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Post by Quint on Nov 28, 2021 19:23:54 GMT -6
I was surprised how easily my Motu 8A transitioned to my new m1 mini with a simple thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter. I literally just plugged it in and everything works.. and at much lower sample rates than my old MBP. I was working at 32 samples today which was impossible before. Also i have been running photoshop, final cut, light room, after effects, premiere pro and haven't even hit swap yet with 16gb ram, impressive! You're saying that you're running Photoshop and all of those other programs at the same time as running your DAW?
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 28, 2021 20:15:56 GMT -6
I was surprised how easily my Motu 8A transitioned to my new m1 mini with a simple thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter. I literally just plugged it in and everything works.. and at much lower sample rates than my old MBP. I was working at 32 samples today which was impossible before. Also i have been running photoshop, final cut, light room, after effects, premiere pro and haven't even hit swap yet with 16gb ram, impressive! Yes ... so true, second day setting up here. I do remember the cathastrophy when we had to make the shift from the old G5 to the new Intel CPUs. What a mess and stress - it made the impression of an chaotic orginsation by Apple. Thinking back on these days I think everyone could smell, that something went wrong launching the new technology.
But now its very much on point. WoW!
Sure a few bugs are in the OSX and a few ones in Logic, but nothing which makes me go nuts. 95% of the things are in a flow. I also like the facelift plus new features in iWorks. Photos became a sort of Lightroom extra Light. Great new softwareinstruments in Logic... very cool. Overall a well done shift.... THX Steve ...
AH sorry still cant remeber the name of the new CEO. Signs of getting OLDER....
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Post by ml on Nov 29, 2021 6:40:02 GMT -6
I was surprised how easily my Motu 8A transitioned to my new m1 mini with a simple thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter. I literally just plugged it in and everything works.. and at much lower sample rates than my old MBP. I was working at 32 samples today which was impossible before. Also i have been running photoshop, final cut, light room, after effects, premiere pro and haven't even hit swap yet with 16gb ram, impressive! You're saying that you're running Photoshop and all of those other programs at the same time as running your DAW? No I didn’t have all of those running at the same time. But I’ve had at least 3 of those open at the same time plus safari and no issues. The Adobe stuff seems to be least optimized and uses the most Ram. I haven’t had a chance to stress out my daw yet (Reaper ARM version) but I doubt it will be more resource hungry than the video/graphic programs.
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Post by enlav on Nov 29, 2021 8:22:41 GMT -6
If you want low round trip latency, RME and Lynx (not over usb) are still the sanest options. If you can’t afford RME and need usb and low rtl, Steinberg. That's what I have it narrowed down to at this point. UFX II or Aurora(n) TB3. I'll probably wait until the mini comes in, use my current IO, and make sure everything functions as it needs to before I push the order button.
Basically ruled out the UA interfaces mostly because I've been so impressed with the native plugins, and this move to the M1 should allow me to use more than the sparse resources I had on my old xeon before. (Kudos to Dan for pointing out a lot of those plugins.) No I didn’t have all of those running at the same time. But I’ve had at least 3 of those open at the same time plus safari and no issues. The Adobe stuff seems to be least optimized and uses the most Ram. I haven’t had a chance to stress out my daw yet (Reaper ARM version) but I doubt it will be more resource hungry than the video/graphic programs. I'll be keeping my eyes peeled on your posts - curious to see how the render performance is. I'll have a 980ti from my current build that I could always toss into an expansion chassis, but I'm hoping the M1 performance will be good enough to make me avoid that pursuit.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 29, 2021 8:53:09 GMT -6
If you want low round trip latency, RME and Lynx (not over usb) are still the sanest options. If you can’t afford RME and need usb and low rtl, Steinberg.
RME representatives told me that there is no diffrence between USB3 vs TB vs FW. To my knowledge RME is still the one with the lowest RTL on the market.
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Post by enlav on Nov 29, 2021 9:04:19 GMT -6
So guys, what's actually M1 native at the moment for DAWs? I see Reaper and Studio One, from some quick searches. As long as I've used Pro Tools, I'm fully willing to go another route if it means saving money and finding something more efficient on the processing end. If you want low round trip latency, RME and Lynx (not over usb) are still the sanest options. If you can’t afford RME and need usb and low rtl, Steinberg. RME representatives told me that there is no diffrence between USB3 vs TB vs FW. To my knowledge RME is still the one with the lowest RTL on the market.
I took that comment to apply specifically to the the Aurora's performance between USB and TB which shows to be drastic. I could be wrong though, as I believe Dan mentioned some caveat to RME USB performance in one of these threads.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2021 9:23:32 GMT -6
I believe Aurora USB is limited to 16 channels , if you want more , you need another protocol : tb, etc..
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2021 9:24:58 GMT -6
Enlav logic is of course. I thought pro tools is big sur certified not certain about Monterey.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2021 9:26:37 GMT -6
So, with the M1 Macs, what's the current recommendation as far as what files are kept where? Has anything changed or do some things not matter as much as they once did?
The typical recommendation in the past for best performance, if possible, has been to run your OS and samples on an internal SSD(s) to take advantage of the speediest internal connection protocols (NVMe, etc.) versus doing something like hosting samples on an external drive connected via TB/USB. As things currently stand with the new M1 Macs, how much does this still matter? The biggest concern here is latency when using VIs, followed by load time concerns for sample libraries.
With my current PC, I have two Samsung 960 EVO 500gb SSDs in the NVMe positions on my motherboard, one for Windows and one for samples. I also have two internal 500gb Samsung 850 SSDs via sata for hosting audio session files and an external 2tb HDD as backup.
This is in addition to a six core Intel i7 8700k CPU and 32gb of ram.
So, in addition to my questions above about file storage location, I'm also generally inquiring about what sort of performance hit, if any, that I might take by downgrading to a M1 Mac Mini with only 16gb of ram and a single 1tb internal SSD (plus other external drives connected via TB)?
All of the other drives would have to be hosted outside the Mini, so now I'm looking at a dock of some kind and whatever bottleneck that may also cause, not to mention all of the additional cost of buying said dock and several additional drives.
Also, the whole swap file thing (or whatever it's called) eating up the soldered in SSD, quicker than should normally happen, has me worried since you can't replace the SSD yourself.
Maybe I'm just talking myself out of this whole thing, but I'd still be interested in hearing what sort of real world performance downgrade I can expect by leaving my PC behind for a M1 Mini?
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 29, 2021 9:32:05 GMT -6
So guys, what's actually M1 native at the moment for DAWs? I see Reaper and Studio One, from some quick searches. As long as I've used Pro Tools, I'm fully willing to go another route if it means saving money and finding something more efficient on the processing end. RME representatives told me that there is no diffrence between USB3 vs TB vs FW. To my knowledge RME is still the one with the lowest RTL on the market.
I took that comment to apply specifically to the the Aurora's performance between USB and TB which shows to be drastic. I could be wrong though, as I believe Dan mentioned some caveat to RME USB performance in one of these threads.
May things change its a year ago I got this information....
PS: Its absouloutly fun using M1 ready plug ins.
I used an M1 optimized complex dither algo today which always was a bit CPU heavey - for reasons the developper never was able to sort out. Now with the M1 plug in the CPU meter doesnt move at all.
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Post by sirthought on Nov 29, 2021 9:33:03 GMT -6
Of course Logic is native. I think I read in some thread that Luna is but they haven't called it official, whatever that means. Most of the UAD plugins are, except four or five.
Forget what Metric Halo's DAW is called, but all of their software is native.
Haven't researched others too much. Wouldn't surprise me if others aren't native yet. Kcat had posted a link in this thread to a page trying to list the status of most developers.
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Post by sirthought on Nov 29, 2021 9:49:29 GMT -6
So, with the M1 Macs, what's the current recommendation as far as what files are kept where? Has anything changed or do some things not matter as much as they once did? The typical recommendation in the past for best performance, if possible, has been to run your OS and samples on an internal SSD(s) to take advantage of the speediest internal connection protocols (NVMe, etc.) versus doing something like hosting samples on an external drive connected via TB/USB. As things currently stand with the new M1 Macs, how much does this still matter? The biggest concern here is latency when using VIs, followed by load time concerns for sample libraries. With my current PC, I have two Samsung 960 EVO 500gb SSDs in the NVMe positions on my motherboard, one for Windows and one for samples. I also have two internal 500gb Samsung 850 SSDs via sata for hosting audio session files and an external 2tb HDD as backup. This is in addition to a six core Intel i7 8700k CPU and 32gb of ram. So, in addition to my questions above about file storage location, I'm also generally inquiring about what sort of performance hit, if any, that I might take by downgrading to a M1 Mac Mini with only 16gb of ram and a single 1tb internal SSD (plus other external drives connected via TB)? All of the other drives would have to be hosted outside the Mini, so now I'm looking at a dock of some kind and whatever bottleneck that may also cause, not to mention all of the additional cost of buying said dock and several additional drives. Also, the whole swap file thing (or whatever it's called) eating up the soldered in SSD, quicker than should normally happen, has me worried since you can't replace the SSD yourself. Maybe I'm just talking myself out of this whole thing, but I'd still be interested in hearing what sort of real world performance downgrade I can expect by leaving my PC behind for a M1 Mini? No downgrade, especially if you get a hub that's recommended for M1. I'm guessing you can continue with the external drives you have and operate in a similar manner. I don't know what you mean by swap? I have most drives formatted for APFS or whatever that's called. One backup drive is still the OS Extended Journaled for Time Machine backups, but that can be on a HDD. I have a computer with 32gb RAM, and I see no downgrade in performance with the 16gb RAM in my M1 Pro. I think 16gb and 1 TB is the sweet spot.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2021 10:09:13 GMT -6
So, with the M1 Macs, what's the current recommendation as far as what files are kept where? Has anything changed or do some things not matter as much as they once did? The typical recommendation in the past for best performance, if possible, has been to run your OS and samples on an internal SSD(s) to take advantage of the speediest internal connection protocols (NVMe, etc.) versus doing something like hosting samples on an external drive connected via TB/USB. As things currently stand with the new M1 Macs, how much does this still matter? The biggest concern here is latency when using VIs, followed by load time concerns for sample libraries. With my current PC, I have two Samsung 960 EVO 500gb SSDs in the NVMe positions on my motherboard, one for Windows and one for samples. I also have two internal 500gb Samsung 850 SSDs via sata for hosting audio session files and an external 2tb HDD as backup. This is in addition to a six core Intel i7 8700k CPU and 32gb of ram. So, in addition to my questions above about file storage location, I'm also generally inquiring about what sort of performance hit, if any, that I might take by downgrading to a M1 Mac Mini with only 16gb of ram and a single 1tb internal SSD (plus other external drives connected via TB)? All of the other drives would have to be hosted outside the Mini, so now I'm looking at a dock of some kind and whatever bottleneck that may also cause, not to mention all of the additional cost of buying said dock and several additional drives. Also, the whole swap file thing (or whatever it's called) eating up the soldered in SSD, quicker than should normally happen, has me worried since you can't replace the SSD yourself. Maybe I'm just talking myself out of this whole thing, but I'd still be interested in hearing what sort of real world performance downgrade I can expect by leaving my PC behind for a M1 Mini? No downgrade, especially if you get a hub that's recommended for M1. I'm guessing you can continue with the external drives you have and operate in a similar manner. I don't know what you mean by swap? I have most drives formatted for APFS or whatever that's called. One backup drive is still the OS Extended Journaled for Time Machine backups, but that can be on a HDD. I have a computer with 32gb RAM, and I see no downgrade in performance with the 16gb RAM in my M1 Pro. I think 16gb and 1 TB is the sweet spot. The only external drive I have right now is my backup HDD. All of the other four drives I have are internal SSDs. I'd still question whether or not this is in fact a downgrade in performance, that is unless someone can speak in more specific terms about VI latency and samples hosted on an external SSD drive connected via TB to a M1 Mini versus samples hosted internally on a SSD via a NVMe connection. Got a recommendation on a M1 hub? You can Google about the swap files thing. It's a known concern. A fair number of articles dismiss it as unimportant to the average user, but recording audio means that we're writing to our drives a lot more than the average user, so it still makes me worry. I'd like to read more about it in a DAW specific context. I'd have to read up on format types. I have no idea what is recommended or required for Mac drive format these days. What are the advantages/disadvantages of the various format types? Also, if I went this route, I would be very interested in setting things up and formatting drives in such a manner to make backup to a HDD and the cloud happen automatically and as stupid simple as possible. I don't want to have to think about it. I just want it to happen in the background.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2021 11:25:22 GMT -6
Not certain it’s a downgrade either.
One way to tell: stop thinking start buying and trying.
From everything I have read for audio recording an m1, 1tb, 16 gig seems the sweet spot.
OWC makes a well reviewed hub.
If you partition your drive , you could put libraries on one section, software and OS on the other. I’d do a fresh install of only the software you want and start clean.
Not certain swapping is really an issue: buy apple care, so you also have extended support, call apple everytime you have a question, you will have paid for it and it’s support is great.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2021 11:33:57 GMT -6
I should mention that PT is definitely not extremely stable on Monterey…like I’m having crashes trying to generate a harm part with Melodyne within PT. Just know that if you buy a new Mac, you can’t downgrade from Monterey to Big Sur. At least that’s what the apple tech told me.
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Post by enlav on Nov 29, 2021 11:38:53 GMT -6
Just know that if you buy a new Mac, you can’t downgrade from Monterey to Big Sur. At least that’s what the apple tech told me. At least on the new M1Max/Pro architecture, right? I'll be attempting to downgrade to Big Sur on my M1 mac mini as soon as it gets in, but you may be right. This one is BTO, so if it's across all M1 macs, I will probably have the same issue.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2021 11:43:07 GMT -6
Not certain it’s a downgrade either. One way to tell: stop thinking start buying and trying. From everything I have read for audio recording an m1, 1tb, 16 gig seems the sweet spot. OWC makes a well reviewed hub. If you partition your drive , you could put libraries on one section, software and OS on the other. I’d do a fresh install of only the software you want and start clean. Not certain swapping is really an issue: buy apple care, so you also have extended support, call apple everytime you have a question, you will have paid for it and it’s support is great. Well I wish it was as simple as buy and try, but we're not talking about a new mic or eq here. This would be a big shift for me, for a whole host of reasons. Also, to get a full setup on Mac like I'd need it, we're talking about $2k after I add in all of the external drives, enclosure, hub, peripherals, and Apple Care. That's a lot of money to spend on something that may not even work for my needs (and will he a big pain in the ass to test out), so I'm going to do as much investigating as I can before taking the plunge.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2021 11:44:34 GMT -6
Just know that if you buy a new Mac, you can’t downgrade from Monterey to Big Sur. At least that’s what the apple tech told me. At least on the new M1Max/Pro architecture, right? I'll be attempting to downgrade to Big Sur on my M1 mac mini as soon as it gets in, but you may be right. This one is BTO, so if it's across all M1 macs, I will probably have the same issue. BTO? I've seen this term recently when looking at Minis, but didn't know what it meant.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 11:49:32 GMT -6
Consider that you can build a new alder bridge 12900 desktop for the cost of a pimped out MacBook Pro…
Windows desktop + the m1 MacBook air for on the go recording will spank so many setups.
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Post by enlav on Nov 29, 2021 11:58:31 GMT -6
At least on the new M1Max/Pro architecture, right? I'll be attempting to downgrade to Big Sur on my M1 mac mini as soon as it gets in, but you may be right. This one is BTO, so if it's across all M1 macs, I will probably have the same issue. BTO? I've seen this term recently when looking at Minis, but didn't know what it meant. Built-To-order -- I also had to look it up when I was pricing out sales and what not. Consider that you can build a new alder bridge 12900 desktop for the cost of a pimped out MacBook Pro… Windows desktop + the m1 MacBook air for on the go recording will spank so many setups. That's the dream. I'm hoping to be content for a few years, and by then hopefully supply chain issues will have resolved and the AMD vs. Intel vs. Apple competition may drive down the price of some of Intel's pricing.
I'm no expert on this market, so don't hold me to this, but I just don't see how Intel can continue to dominate various markets/industries when street prices feel like they're at all time highs. Especially when AMD performance to cost has improved greatly and from what has been reported, Apple silicon is making some waves too.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 29, 2021 12:41:32 GMT -6
Ladies and Gentelemen.
Just for the record. I did the New Logic Benchmark Test with my M1 / 16 @ 128 BS. The BS seems to have very little influence on the CPU power as long all plug-ins are M1 ready. Going up in BS does not increase the track count.
I was abele to run 110 instances of Scultptue / Channel EQ / Multipressor / Chorus / Auto Filter / PtVerb at the same time. 110 channel strips running with sound.
The best thing was: The RTL is at this high load just at 7 ms.
I love the Mini already...
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2021 12:56:12 GMT -6
Consider that you can build a new alder bridge 12900 desktop for the cost of a pimped out MacBook Pro… Windows desktop + the m1 MacBook air for on the go recording will spank so many setups. You know, I could get into the idea of doing this sort of scenario, but I have no idea how to seamlessly pass back and forth between Mac and PC. Is there a dummy's guide to doing something like this? I've never tried to do this before. How much of a pain in the neck is it to shuttle files back and forth between Mac and PC, on two different DAWs, no less?
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Post by enlav on Nov 29, 2021 13:02:21 GMT -6
Is there a dummy's guide to doing something like this? I've never tried to do this before. How much of a pain in the neck is it to shuttle files back and forth between two DAWs? I don't have or know of a guide, but assuming you're using the same DAW, you really won't have too many headaches to start with... assuming you keep the environments as similar as possible... same plugins, same DAW version, etc. It gets a little hairy in this hypothetical as you may not be able to access all the tools/plugins your Windows/PC workstation has on an M1 mini or laptop. Otherwise, in the past I would just pass an external drive from macbook pro to Win10 workstation. (The only complication that comes to mind would involve large video projects)
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2021 13:04:29 GMT -6
Is there a dummy's guide to doing something like this? I've never tried to do this before. How much of a pain in the neck is it to shuttle files back and forth between two DAWs? I don't have or know of a guide, but assuming you're using the same DAW, you really won't have too many headaches to start with... assuming you keep the environments as similar as possible... same plugins, same DAW version, etc. It gets a little hairy in this hypothetical as you may not be able to access all the tools/plugins your Windows/PC workstation has on an M1 mini or laptop. Otherwise, in the past I would just pass an external drive from macbook pro to Win10 workstation. (The only complication that comes to mind would involve large video projects) Yeah, it would be on different DAWs though. The whole reason I would be doing this in the first place would be to run Luna on Mac and then Reaper on PC. If Luna were available on PC, I'd just stick with my PC. And, honestly, the more I think about this now, having do all of the back and forth shuttling negates some of the reason that I would like to consider going Luna in the first place. I want things to be easier, not more complicated. I want simple workflow and that's the big appeal with Luna. I like the "system" approach that Luna affords. Yeah, PT HDX is a system too, but it comes with a lot of BS and cost that I don't want to deal with.
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Post by enlav on Nov 29, 2021 13:17:13 GMT -6
Yeah, it would be on different DAWs though. The whole reason I would be doing this in the first place would be to run Luna on Mac and then Reaper on PC. If Luna were available on PC, I'd just stick with my PC. Aaaah - no simple task, I would imagine. I would note that I'm absolutely not familiar with how UAD integrates with a third party DAW vs. how it works in Luna; but I would hope and I imagine others can chime in, that the DSP settings could be snapshot/saved/etc. and loaded in the other instance. If not - that's probably going to be the first annoyance you'll deal with. I'm not really hip on what DAW's can do nowadays with foreign session files. Coming from Pro Tools, which is always features behind the competition, and still has hiccups importing OMF and AAF files from other DAWs or NLEs. But my guess is that you'd be losing all plugin settings/assignments and what not going from DAW to DAW. So if it's a one-way street, you could commit/bounce everything you need in one down to finish it in the final DAW.
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