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Post by mike on Sept 12, 2021 11:27:17 GMT -6
Thought about this after the tracking vocals thread, but I'm wondering where you've landed in your tuning vocals journey as it seems some tune vocals hard doing the whole vocal track tight to the grid, - while others do the opposite of only tuning the notes that sound noticeably off, and leave the ones that are slightly off the grid as is because it seems more natural and also because some feel plugs can flatten the audio, so they keep it minimal.
What's your approach, tips and tricks?
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Post by drumsound on Sept 12, 2021 12:09:27 GMT -6
Unless it's totally weird and not something that can be punched, I don't tune. I hate the 'must tune' ethos. Most singers are somewhat around the pitch, and generally that is fine, and what I expect to hear, if that makes any sense.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 12, 2021 12:39:24 GMT -6
There is no grid for pitch!!
You can only tune vocals by ear - there is no other way - you cannot use any visual reference.
One tunes with software as a singer sings - by ear!
The songs chords (and instruments playing those chords) have complex harmonic content and structures and you are tuning your vocal syllables
(namely vowel content) in reference to that harmonic overlay - therefore you must only use your ear for a natural sounding result.
My approach is to do 5 takes of a section (occasionally the whole song) then mark each line out of 10 for pitch, tone, phrasing etc.
9 and 10's are keepers.
Any phrases that need fixing get re-sung or if the singer is tired, not present or the phrase has some quality deemed unrepeatable then I'll
use software to tune by ear against the backing track.
It's a process for sure - but worth it in the finished result.
95% of pitching issues are avoided by taking the headphones off the singer and giving him a monitor based monitoring solution (there's lot's of methods out there
to avoid excessive bleed) headphones are a very real issue for all but the most naturally accurate singers and even then .... the results are often better without
headphones.
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 12, 2021 13:06:11 GMT -6
I tune as hard as necessary, which means sometimes I tune the fuck out of my recordings and sometimes I leave them relatively untouched. But it's never so drastic that it sounds like a vocoder (unless it's a pop or hip hop song where Auto-Tune is called for). Generally speaking, my process is this: 1. Record 3 - 6 takes of lead vocals 2. Comp the best phrases onto one track 3. Import LV comp to Melodyne 4. Manually adjust all notes to where they sound best (0ct is my starting point for every note, but sometimes certain notes sound better a little sharp or flat) 5. Split off beginnings and tail ends of notes, re-adjust pitches where needed 6. Adjust pitch drift so that the pitch stays stable over time 7. If necessary, adjust the modulation (I rarely do this, only for really problematic notes) 8. Pull all breaths down by 7 - 8 dB 9. Adjust timing of notes to match the song I do it all by hand and use my ears to gauge what sounds best (totally agree with thehightenor here). I have a similar process for doubles and harmonies, but I'm way less picky about those — I'll usually breeze through them and tune super hard. In the context of a mix, you won't hear it. It's the lead vocal that needs to sound "natural." This obviously isn't appropriate for every genre, but if you do any sort of modern pop, rock, indie, EDM, etc. it works like a charm. |
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 12, 2021 13:16:28 GMT -6
For most genres, I listen for distracting notes, and tune each by hand. Half the time the funky notes end up "on the grid", the other half, the 'grid' sounds unnatural so I gotta tweak it by ear. I'm a melodyne user, btw.
Some styles / singers sound a bit more 'polished' with Auto Tune (set to auto mode), though, so I'll use that from time to time. But it still comes AFTER the hand-tuned melodyne.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 13, 2021 9:28:26 GMT -6
Depends on the singer. But I usually tune (melodyne by hand) aspects of everything. Just do it until it sounds good. Don't be scared to not tune it...I've gotten to the point where I can tell what will tune without artifacts and what won't.
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 13, 2021 16:07:15 GMT -6
I do a fair amount in my job. I hardly tune right down the center unless someone wants it. My own stuff I tend not to tune. I'll punch in before I tune. It's a bit genre dependent too, though.
Some people can be really close to the pitch but it's just off in the worst way, others can dance around the pitch and sound great. It's weird. I try to err on the side of too little.
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Post by M57 on Sept 13, 2021 17:58:02 GMT -6
I'm glad you brought up this topic mike . I was thinking of bringing it up myself. I'm a DIYer, so I only tune myself. I have very little experience tuning other vocalists. I use the stock Logic tuner. I probably should shell out for Melodyne, but the Logic tuner seems to be doing what I need. I tune everything be ear, and pretty much using tkaikai's method. If "on the grid" means 0 cents, then I almost never end up tuning to the grid. The harmonics of things make it such that sometimes 15 or 20 cents flat is where it belongs. Strangely, I rarely ever tune or sing things sharp. MAYBE if it's the third of the major. chord, etc. Clearly it's all about function ..and genre. |
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Post by aremos on Sept 13, 2021 18:11:37 GMT -6
95% of pitching issues are avoided by taking the headphones off the singer and giving him a monitor based monitoring solution (there's lot's of methods out there to avoid excessive bleed) headphones are a very real issue for all but the most naturally accurate singers and even then .... the results are often better without headphones. This |
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Post by M57 on Sept 13, 2021 18:31:38 GMT -6
95% of pitching issues are avoided by taking the headphones off the singer and giving him a monitor based monitoring solution (there's lot's of methods out there to avoid excessive bleed) headphones are a very real issue for all but the most naturally accurate singers and even then .... the results are often better without headphones. This Moving one earphone about half way off makes all the difference for me. I guess my reticence about using a live monitor has been that I will never be able to move things horizontally on the playing field without running into some serious phase issues. |
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Post by aremos on Sept 13, 2021 19:05:05 GMT -6
Yes, Also.
One has to find their comfort zone, as a singer, so their technique can work. I can do it with half an earphone - with the music really up on the ear that is using the phones & allow other ear to feel/hear the voice itself.
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Post by jmoose on Sept 13, 2021 19:47:03 GMT -6
I hardly ever tune vocals anymore. But will also put a disclaimer on it...
With the circles I usually travel I've gained a reputation as the guy who won't automatically reach for things like tuning & drum samples. Happy to do it when someone asks or it's really needed but it's not a reflex reaction. Hasn't been for a long time.
Projects that come in for mixing? Generally if someone wants to tune vocals they've already done it. Tuning is part of editing, not mixing.
One thing I've learned by experience is that tuning vocals is a slippery slope. Once you start, kinda gotta keep going.
Have been a few albums over the years where we'd do something like tune the lead but not the backing & they would start to rub and sound really strange. So I'm either all in or all out.
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Post by drbill on Sept 13, 2021 20:57:23 GMT -6
What's your approach, tips and tricks?
I don't have a "go to" dogmatic approach. I do whatever it takes to make it feel good in the track. I try to go as minimal as possible. Generally I'll use Auto Tune lightly. I'll automate various parameters to bring things back in close without perfection, and without being heavy handed. If there are specific problematic areas where AT is just too noticeable, or if the vocal is wonky out of tune, I'll use Pitch N Time Pro manually to fix it. |
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Post by mcirish on Sept 14, 2021 8:30:34 GMT -6
I use Nuendo so my vocal tuning is always in VariAudio. Very subtle and I only fix what needs fixing. I don't have much experience with Melodyne but in VariAudio I can set the area to be affected by the pitch correction. In this way, I am able to keep the bluesy swoop into notes but be able to tweak the pitch of the held note. It's a great tool. The newest versions of it really sped up my workflow. I do have to say that I don't want to hear any autotuning. Usually, when I use something that does it automatically, I can hear it. I much prefer to correct it manually so it sound the most natural. It's a shame that we even have to do it. I don't mind doing subtle things but once you get heavy handed, things don't sound "human" anymore. I do believe that much of the emotional connection is found in the slight tuning variances. "Perfect" doesn't sound perfect to me. Tuning vocals is kind of a love/hate thing. I love it when it's imperceptible.
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Post by mike on Sept 14, 2021 19:32:28 GMT -6
Thanks to all of you for sharing your approach, I appreciate it and hearing the perspective of multiple people for a larger context, as it seems most all are generally in the same ball park. I agree with as minimal as possible, using ears over eyes, and I also find less pitch issues if the singer has one headphone off IME.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 17, 2021 21:30:53 GMT -6
For myself, almost no tuning, perhaps an occasional note or two, but even then I don't "zero" it out. For other people, whatever it takes.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 19, 2021 13:42:35 GMT -6
Do you Melodyne guys use the plug-in or stand alone app? Does the standalone app sound better? I’ve just been using the plug-in because it’s easy.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 19, 2021 15:28:17 GMT -6
Do you Melodyne guys use the plug-in or stand alone app? Does the standalone app sound better? I’ve just been using the plug-in because it’s easy. Sound the same. I use the standalone and just import in. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 19, 2021 15:29:09 GMT -6
indiehouse I use the plugin. Around 10 years ago, I used to export WAVs and load them into the standalone version, but I've never noticed any difference sonically. Only reason I did it that way was because the plugin didn't work well on the laptop I had at the time.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 19, 2021 16:24:29 GMT -6
I plan to use a (mild) form of Pitch Correction, sometimes for more challenging vocals... As a helpful rehearsal reference point. Bandlab has an easy process for this, for the more technically challenged-like me.  Chris |
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Post by Guitar on Sept 21, 2021 15:44:40 GMT -6
Almost never, is my preference.
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Post by popmann on Sept 24, 2021 11:35:34 GMT -6
Do you Melodyne guys use the plug-in or stand alone app? Does the standalone app sound better? I’ve just been using the plug-in because it’s easy. Sound the same. I use the standalone and just import in. Not on Cubase with its ARA ? You might check it out. I demo’d it—pretty slick how you just assign the extention in cubase and it becomes the bottom pane…. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 24, 2021 21:24:25 GMT -6
Sound the same. I use the standalone and just import in. Not on Cubase with its ARA ? You might check it out. I demo’d it—pretty slick how you just assign the extention in cubase and it becomes the bottom pane…. Mostly use PT |
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Post by schmalzy on Sept 24, 2021 23:04:23 GMT -6
I'm not shy about using any of my mixing tools to fix problems. Sometimes that problem is something that's sounding off in pitch. People hire me to make them sound as good as they can and I do whatever I can to help them reach their goals. When that includes vocal tuning I always discuss what their tolerance is for being off and I try to honor that. I don't go looking for something to be off but if I hear it I'll deal with it.
I tune the lead vocal as a last resort. If a vocal sounds out but there are other vocals at the same time, I'll tune everything besides the lead first to see if that helps. Sometimes making everything else stiff gives a little more freedom to the lead vocal. Sometimes it makes the out-of-tune-ness stand out even more.
If everything else is close/tight to pitch and it still doesn't feel great I'll start with AutoTune on the specific lead vocal clips that feel outside my tolerance. I'll use a slow retune speed and higher amounts of "flextune" and "humanize." Basically, I'm trying to get that clip to feel closer to on rather than dead on. If I have to significantly move notes I'll use a different tuner - I like Reaper's ReaTune - and draw the pitch in manually (but using a slow speed) so it'll start out closer and again use AutoTune to nudge it a little closer still. Then it becomes a dance between the retune speed, the flextune, and the humanize parameters if I need to tune harder.
I try to leave as much sauce on the lead vocal even if that means tuning the background a little tighter than I'd like. Most of the emotion comes from that lead vocal so I'm going for the minimum effective dose at all times when it comes to things that could mess up that emotional communcation. Sometimes the minimum effective dose is a sledgehammer.
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