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Post by bgrotto on Sept 12, 2021 11:38:11 GMT -6
Those are the same thing. Guessing he meant bit depth and sr Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought bit rate was describing digital headroom while dynamic range is a term in analogue and digital domains. Analogue headroom is purely determined by voltage. High voltage mixers like the RND 5060 or SSLs have high voltage rails= super high output and apparently a more dynamic and "large format console type" sound Digital headroom is permanently fixed at 0dBfs, regardless of bit depth. This is non-negotiable (until you get into floating math which is way over my head; but for OTB / real-world purposes, 0dBfs is the tops) ***(quick pedantic aside: bit *rate* is something else entirely and not relevant to this discussion)*** Higher bit depth means lower quantization error noise, which translates to increased dynamic range. You could think of it as "footroom", in a sense. Higher voltage in an analog system does indeed typically improve headroom. But I don't think it's accurate to say it's *purely* determined by voltage. There are plenty of things that can go wrong in an analog system to eat up or limit headroom! FWIW, i don't think SSLs have particularly high voltage rails...i think it's like 18v or something? Maybe 24? There are people here who've forgotten volumes more than I know about this stuff, so surely someone can chime in there. The RND stuff is wonderful. One studio I was on staff at had a 5088 and it was indeed a phenomenal sounding desk. On the other hand, the headroom of a console is NOT what defines its "LFC-type" sound. It's part of the equation, no doubt, but there are many excellent-sounding desks with much more 'pedestrian' voltage rails. Hope that helps, and i especially hope one of our resident brainiacs will correct / expand on this post as necessary.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 12, 2021 12:09:52 GMT -6
DSD was a failed format that crashed and burned spectacularly when “multi-bit “ (most just run multiple decimators and modulators but TI uses a hybrid approach with resistors like earlier DA chips) delta sigma converters came out in the late 90s that all output pcm and use switchers faster than 64x 44.1khz. DSD literally can’t take advantage of such technological advances. Blackdawg DXD is just 24-bit, 352.8 kHz pcm. Yes I know it is. I work with 32/384 dxd files almost daily.
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Post by drsax on Sept 12, 2021 12:23:01 GMT -6
High end AD while printing back into your DAW is the solution to this issue. Nonetheless, conversion is conversion, and isn’t going to sound exactly the same as an all analog monitoring chain. I use outboard and high end conversion on my master buss, monitoring from the DAW post ADDA master buss roundtrip - so I am hearing exactly what is being printed. And when printed, it sounds exactly the same as what I hear when I’m monitoring. I’ve been using the Lynx Hilo as my master Buss ADDA and also as my DA for monitoring. The final printed result is exactly as I hear it while working.
P.S. It serves us to try different converters and find something that gives us an outstanding result. I AB’ed 4 different high end AD converters to capture my mixes. The Lynx Hilo is where I personally landed because it maintained the stereo image, not wider or more narrow, high end and low end was maintained without drastic changes. Lavry was beautiful but softer and slightly smeared, Burl was delicious, but not as accurate (I love tracking through my Burl though!). All that said… it took some testing and trials to get it right for me. And since I did those tests, there have been further gains in converter designs… lots of good choices out there!
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Post by nomorel2020 on Sept 12, 2021 14:00:29 GMT -6
High end AD while printing back into your DAW is the solution to this issue. Nonetheless, conversion is conversion, and isn’t going to sound exactly the same as an all analog monitoring chain. I use outboard and high end conversion on my master buss, monitoring from the DAW post ADDA master buss roundtrip - so I am hearing exactly what is being printed. And when printed, it sounds exactly the same as what I hear when I’m monitoring. I’ve been using the Lynx Hilo as my master Buss ADDA and also as my DA for monitoring. The final printed result is exactly as I hear it while working. P.S. It serves us to try different converters and find something that gives us an outstanding result. I AB’ed 4 different high end AD converters to capture my mixes. The Lynx Hilo is where I personally landed because it maintained the stereo image, not wider or more narrow, high end and low end was maintained without drastic changes. Lavry was beautiful but softer and slightly smeared, Burl was delicious, but not as accurate (I love tracking through my Burl though!). All that said… it took some testing and trials to get it right for me. And since I did those tests, there have been further gains in converter designs… lots of good choices out there! Thank you. That's what I've come to realize too. What converters have you shot out besides the Hilo? I'm interested in both the Antelope Amari ( terrible software but great hardware it seems) and the Hilo. Other options like the Hedd Quantum or Burl/Prism is too much for my budget of about 1,5k EUR.
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Post by svart on Sept 12, 2021 15:24:17 GMT -6
THe mixer in question is a pretty decent studer 169 clone with lots of transformers on every channel. If I monitor off the mixer as opposed to in the DAW the mix is wide, very spacious and has lots of dimension and punch. As soon as it gets in the box it sounds flat, alot narrower and loses it's magic. I have a very expensive clock which I bought and it improved transients and clarity by alot but the width is still far from what I hear from the mixer- would the missing link be a very expensive AD or am I missing something? Monitor the output from the daw, not the mixer, if you want to know how it really sounds. It's unlikely that your a/d is making that huge a difference unless something is set wrong
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 12, 2021 15:47:52 GMT -6
THe mixer in question is a pretty decent studer 169 clone with lots of transformers on every channel. If I monitor off the mixer as opposed to in the DAW the mix is wide, very spacious and has lots of dimension and punch. As soon as it gets in the box it sounds flat, alot narrower and loses it's magic. I have a very expensive clock which I bought and it improved transients and clarity by alot but the width is still far from what I hear from the mixer- would the missing link be a very expensive AD or am I missing something? Monitor the output from the daw, not the mixer, if you want to know how it really sounds. It's unlikely that your a/d is making that huge a difference unless something is set wrongYeah this was sorta my thought too. A/Ds mostly sound pretty damn good these days.
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Post by gouge on Sept 12, 2021 16:10:05 GMT -6
tascam da3000 is 830 euros.
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Post by drsax on Sept 12, 2021 16:27:20 GMT -6
Yes, most modern converters are very good. In my experience and testing, better AD makes a very noticeable difference, especially in regards to depth and width of a mix capture. It was not a small difference to my ears. My UA Apollo converters sound great, but next to my Hilo, or some others, there’s a tangible difference. I agree that if you want to hear the capture, you must monitor the final DAW stereo buss, not the analog chain. But when you hear that big of a difference, I suspect it’s the AD. One other possibility is how hard you are hitting the AD coming back into your DAW. Some converters change in behavior as you push their level. Before you start hunting for new converters, maybe try pulling the level back coming back into your DAW and make sure you’re not hitting the AD too hard. Conversely, some converters exhibit desirable analog like behavior when pushed. It’s worth experimenting with to find the sweet spot.
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Post by christopher on Sept 12, 2021 23:13:05 GMT -6
There will always be a hit to quality vs analog. However, if you put the post captured sound from converters back out to channels hitting the 2bus again, should repair most of the missing magic, but only while listening of course. If it’s obviously totally different, probably because you aren’t capturing exactly what you are hearing. If you are using headphones out, have to capture the headphones out, not the 2bus. Same with monitor out on the board. Have to capture monitor outputs, not the 2bus. Summing amps seem to be sensitive to slight gain differences, so one out might saturate at different levels than the next, it’s just the way it is. Btw, how do you like the studer clone? Examples I’ve heard seem to be pretty thick with distortion and crazy wide
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Post by nomorel2020 on Sept 13, 2021 3:15:45 GMT -6
I send stuff out to the mixer, print it back in the DAW and sum through it also. I have a presonus quantum with a bla micro clock xb. The latter hugely improved both ad and da but it's still not quite what I hear on the analog monitor out...
You expect it to sound the same. If that's your expectation, why the mixer? Sure, it changes the game ads analog artifacts.
Try to recreate your summing / mixing scenario in the DAW with plug ins, and it will sound different, aka wider more punchy etc.
I’m not expecting it to be the same as staying itb but staying close to the post DA pre AD mix i hear on the analogue side. Pls no “plugins are the same” discussion. If it was in any way the same these pieces of gear would not cost an arm and a leg.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Sept 13, 2021 3:17:00 GMT -6
Yes, most modern converters are very good. In my experience and testing, better AD makes a very noticeable difference, especially in regards to depth and width of a mix capture. It was not a small difference to my ears. My UA Apollo converters sound great, but next to my Hilo, or some others, there’s a tangible difference. I agree that if you want to hear the capture, you must monitor the final DAW stereo buss, not the analog chain. But when you hear that big of a difference, I suspect it’s the AD. One other possibility is how hard you are hitting the AD coming back into your DAW. Some converters change in behavior as you push their level. Before you start hunting for new converters, maybe try pulling the level back coming back into your DAW and make sure you’re not hitting the AD too hard. Conversely, some converters exhibit desirable analog like behavior when pushed. It’s worth experimenting with to find the sweet spot. I usually pad the mix down before hitting my ad. I’ll try it thanks. What ADs did you compare the Hilo with before settling on it?
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Post by nomorel2020 on Sept 13, 2021 3:21:44 GMT -6
There will always be a hit to quality vs analog. However, if you put the post captured sound from converters back out to channels hitting the 2bus again, should repair most of the missing magic, but only while listening of course. If it’s obviously totally different, probably because you aren’t capturing exactly what you are hearing. If you are using headphones out, have to capture the headphones out, not the 2bus. Same with monitor out on the board. Have to capture monitor outputs, not the 2bus. Summing amps seem to be sensitive to slight gain differences, so one out might saturate at different levels than the next, it’s just the way it is. Btw, how do you like the studer clone? Examples I’ve heard seem to be pretty thick with distortion and crazy wide As i said before: the headphone out is literally the same signal path as the monitor out according to the schematics. I compared the monitor out and main out before and the main out sounds better and bigger. It is NOT a signal path issue. The studer clone (acousta p100) sounds great. Discrete Pres and line ins on every channel. Get one if you find a good offer. I found one for 750 EUR but had to mod the inputs from LEMO to XLR.
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Post by drsax on Sept 13, 2021 8:38:08 GMT -6
Yes, most modern converters are very good. In my experience and testing, better AD makes a very noticeable difference, especially in regards to depth and width of a mix capture. It was not a small difference to my ears. My UA Apollo converters sound great, but next to my Hilo, or some others, there’s a tangible difference. I agree that if you want to hear the capture, you must monitor the final DAW stereo buss, not the analog chain. But when you hear that big of a difference, I suspect it’s the AD. One other possibility is how hard you are hitting the AD coming back into your DAW. Some converters change in behavior as you push their level. Before you start hunting for new converters, maybe try pulling the level back coming back into your DAW and make sure you’re not hitting the AD too hard. Conversely, some converters exhibit desirable analog like behavior when pushed. It’s worth experimenting with to find the sweet spot. I usually pad the mix down before hitting my ad. I’ll try it thanks. What ADs did you compare the Hilo with before settling on it? Lavry, Burl, Hilo, Antelope, SSL, UA Apollo & Svart’s Converters. Hilo & Svartbox were the best in terms of an accuracy to the source, with Hilo being my personal fav. Burl was so nice, but colored (so I love that for tracking but not to capture my mix). Lavry was very nice but sounded a bit smeared/soft in the highs compared to the Hilo. UA was nice but not in the same league. Antelope was too bright for my tastes. SSL was even less desirable with some HF buildup and a bit of a nasal quality compared to the others.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 13, 2021 10:09:44 GMT -6
If your going high end, Id suggest a Merging Technologies Hapi too. Or AX32.
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Post by svart on Sept 13, 2021 10:47:33 GMT -6
There will always be a hit to quality vs analog. However, if you put the post captured sound from converters back out to channels hitting the 2bus again, should repair most of the missing magic, but only while listening of course. If it’s obviously totally different, probably because you aren’t capturing exactly what you are hearing. If you are using headphones out, have to capture the headphones out, not the 2bus. Same with monitor out on the board. Have to capture monitor outputs, not the 2bus. Summing amps seem to be sensitive to slight gain differences, so one out might saturate at different levels than the next, it’s just the way it is. Btw, how do you like the studer clone? Examples I’ve heard seem to be pretty thick with distortion and crazy wide I compared the monitor out and main out before and the main out sounds better and bigger. It is NOT a signal path issue. Aren't these conflicting statements?
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Post by nomorel2020 on Sept 13, 2021 13:21:43 GMT -6
I usually pad the mix down before hitting my ad. I’ll try it thanks. What ADs did you compare the Hilo with before settling on it? Lavry, Burl, Hilo, Antelope, SSL, UA Apollo & Svart’s Converters. Hilo & Svartbox were the best in terms of an accuracy to the source, with Hilo being my personal fav. Burl was so nice, but colored (so I love that for tracking but not to capture my mix). Lavry was very nice but sounded a bit smeared/soft in the highs compared to the Hilo. UA was nice but not in the same league. Antelope was too bright for my tastes. SSL was even less desirable with some HF buildup and a bit of a nasal quality compared to the others. Thanks! Very helpful. I'm presuming you tried the Pure2 as opposed to the Amari right? I have yet to read someone's comparison of the two. But Mike Dean seems to prefer to Hilo too. Guess I'll go by that guy's actions. Hilo's drivers and support seem great too.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 13, 2021 14:05:38 GMT -6
I compared the monitor out and main out before and the main out sounds better and bigger. It is NOT a signal path issue. Aren't these conflicting statements? Me too, I am still confused about the question in the first place....
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Post by craigmorris74 on Sept 13, 2021 15:09:07 GMT -6
Is the digital mix going back through the console your monitors? If not the DA converter could be interacting less efficiently with your monitor amps, causing the mix to sound different.
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Post by christopher on Sept 13, 2021 22:29:31 GMT -6
As i said before: the headphone out is literally the same signal path as the monitor out according to the schematics. Even with exact same schematics, they can sometimes act a little differently. Mostly it’s because different loading and gain staging IME. Say if my monitor level is set to 60% for example, I might not be pushing that output into overdrive. But is my 2 bus set to 60%.. not usually. Often 2bus likes 80-100% for some thickness, and really let the non-linear stuff happen. Now.. most boards have the monitor out as a separate circuit from the 2Bus, same with headphones.. so really you’d have extra stages involved. Not sure if it’s summing amps like a solo bus would have, or buffers, or etc. sounds like you say it’s the exact same, so in essence you are summing twice(possibly). Is the feed to the monitor/Hp bus pre/post 2bus fader? If post fader, probably over driving the opamps on the headphone bus. If it’s pre fader, probably not hearing the overdrive. And then there’s the load question.. what is the loading of the monitors? Is it the same as the AD converter? Things like that are part of the puzzle.
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Post by popmann on Sept 14, 2021 11:44:18 GMT -6
Yeah--just because the signal flow diagram shows it's mutled from the same source, no guarantee with analog the two output paths will sound the same. You HAVE noticed every channel of your mixer sounds a little different, right? You're welcome. #rabbithole
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Post by nomorel2020 on Sept 14, 2021 23:56:21 GMT -6
I know it’s well intentioned but if I trusted the same people who say it’s not the converter and not the clock, not the mixing console, not the *insert expensive gear* but just one’s ears this very expensive bla clock I bought would not make the huge difference in clarity and depth it does. Again I ask those people: why would something cost thousands of dollars and not go on sale if it made no big difference in sound? Why don’t all mixers just use a focusrite scarlett and call it a day?
This isn’t meant as an insult but following one’s ears and not the posts of some people who may or may not be knowledgeable made me reevaluate all “advice” given online by anons.
Coming back to the topic: why would the “inferior” headphone output be the issue at hand here lmao??? As I said multiple times in this thread already: i compared all outputs and the master out sounds the best (obviously cause it has a hotter output due to the tranny)
Mods can close this thread. I have my answer already as it’s the AD/DA that loses all the detail and dimension of the analogue mix. It fits my experience of the AD/DA with a hq clock being probably the most important aspect of truthful mixing (are you really hearing what’s there?)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 15, 2021 7:52:22 GMT -6
I've found that bouncing in Logic changes the sound a little compared to the pre- bounce mutli-track output. I've wondered if a summing mixer might help.
The least invasive conversion I've heard so far is Dangerous Music's, but I haven't had time with some of the higher end converters. The Burl was sweet, but colored, so you have to love that color.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 15, 2021 11:35:52 GMT -6
I know it’s well intentioned but if I trusted the same people who say it’s not the converter and not the clock, not the mixing console, not the *insert expensive gear* but just one’s ears this very expensive bla clock I bought would not make the huge difference in clarity and depth it does. Again I ask those people: why would something cost thousands of dollars and not go on sale if it made no big difference in sound? Why don’t all mixers just use a focusrite scarlett and call it a day? This isn’t meant as an insult but following one’s ears and not the posts of some people who may or may not be knowledgeable made me reevaluate all “advice” given online by anons. Coming back to the topic: why would the “inferior” headphone output be the issue at hand here lmao??? As I said multiple times in this thread already: i compared all outputs and the master out sounds the best (obviously cause it has a hotter output due to the tranny) Mods can close this thread. I have my answer already as it’s the AD/DA that loses all the detail and dimension of the analogue mix. It fits my experience of the AD/DA with a hq clock being probably the most important aspect of truthful mixing (are you really hearing what’s there?) You're absolutely right! It's important to figure out who doesn't know their stuff and then take their posts with a grain of salt. I'll drink to that.
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Post by svart on Sept 15, 2021 14:45:20 GMT -6
*Asks loaded question*
*Gets many opinions contrary to loaded question*
*Defends mixer as infallible constant despite valid questions*
*Does no testing or verification of any questions or claims*
*Claims everyone else must be wrong then proclaims that their original hypothesis must be the correct one anyway*
Weird flex, but ok.
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 15:07:53 GMT -6
*Asks loaded question* *Gets many opinions contrary to loaded question* *Defends mixer as infallible constant despite valid questions* *Does no testing or verification of any questions or claims* *Claims everyone else must be wrong then proclaims that their original hypothesis must be the correct one anyway* Weird flex, but ok. Yeah, I deleted my post, remembering one of my mentor’s best aphorisms for success in the business: “Know when to care.”
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