|
Post by RealNoob on Sept 21, 2021 19:31:54 GMT -6
So, I watched a video where someone nulled the Reaper ReaEQ with the new Harrison 32C plugin - NOT in MB 32C. Harrison made a big deal advertising that they modeled every resistor, screw (kidding), etc... so when ReaEQ nulled with the 32C plugin, it tells me that they didn't model anything. Why? Because modeled EQ plugins have something extra - noise, hiss, whatever they code to provide the punch and/or warmth of the hardware unit. Harrison is clean but not straight wire clean. People LOVE the flavor of the 32C channel strip... even just the filters. So if they modeled that channel strip, a basic digital EQ would not null. I am right aren't I? Am I taking crazy pills?
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Sept 21, 2021 19:58:22 GMT -6
Simply put: plugin makers are full of shit. Re: crazy pills...i guess this is like the pro audio red pill.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2021 20:03:36 GMT -6
Damn. That was a takedown
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2021 20:06:08 GMT -6
That’s some better business bureau bullshit
|
|
|
Post by RealNoob on Sept 21, 2021 20:07:25 GMT -6
Exactly JK and Mike Caffrey is arguing with me. I expect better from him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 20:26:25 GMT -6
Well yeah dude this is the plugin equivalent of non alcoholic beer.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 21, 2021 20:27:49 GMT -6
Damn that's really fukked up.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
|
Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2021 20:33:33 GMT -6
Simply put: plugin makers are full of shit. Re: crazy pills...i guess this is like the pro audio red pill. Wait Benny people in the audio biz can be untruthful? The shame😎
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
|
Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2021 20:34:41 GMT -6
So, I watched a video where someone nulled the Reaper ReaEQ with the new Harrison 32C plugin - NOT in MB 32C. Harrison made a big deal advertising that they modeled every resistor, screw (kidding), etc... so when ReaEQ nulled with the 32C plugin, it tells me that they didn't model anything. Why? Because modeled EQ plugins have something extra - noise, hiss, whatever they code to provide the punch and/or warmth of the hardware unit. Harrison is clean but not straight wire clean. People LOVE the flavor of the 32C channel strip... even just the filters. So if they modeled that channel strip, a basic digital EQ would not null. I am right aren't I? Am I taking crazy pills? This why you forget all the ad copy and simply listen, trust your ears not the BS!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 20:37:07 GMT -6
The resonant filters are where the only magic is. Then using the leveler as a fader ride or to pump rooms. It doesn't totally null. ReaEQ is cleaner. The dynamics have too many holds so they basically don't compress. Using the leveler to pump rooms is like getting drunk on Miller Lite. I have Vulf Comp and the Fuse VCL-373 which are Hiroshima and Nagasaki compared to this.
70 dollars towards Renaissance MAXX bundle has dynamics that do more and an eq whose whole point is weirdly resonant filters.
Oxford EQ is 70 bucks now at Audio Deluxe. Kicks harrison's ass. Better in every way.
60 euros gets the TDR Slick EQ bundle. GE and M. Super fast workflow and super useful. Soviet mode and the various output stages can get crazy.
|
|
|
Post by superwack on Sept 21, 2021 21:54:55 GMT -6
The thread about this over at the other space, post for post, is one of the most ignorant and that’s saying a LOT!
Someone made the perfectly reasonable point that - as much as they loved the channel strip - they wanted to know why in 2021 any EQ would have cramping but especially one that is being sold as a 1:1 component model of the 1975 32C EQ that, of course, does NOT cramp.
One of the responses was “I’d like to see someone run an analog transformer through Plug-in Doctor, then people would stop worrying about cramping” 🤦🏼♂️
As the kids say “tell me you have no idea what cramping is or does without telling me you have no idea what cramping is or does!” this comment has been quoted a number of times as if it really made a good point and has gotten dozens of thumbs ups!
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2021 22:32:26 GMT -6
The thread about this over at the other space, post for post, is one of the most ignorant and that’s saying a LOT! Someone made the perfectly reasonable point that - as much as they loved the channel strip - they wanted to know why in 2021 any EQ would have cramping but especially one that is being sold as a 1:1 component model of the 1975 32C EQ that, of course, does NOT cramp. One of the responses was “I’d like to see someone run an analog transformer through Plug-in Doctor, then people would stop worrying about cramping” 🤦🏼♂️ As the kids say “tell me you have no idea what cramping is or does without telling me you have no idea what cramping is or does!” this comment has been quoted a number of times as if it really made a good point and has gotten dozens of thumbs ups! I have to be honest…I don’t know what cramping is.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2021 22:36:58 GMT -6
“ Cramping occurs when bell-shaped boosts/cuts approach Nyquist and the bell becomes asymmetrical, that is, the high-frequency side gets squashed.”
I’ve never gotten this far in the weeds, honestly…just didn’t use the plugs I thought sounded bad…and in all honesty - I really don’t do a lot of eq boosts. So is this why lots of times we talk about how HW eq seems so effortless and non-harsh?
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Sept 21, 2021 22:53:58 GMT -6
I thought cramping was when frequencies from different sources were competing for room. I always thought the EQ techniques were used with dynamics to perform ducking or masking.
I guess I was wrong.
I did watch Dan's video with interest. There's another YouTuber who really slams this plugin too. I don't recall seeing any plugin get so openly slammed in this manner from YouTubers who'd normally want to remain cozy with a pro audio developer.
|
|
|
Post by superwack on Sept 21, 2021 23:09:20 GMT -6
“ Cramping occurs when bell-shaped boosts/cuts approach Nyquist and the bell becomes asymmetrical, that is, the high-frequency side gets squashed.” I’ve never gotten this far in the weeds, honestly…just didn’t use the plugs I thought sounded bad…and in all honesty - I really don’t do a lot of eq boosts. So is this why lots of times we talk about how HW eq seems so effortless and non-harsh? Exactly. It’s not really something you should have to know or worry about. The curve squishes as opposed to maintaining its shape as you approach the nyquist frequency (so 22k in a 44.1 session) It is not really that important if you aren’t trying to boost high frequencies but It is bad DSP and it’s something no company should be coding in 2021 especially when it’s claimed to be an accurate recreation of a hardware EQ that cannot cramp
|
|
|
Post by superwack on Sept 22, 2021 10:34:23 GMT -6
Here's a quick Plugin Doctor shot of 32C (yellow) vs. TDR Slick EQ (pink) you can see how the bell of the 32C is not symmetrical once it crosses Nyquist (22.5 kHz) but the TDR maintains it's shape even though it's being truncated at Nyquist.
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Sept 22, 2021 10:49:14 GMT -6
Quite interesting discussion. I was not familiar with cramping in EQs. That probably explains why I don't mind boosting the high end in Crave but completely hate boosting in F6. I have no plots to back up what I'm saying but that would explain what I'm hearing, if in fact I am correct.
|
|
|
Post by superwack on Sept 22, 2021 12:01:39 GMT -6
Quite interesting discussion. I was not familiar with cramping in EQs. That probably explains why I don't mind boosting the high end in Crave but completely hate boosting in F6. I have no plots to back up what I'm saying but that would explain what I'm hearing, if in fact I am correct. Bob Olhsson has long made the point that all the DSP (dithering, aliasing, cramping, etc.) should be handled by the DAW and isn't something us normals should have to be concerned about but, alas, that's not the case so it's good to have an understanding. Cramping will definitely manifest itself as digital harshness so it very well could be why F6 bothers you - I don't have it so I am not sure. What the GS'ers don't seem to understand is that it is wrong - it is bad coding - but It does not render a plugin useless (except maybe for boosting high frequencies) but my argument is that we have a zillion plugins these days that sound good so it's no longer "just about the sound" there are those that don't cramp, those that don't alias, those you like the interface of and those you don't we can all afford to be picky for whatever reason we want and none of us need to force ourselves to use anything we don't connect to or doesn't inspire us or is damaging to the audio in a way that it shouldn't be.
|
|
|
Post by enlav on Sept 22, 2021 12:28:00 GMT -6
This is the type of spice that got me reading RGO (flashback to Weird Audio Microphones). Bob Olhsson has long made the point that all the DSP (dithering, aliasing, cramping, etc.) should be handled by the DAW and isn't something us normals should have to be concerned about but, alas, that's not the case so it's good to have an understanding.[...] (Do you have a source/link to this discussion? I'd love to read more on it.)
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 22, 2021 13:57:41 GMT -6
Anybody want to name a few eq plugs that don’t have this issue? So all over samples plugs don’t have cramping?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 17:26:39 GMT -6
Here's a quick Plugin Doctor shot of 32C (yellow) vs. TDR Slick EQ (pink) you can see how the bell of the 32C is not symmetrical once it crosses Nyquist (22.5 kHz) but the TDR maintains it's shape even though it's being truncated at Nyquist. View AttachmentYeah so boosting the beater of a kick just sounds bad for example. Same as ReaEQ. It’s a side effect of biquad filters and nyquist limit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 17:40:26 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by ab101 on Sept 22, 2021 17:51:31 GMT -6
I just bought the Oxford eq for $70. I assume it is V3. I have the original and like it, but thought it was time to upgrade for this reduced price. Glad to know that it is one of the decramped ones (even though I do not understand it, I just know it sounds good).
Dan (or anyone else) - do any of the DMG eqs have this decramping? I have the DMG equality which I like a lot.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 20:03:27 GMT -6
I just bought the Oxford eq for $70. I assume it is V3. I have the original and like it, but thought it was time to upgrade for this reduced price. Glad to know that it is one of the decramped ones (even though I do not understand it, I just know it sounds good). Dan (or anyone else) - do any of the DMG eqs have this decramping? I have the DMG equality which I like a lot. Yes. DMG Equilibrium has it all by the workflow isn’t the best imo. It needs a GUI update. It has the Oxford eqs in it but it’s slower to dial in than the real thing.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 23, 2021 15:19:51 GMT -6
Anybody want to name a few eq plugs that don’t have this issue? So all over samples plugs don’t have cramping?
Stock Logic X EQ in OS mode.
|
|