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Post by gouge on Oct 6, 2021 1:51:38 GMT -6
this is of interest for me atm as i'm toying with the idea of an upgrade and so considering both platforms. long time intel user with no stability issues. benchmarks are here. am not sure apple is in front which is what is claimed with the m1x in the media. www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_benchmark-cinebench_r23_single_core-15i notice the intel can accept twice the ram. You notice the Intel can accept twice the RAM, but not that the Apple performs just as well with half the RAM and half the power draw? Okay, LOL. Either way, I seriously have to question the benchmarks on a system that zero people have access to at the moment. There are literally zero claims about the m1x in the media right now because it hasn't even been announced. Nobody even knows what it will actually be called - "M1X" is only speculation. can you back up the half ram comment? is that a thing? cant say it isnt but cant find anyhting saying it is
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Post by gouge on Oct 6, 2021 2:08:04 GMT -6
right, so i think i inderstand where the idea of ram performance and m1 superiority are comimg from.
its from comparisons between apple m1 laptops and apple intel laptops. if your world is apple then a very important comparison.
but if comparing apple to pc the picture is very different.
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Post by sirthought on Oct 6, 2021 2:40:36 GMT -6
Regarding Thunderbolt: I likely could find test data, but my perspective is coming mostly from the UAD forums of people just trying to get their Apollo TB interface to work on a PC they bought or built.
You can buy a device with a motherboard that has TB, but a lot of times it isn't working with the Apollo. Those who are getting it to work, it works well, but some who have Apples say it performs better on the Apple versus their PC. Apollo is overall an interface with a great track record, but a PC with a TB that works is a bitch to make happen, and a lot of that can be blamed on Microsoft (from what I've read).
Regarding the RAM: Yeah with the M1 you are throwing out most of what you have come to understand with previous systems. I have 40GB RAM in current Apple. I'd likely get equal benefits from 16 GB in an M1 computer. I don't know why.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Oct 6, 2021 3:30:24 GMT -6
A VST won't necessarily benefit from this efficiency as they are loading all the samples into memory at once to allow the audio buffer to fill in time. Once the memory is full it will need to start using virtual memory. That's a good point but my understanding of the soc architecture is that it still processes faster: maybe it’s an on paper advantage ? It is probable that the VM access is faster since apple now develops the whole process. I would still get the maximum memory available. Obviously you want to fill the audio buffer as efficiently as possible so Apple probably had the advantage here. The issue with this thread and the discussion around M1 vs Intel is that most bench marks don't tell us anything about how a system will perform in regards to real-time audio. There are relatively few scenarios that are comparable.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Oct 6, 2021 3:43:43 GMT -6
Regarding Thunderbolt: I likely could find test data, but my perspective is coming mostly from the UAD forums of people just trying to get their Apollo TB interface to work on a PC they bought or built. You can buy a device with a motherboard that has TB, but a lot of times it isn't working with the Apollo. Those who are getting it to work, it works well, but some who have Apples say it performs better on the Apple versus their PC. Apollo is overall an interface with a great track record, but a PC with a TB that works is a bitch to make happen, and a lot of that can be blamed on Microsoft (from what I've read). Regarding the RAM: Yeah with the M1 you are throwing out most of what you have come to understand with previous systems. I have 40GB RAM in current Apple. I'd likely get equal benefits from 16 GB in an M1 computer. I don't know why. Yeah UA didn't do a great job with their PC compatibility. I never had a problem (mac or pc) but they are definitely a Mac first company. Focusrite also had problems with Thunderbolt implementation on windows. RME is a good example of windows thunderbolt drivers but thunderbolt on PC didn't work correctly until titan ridge which didn't help the situation.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 6, 2021 5:10:10 GMT -6
I understood that different Win Mobos actually routed the tb signal differently some were compatible with Apollo, ie, recognized and worked some not. UA had recommended/tested mobos and they worked, but it seemed like lots of people just tried to force untested configurations and for a long while blamed UA who hadn’t made the mobos .
I think of soc efficiency like rtl meaning shorter is better. Soc due to its embedded design moves the data much shorter distances and the ram is optimized for the chip so it’s just faster than traditional ram.
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Post by dok on Oct 6, 2021 15:50:19 GMT -6
You notice the Intel can accept twice the RAM, but not that the Apple performs just as well with half the RAM and half the power draw? Okay, LOL. Either way, I seriously have to question the benchmarks on a system that zero people have access to at the moment. There are literally zero claims about the m1x in the media right now because it hasn't even been announced. Nobody even knows what it will actually be called - "M1X" is only speculation. can you back up the half ram comment? is that a thing? cant say it isnt but cant find anyhting saying it is In the link you provided: www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-intel_core_i9_11980hk-1963-vs-apple_m1x-1898The Apple system (which again, nobody has access to, so I'm not sure how this benchmark even exists) apparently has 64GB of RAM compared to the Intel system's 128GB, yet it performs quite favorably. That's a big deal.
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Post by popmann on Oct 6, 2021 20:07:10 GMT -6
Based on history, how long on average before the interface, DAW and Plugin manufacturers are compatible with a new chip after it's released roughly? I'm trying to think of the last time in digital recording history that a CPU chips architecture changed this drastically. R U a young'un? PowerPC vs intel. Avid hardware has been responsible for 99.9% of digital mixes you've ever heard. Running on neither. I don't remember--did they use Sharc chips? Whole other plug in platform. The PREDOMINANT one...for a LONG time....TDM.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Oct 6, 2021 20:35:52 GMT -6
I'm trying to think of the last time in digital recording history that a CPU chips architecture changed this drastically. R U a young'un? PowerPC vs intel. Avid hardware has been responsible for 99.9% of digital mixes you've ever heard. Running on neither. I don't remember--did they use Sharc chips? Whole other plug in platform. The PREDOMINANT one...for a LONG time....TDM. Not digital tape.
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Post by popmann on Oct 6, 2021 20:45:33 GMT -6
TDM is in NO way digital tape.
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Post by gouge on Oct 6, 2021 21:34:30 GMT -6
can you back up the half ram comment? is that a thing? cant say it isnt but cant find anyhting saying it is In the link you provided: www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-intel_core_i9_11980hk-1963-vs-apple_m1x-1898The Apple system (which again, nobody has access to, so I'm not sure how this benchmark even exists) apparently has 64GB of RAM compared to the Intel system's 128GB, yet it performs quite favorably. That's a big deal. not a big deal as the comparison is a cpu only benchmark. no ram... apple is not better or faster than pc. the ram listed is max ram each cpu can hamdle. pc can handle more.
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Post by cyrano on Oct 7, 2021 17:52:58 GMT -6
Come on...
That's not a serious comparison. I mean, they even list "Direct X version" for the GPU's. That's all part of Intel's ridiculous attempt to stay alive. Have you seen the latest one?
Now check the comments.
The link to the M1X in one of the tables goes to Amazon. Not to an Apple product, of course. Just tryin' to make a buck, with lies.
Think. There aren't many companies as secretive as Apple. Why would anyone leak engineering samples to a site like that? And risk not only being fired, but also being sued. And they also have the M2...
The one thing that sets Apple's processor on a different plane, is power consumption. But that's not even mentioned.
Fake, if you ask me.
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 7, 2021 18:42:05 GMT -6
I'm trying to think of the last time in digital recording history that a CPU chips architecture changed this drastically. R U a young'un? PowerPC vs intel. Avid hardware has been responsible for 99.9% of digital mixes you've ever heard. Running on neither. I don't remember--did they use Sharc chips? Whole other plug in platform. The PREDOMINANT one...for a LONG time....TDM. 'Pends on yer definition, I reckon. All relative, but probably on the younger side for this forum. Songs from the Big Chair came out when I was 1.
PowerPC is a good example. But this still seems like quite a departure. However, since in those days there were relatively few plugins, it makes today's changeover seem more drastic as 1000's of plugs and software programs have to adapt.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Oct 8, 2021 2:59:00 GMT -6
I think of soc efficiency like rtl meaning shorter is better. Soc due to its embedded design moves the data much shorter distances and the ram is optimized for the chip so it’s just faster than traditional ram. Yes soc probably does mean slightly better rtl but thunderbolt will not be natively supported like it was for an intel chipset so that is a trade off. No doubt it will be a good performer for audio because "apple". I would get the largest amount of ram available because as soon as it starts overrunning it uses the SSD swap file and the swap speed will be about 5-10x slower (and also have the side benefit of eating up your SSDs life span) The iphone and ipad manage to have lower amounts of memory by aggressively offloading background process. This technique doesn't work with computers as most application are more demanding by design. Very interesting to see what the next generations of M processors brings.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 6:20:54 GMT -6
R U a young'un? PowerPC vs intel. Avid hardware has been responsible for 99.9% of digital mixes you've ever heard. Running on neither. I don't remember--did they use Sharc chips? Whole other plug in platform. The PREDOMINANT one...for a LONG time....TDM. 'Pends on yer definition, I reckon. All relative, but probably on the younger side for this forum. Songs from the Big Chair came out when I was 1.
PowerPC is a good example. But this still seems like quite a departure. However, since in those days there were relatively few plugins, it makes today's changeover seem more drastic as 1000's of plugs and software programs have to adapt.
The plugin game is brutal. Only the strongest survive and the hustle never ends.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 8, 2021 10:46:50 GMT -6
OK about 14 years ago when I lived in Texas I was talking to the then head of design at Dell and we were talking Apple and his comment was “ we will never be as good unless we also control the OS/ software, about 6 weeks later a guy from HP and I are at a party with a bunch of guys from the Johnson Space Center talking PC’s, “ as long as we are designing around other peoples chips we will be inefficient “. So what’s this got to die with Apple silicone? For the first time we have a company designing everything, we already see the jump in power and thermal efficiency, next comes more efficient use of multiple cores, and memory. If the software developers see the light of more power because of efficiency we are Golden. Of course if they do the usual we will just see more bloated software. We may have to change our benchmark standards but this has the potential to be interesting if The people at Apple work this as an integrated system.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Oct 8, 2021 11:09:30 GMT -6
TDM is in NO way digital tape. Right, but a lot of big digital records were cut to digital tape. For me personally, I have more records in my collection that were cut to digital tape or even ADAT than TDM.
That might just make me old!
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 8, 2021 11:50:20 GMT -6
'Pends on yer definition, I reckon. All relative, but probably on the younger side for this forum. Songs from the Big Chair came out when I was 1.
PowerPC is a good example. But this still seems like quite a departure. However, since in those days there were relatively few plugins, it makes today's changeover seem more drastic as 1000's of plugs and software programs have to adapt.
The plugin game is brutal. Only the strongest survive and the hustle never ends. Being on the internet these days is like this but with plugins:
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 8, 2021 12:06:00 GMT -6
TDM is in NO way digital tape. Right, but a lot of big digital records were cut to digital tape. For me personally, I have more records in my collection that were cut to digital tape or even ADAT than TDM.
That might just make me old!
Cut to tape but a TDM system is probably all over them during mix and editing. Comping and editing was a pain in the ass on both the Sony and Mitsubishi digital machines, dump the session into PT, even if you had to do it 8 tracks at a time in real time it was still easy quick and non destructive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 14:21:26 GMT -6
OK about 14 years ago when I lived in Texas I was talking to the then head of design at Dell and we were talking Apple and his comment was “ we will never be as good unless we also control the OS/ software, about 6 weeks later a guy from HP and I are at a party with a bunch of guys from the Johnson Space Center talking PC’s, “ as long as we are designing around other peoples chips we will be inefficient “. So what’s this got to die with Apple silicone? For the first time we have a company designing everything, we already see the jump in power and thermal efficiency, next comes more efficient use of multiple cores, and memory. If the software developers see the light of more power because of efficiency we are Golden. Of course if they do the usual we will just see more bloated software. We may have to change our benchmark standards but this has the potential to be interesting if The people at Apple work this as an integrated system. What Tokyo Dawn, U-he, and Goodhertz have been doing with recent updates is insane. The efficiency is crazy and the quality is top notch, exceeding all but the best of the best modern design analog gear. Overloud is hyper efficient with amp sims too. One of their programmers made the Simulanalog JCM 900 so he can make stuff run on a toaster. The new Kazrog 5150 plug is nice too. Now your average developer is stuck in either the year 2002 or 2010 for quality and efficiency is terrible. All of the compressors with hard knee, fast attack that don’t run certain functions at a MHz sample rate are crazy and cannot work. Then the “tape” plugs that don’t run at a high enough sample rate to have a bias tone. Then all the plugs like Softube that make bad or inefficient GPU calls.
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Post by wiz on Oct 8, 2021 17:22:20 GMT -6
OK about 14 years ago when I lived in Texas I was talking to the then head of design at Dell and we were talking Apple and his comment was “ we will never be as good unless we also control the OS/ software, about 6 weeks later a guy from HP and I are at a party with a bunch of guys from the Johnson Space Center talking PC’s, “ as long as we are designing around other peoples chips we will be inefficient “. So what’s this got to die with Apple silicone? For the first time we have a company designing everything, we already see the jump in power and thermal efficiency, next comes more efficient use of multiple cores, and memory. If the software developers see the light of more power because of efficiency we are Golden. Of course if they do the usual we will just see more bloated software. We may have to change our benchmark standards but this has the potential to be interesting if The people at Apple work this as an integrated system. What Tokyo Dawn, U-he, and Goodhertz have been doing with recent updates is insane. The efficiency is crazy and the quality is top notch, exceeding all but the best of the best modern design analog gear. Overloud is hyper efficient with amp sims too. One of their programmers made the Simulanalog JCM 900 so he can make stuff run on a toaster. The new Kazrog 5150 plug is nice too. Now your average developer is stuck in either the year 2002 or 2010 for quality and efficiency is terrible. All of the compressors with hard knee, fast attack that don’t run certain functions at a MHz sample rate are crazy and cannot work. Then the “tape” plugs that don’t run at a high enough sample rate to have a bias tone. Then all the plugs like Softube that make bad or inefficient GPU calls. Hey Dan You often mention aliasing as an issue with some plugs…if possible can you please post an audio example as I have no idea what to listen for Cheers Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 8, 2021 17:25:02 GMT -6
Can you hear aliasing or just measure it ?
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 8, 2021 18:10:01 GMT -6
On some plugs I can hear what I think is aliasing disappear when oversampling. High shelf EQ's like the Sonimus SonEQ 2 seem to sound better to me, for example.
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Post by gouge on Oct 9, 2021 0:12:58 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Oct 11, 2021 8:54:01 GMT -6
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