's lineup.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Oct 11, 2021 15:09:46 GMT -6
It's around $60 off. Not a huge amount. It's only the base model. Ah yes, Im waiting for them to go back down to $599 (unless thats what they are now). Seems the 8GB version would be enough to just run Reaper and the typical plugins- Soundtoys, FabFilter, PSP etc...
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Post by sirthought on Oct 11, 2021 15:11:53 GMT -6
It's around $60 off. Not a huge amount. It's only the base model. Ah yes, Im waiting for them to go back down to $599 (unless thats what they are now). Seems the 8GB version would be enough to just run Reaper and the typical plugins- Soundtoys, FabFilter, PSP etc... It does end up right around $600. Go look at Amazon.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Oct 11, 2021 16:51:09 GMT -6
svart Guess I can’t read/listen: maybe that’s the problem ! But I have seen those other yt videos , where the Intel clearly doesn’t win. Are they being faked in some way ? I just looked at a few non-partisan benchmark sites and they show the M1 being on par with the i7-11700 which is pretty much the middle CPU in Intel's lineup. The 11700 is really at their higher end of desktop CPUs the 11900 being the highest. I don't think people fake these yt videos, but many people are testing them against 6-10yo intel macs which obviously isn't a fair fight. If you look at the trashcan for example, it is actually a slow machine compaired to most current machines. The same can be said about the old mac mini that many people are still running (they are ancient in tech years). The best thing about the M1 series is that they are very good value for money without the "intel tax".
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Post by reddirt on Oct 11, 2021 19:39:29 GMT -6
The fact they run cool with virtually zilch fan noise is a huge plus for me also the fact they are unobtrusive not to mention that in the real world, Wiz does what he does with the 8 gig ram model which should speak to a lot of us I'd suggest.
The only reason I am waiting is to see if a new model has more connections which could obviate the need to spend on a hub.
Bound to be some good 2nd hand bargains once the newies are out.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by octalsocket on Oct 11, 2021 21:12:17 GMT -6
New guy here, but I thought I’d drop in to say that I’ve been running a base level M1 Mac Mini, mostly to run Reaper and mostly a mix of DMG audio and Valhalla plugins. I’ve tried is with a handful of the cheap 2-channel interfaces around now (Motu M4 and SSL 2+), but it’s been living in a rack with a Motu 8pre-es and an Audient ASP800 for portable tracking situations.
Let me know if you have any specific questions, I’ll try to answer them. I will say that I’m running the Intel Reaper code over Rosetta, since the ARM version was slightly crash prone.
My main studio machine is a late 2015 i7 iMac, with a Motu 16a. The M1 seems to be about three times more efficient than the iMac, but that thing is 6 years old now.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 11, 2021 21:18:22 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum octalsocket. I'm looking forward to hearing more after you've been using the M1 for a while.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 11, 2021 23:21:22 GMT -6
If an October event is announced, is there any guess when it would be announced? A few days before? I’ve got 14 days to return my MacBook Air and if I can get a Pro M1x in the next month or so I’m gonna return it...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 23:37:13 GMT -6
svart Guess I can’t read/listen: maybe that’s the problem ! But I have seen those other yt videos , where the Intel clearly doesn’t win. Are they being faked in some way ? I just looked at a few non-partisan benchmark sites and they show the M1 being on par with the i7-11700 which is pretty much the middle CPU in Intel's lineup. The whole point of the M1 is performance vs. TDP not outright performance. Most modern cheapo multi-core AMD's would give the M1 a good kicking, but in the mobile / small device class (laptops / NUC style devices like the mini or tablets) they have a fair amount of processing power with minimal heat and power drain. In the desktop segment where this doesn't matter as much there's far better options..
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Post by enlav on Oct 12, 2021 17:51:21 GMT -6
If an October event is announced, is there any guess when it would be announced? A few days before? I’ve got 14 days to return my MacBook Air and if I can get a Pro M1x in the next month or so I’m gonna return it... I just received an email from Apple for an event on October 18. Is this the reveal...?
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Post by sirthought on Oct 12, 2021 17:52:20 GMT -6
If an October event is announced, is there any guess when it would be announced? A few days before? I’ve got 14 days to return my MacBook Air and if I can get a Pro M1x in the next month or so I’m gonna return it... I just received an email from Apple for an event on October 18. Is this the reveal...? That's a strong possibility!
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 13, 2021 5:12:49 GMT -6
Now to see if they reveal it and when it will be available..
Hopefully they dont hit us with "Available first quarter next year!" at the end of it all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 6:13:35 GMT -6
Updating a lot of efficient code can be quite the ordeal:
Satin and Presswerk are more efficient while being more complex internally than a ton of other plugins. *Looks at every other tape plugin except for Chow Tape*
The reason they and lot of older plugs that sounded good were so efficient and sounded so much better than the competition was because of assembly instructions. They could do more without needing bringing a computer to its knees. They need to be partially rewritten, especially if they didn’t use a modular framework like a custom, better version of JUCE. The Variety of Sound plugs sounded so good 10 years ago because they were just x86 assembly and synthedit guis.
Developers like McDSP and PSP probably have a lot of work to do. Some of the PSP plugs have crazy distortion algorithms much more complex than a soft clipper into a hard clipper like the typical “console” emulation.
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