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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 10, 2021 12:33:40 GMT -6
The argument though is again, classical folks are in general recording pieces of music that have been recorded hundreds if not thousands of times. Their audience is "smart" and they know the notes and everything in between and get analyzed and scrutinized to death. So it's a bit of a balancing act and why I don't always win the "this take is better because the energy is right" argument. ..and everyone knows that the likes of Bach, Mozart, and Chopin never made mistakes while performing ..and were undoubtedly able to cover them up by turning them into something equally and stunningly musical. Well, thats the difference between a live performance and a recording. Also why during a live performance recording there is always an approval process of some kind and the artist will say no to certain pieces or movements that they weren't happy with. Which we always honor. Everyone has their good days and bad days!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 11, 2021 8:00:24 GMT -6
It just all depends on the situation to me…and if I’m recording myself or someone else. When recording myself, I’ll usually just go phrase by phrase - or chunk like you’re talking about - until I get a take I’m really happy with. If it’s my song, I know what I’m looking for and know it when I hit it. Plus, I know I can always come back and fix something after tuning if I don’t like it. For other people - I’ll usually go several phrases at a time and get multiple takes. Some trouble phrases I might catch 6-10 times or whatever. That usually means I just want to get one that I know won’t have audible artifacts when I tune. I usually go until I get one I like, then move on. Usually, the last take before moving on is what I use anyway and the comping is there more for their peace of mind. I’m not going to sit and comp through 6 takes of a tune unless the pay justifies it. Plus, 90% of a person’s personal issues with a take are that “I’m pitchy.” Well, I can fix that. Anyway - another thing - I never comp with a singer in the room. You’ll be there all freaking day. Plus, you hired me to produce.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Sept 11, 2021 8:21:27 GMT -6
3 or four takes, comp... If there is anything left to fix, punch, and done!
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Post by mike on Sept 14, 2021 19:44:33 GMT -6
I usually sing the whole song doing multiple takes, and Comp those choosing best emotion clips over other things that can be fixed like tone, tuning or timing, ...and punch if needed beyond that. IME it seems the best vocal takes of the day are usually in the first 3-5 takes
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 14, 2021 20:26:03 GMT -6
The emotional content is different when you record the whole song. I find I can connect to the meaning and get deeper feelings expressed that way. How can you feel the story if you're doing line readings?
I do three takes, four at the most. My fifth take is never the one, so if I don't get it in four, I move on. From those takes I comp, but usually end up keeping the majority of one take that rang true and stealing a couple of words here and there if needed by comping.
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Post by theshea on Sept 16, 2021 6:07:55 GMT -6
I have found when working with various vocalists that it works much better if they sing the song completely and then we comp from the 4-5 takes. But, just as often, the singer really doesn't know the part so we end up doing verse by verse and comp the multiple takes. I can hear that it feels a little less "together" with the more granular approach to recording. many songs are telling a story. It's important that the flow through the song works. Nothing worse than finishing and finding the first chorus was much stronger (belting) than the last chorus. Doing full pass takes makes it more possible to keep the performance going in the right direction. man, i really hate it when singers don‘t „know their own songs!“ come on! it‘s YOUR song! show some comittment. i hate it when they come back one/two weeks later „oh, you know i have a totally different way of singing it now - groovy!“ aaargh! than of course there‘s the singer thats singing someone elses songs, different story. but also, do your homework! come recording when you KNOW your part! sorry for ranting :-) had to let it out.
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 16, 2021 9:21:12 GMT -6
I have found when working with various vocalists that it works much better if they sing the song completely and then we comp from the 4-5 takes. But, just as often, the singer really doesn't know the part so we end up doing verse by verse and comp the multiple takes. I can hear that it feels a little less "together" with the more granular approach to recording. many songs are telling a story. It's important that the flow through the song works. Nothing worse than finishing and finding the first chorus was much stronger (belting) than the last chorus. Doing full pass takes makes it more possible to keep the performance going in the right direction. man, i really hate it when singers don‘t „know their own songs!“ come on! it‘s YOUR song! show some comittment. i hate it when they come back one/two weeks later „oh, you know i have a totally different way of singing it now - groovy!“ aaargh! than of course there‘s the singer thats singing someone elses songs, different story. but also, do your homework! come recording when you KNOW your part! sorry for ranting :-) had to let it out. I told this one singer in the middle of recording his EP that he should stop and take the songs to as many open mics as he could for a couple of months and come back. He was not happy with that answer. In the end, I literally had to teach him his own song and record a scratch vocal for him to sing with while recording in order to get anything usable. Everyone wants to be an artist. So few are willing to put in the work.
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Post by M57 on Sept 16, 2021 9:55:07 GMT -6
Regarding the "Know your song" advice:
My days of playing out are long past. I write in the studio. Yes, I know my songs well before I start recording, but often after putting down rhythm section tracks, things change. Because I usually sing and play while writing/learning the song. My playing goes down differently when all of a sudden I don't have to sing. Often I'm able to play less, with the idea that space can always be filled. Regardless, and for whatever reason, my guitar or keyboard parts might end up voice-led differently ..or the comping or placement of fills suggests that my vocal phrasing needs to be adjusted - in the same way that live singers respond to what the musicians around them are doing. In almost every case all of these things result in improvements, and the recordings end up feeling much more organic.
My background vocal tracks are NEVER prepared. Because I don't play out or work with other musicians, how can they? I may have a rough idea of how they'll go down, but the good old fashioned trial and error approach is part of the plan.
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Post by theshea on Sept 16, 2021 10:07:36 GMT -6
Regarding the "Know your song" advice: My days of playing out are long past. I write in the studio. Yes, I know my songs well before I start recording, but often after putting down rhythm section tracks, things change. Because I usually sing and play while writing/learning the song. My playing goes down differently when all of a sudden I don't have to sing. Often I'm able to play less, with the idea that space can always be filled. Regardless, and for whatever reason, my guitar or keyboard parts might end up voice-led differently ..or the comping or placement of fills suggests that my phrasing needs to be adjusted - in the same way that live singers respond to what the musicians around them are doing. In almost every case all of these things result in improvements, and the recordings end up feeling much more organic. My background vocal tracks are NEVER prepared. Because I don't play out or work with other musicians, how can they? I may have a rough idea of how they'll go down, but the good old fashioned trial and error approach is part of the plan. this is perfectly fine if you are recording and doing everything yourself in your studio. and it‘s perfectly fine if you have a massive budget and have the studio booked for say a month, old school style. but i have a problem with people coming unrehearsed and unprepared to my studio and want to do it quick and cheap. and than again the week after because they know they sucked. and because they know the song or they weren‘t ready to record yet.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2021 16:57:30 GMT -6
I have found when working with various vocalists that it works much better if they sing the song completely and then we comp from the 4-5 takes. But, just as often, the singer really doesn't know the part so we end up doing verse by verse and comp the multiple takes. I can hear that it feels a little less "together" with the more granular approach to recording. many songs are telling a story. It's important that the flow through the song works. Nothing worse than finishing and finding the first chorus was much stronger (belting) than the last chorus. Doing full pass takes makes it more possible to keep the performance going in the right direction. man, i really hate it when singers don‘t „know their own songs!“ come on! it‘s YOUR song! show some comittment. i hate it when they come back one/two weeks later „oh, you know i have a totally different way of singing it now - groovy!“ aaargh! than of course there‘s the singer thats singing someone elses songs, different story. but also, do your homework! come recording when you KNOW your part! sorry for ranting :-) had to let it out. Well that's the thing, in my experience songs grow organically and change based upon the recording itself. Sometimes verb or certain types of compression will completely change my inflections, phrases or the song completely so I can capitalise. The mic's tonality and "ease of use" will also change the way I sing something, I'll approach a U89 differently to a toob mic for example (for many reasons). So for me at least I don't truly know a song until it's recorded. The sound of a final product hardly ever resembles what's in my head and sitting down with an acoustic is good for a theoretical basis but not much else. I mean if you don't know your own lyrics or even the base structure of a song then that's pretty poor, however there is a bit of learn by doing involved. Unfortunately I've not made a recording of myself in well over a decade and due to impatience the tracks that I did make sounded rushed, robotic or just boring due to the fact I followed the 4 take comp or verse by verse approach. I did wonder decades ago why it took pro bands six months to a year to release a 4 track or album but over the years I got my answer. By the time the final product arrives it probably should have been recorded in a demo format probably a hundred times over the span of months, at that point there isn't any doubt and everything should be effortless. It's amazing how different I sound after gaining a complete picture of every part of the song, the nuance, inflection, grit, ease and technical ability goes up several times over. It's just like when Brian May said Freddie sounded like a bleating sheep when trying to approach some tracks, I shy'd away from technically involving emotion packed songs because they were hard to sing in the studio (not live though weirdly enough). However given enough practice I will get the hang of it at some point..
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Post by chessparov on Nov 13, 2021 17:18:24 GMT -6
I know (like Vincent) in Opera they nickname the phase Freddie was in... Sounding like a "strangled cat". It's a real rite of passage, for a lot of Tenors. And Baritones, who can extend up there. AFAIK my max theoretical top note, is "only" around a B natural-with at/near perfect Classical technique (which obviously I don't have ) Freddie certainly had over a top C hiding up there, during this phase. Chris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2021 18:43:29 GMT -6
I know (like Vincent) in Opera they nickname the phase Freddie was in... Sounding like a "strangled cat". It's a real rite of passage, for a lot of Tenors. And Baritones, who can extend up there. AFAIK my max theoretical top note, is "only" around a B natural-with at/near perfect Classical technique (which obviously I don't have ) Freddie certainly had over a top C hiding up there, during this phase. Chris It varies dependant on situation for me, I started out as a lead guitarist and became a vocalist due to necessity so there's always been a lack of confidence in my performances. When I first started singing I was crap, under confident and inaccurate so I set out fixing said issues.. I succeeded and became very technically accurate vocalist with a large range however that didn't make me a good singer. I'd fixated on my flaws so much that the actual emotion and performance side seemed to be an afterthought.. Anyway over the years I improved, even won a few vocal talent competitions but in the studio that under confidence still wreaks havoc. I'm so aware of my voice that I refrain, choke up and put undue pressure on my chest / vocal cords. It's even worse because of how loud my voice is especially in the upper ranges, in a smaller venue I could forgo a mic completely and in a semi-detached house you would hear me clearly next door. Plus the style of music I chose really wasn't complimentary to my voice, I won those comps by singing pop songs but I wanted (for some reason at the time) to be a heavy rock / metal singer. It's like an RME pre-amp vs. a UA 610 and I'm the RME, clean, efficient but raw and colourful I certainly ain't.. My voice suits dance / trance / pop and all the genre's I was completely uninterested in. Only recently have I found a bit of grit with my voice but now I'm not all that interested in metal music so.. Yay.. It's been a journey, a sucky one at that.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 13, 2021 20:42:47 GMT -6
So now you must get the personalized license plate... "UARME". Only us fellow geeks, will know the true meaning. Chris P.S. Of course now we want clips!
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Post by donr on Nov 14, 2021 3:05:05 GMT -6
This post probably isn’t applicable for the commercial studio owner or engineer, but it’s my experience working as a self-recording artist.
When I sing an original song for publication and release, chances are I'm figuring out how to sing it as a finished product while it's being recorded, as opposed to having worked it out live or covering an existing song.
So the first few full takes go to me finding the way to sell the lyric and song to the listener, emphasizing vocal strengths and minimizing weaknesses, and integrating the vocal with the track. I can’t critically listen to me sing a new song until I hear it recorded. Often this makes me rethink my initial concept of how the vocal might go.
Historically, I'd kill myself on 4 (then,) 8trk TEAC demos to nail the essence of songs that'd be re-recorded with BOC with their muscle and pro production and studios, some becoming hits. Nowadays, I aim to make the demo the master, even as I think that's harder to get it right, mainly because if you're doing it yourself, you have no other ears for guideposts and soundboards on any of it, mostly the song itself and the recording and performances. We ain’t all Stevie Wonder, and I bet Stevie got some input, ‘cause he needed help getting all those overdubs to tape.
Once I'm confident I can put a vocal over on the song, I do several, maybe 4 or 5 complete takes, then I start punching into those takes to fix weak spots in each. Damn, DAWs are great for this, and I've worked with genius engineers who could punch in and out with canny awareness of the time between an erase head and record head on a tape machine.
Then I start the comp, and it's more about performance art than the quality bar at this point. I want the comp that gives me the most flattering performance version of myself. If I have to punch into that comp for fixing anything else, I do. I will do spot pitch correction as needed, often before the comp, if I dig the vocal otherwise. I love Digital Performer's pitch algorithm for spot correction, and I fix all obvious final problems before considering a mild sheen of Autotune, which I don't hate, it's the sound of popular music since it's invention, and I'll say it's not unmusical if used with discretion. Or not. I’m not dogmatic about either way.
It’s how I roll in 2021.
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Post by bossanova on Nov 14, 2021 11:18:22 GMT -6
This post probably isn’t applicable for the commercial studio owner or engineer, but it’s my experience working as a self-recording artist. When I sing an original song for publication and release, chances are I'm figuring out how to sing it as a finished product while it's being recorded, as opposed to having worked it out live or covering an existing song. So the first few full takes go to me finding the way to sell the lyric and song to the listener, emphasizing vocal strengths and minimizing weaknesses, and integrating the vocal with the track. I can’t critically listen to me sing a new song until I hear it recorded. Often this makes me rethink my initial concept of how the vocal might go. Historically, I'd kill myself on 4 (then,) 8trk TEAC demos to nail the essence of songs that'd be re-recorded with BOC with their muscle and pro production and studios, some becoming hits. Nowadays, I aim to make the demo the master, even as I think that's harder to get it right, mainly because if you're doing it yourself, you have no other ears for guideposts and soundboards on any of it, mostly the song itself and the recording and performances. We ain’t all Stevie Wonder, and I bet Stevie got some input, ‘cause he needed help getting all those overdubs to tape. Once I'm confident I can put a vocal over on the song, I do several, maybe 4 or 5 complete takes, then I start punching into those takes to fix weak spots in each. Damn, DAWs are great for this, and I've worked with genius engineers who could punch in and out with canny awareness of the time between an erase head and record head on a tape machine. Then I start the comp, and it's more about performance art than the quality bar at this point. I want the comp that gives me the most flattering performance version of myself. If I have to punch into that comp for fixing anything else, I do. I will do spot pitch correction as needed, often before the comp, if I dig the vocal otherwise. I love Digital Performer's pitch algorithm for spot correction, and I fix all obvious final problems before considering a mild sheen of Autotune, which I don't hate, it's the sound of popular music since it's invention, and I'll say it's not unmusical if used with discretion. Or not. I’m not dogmatic about either way. It’s how I roll in 2021. I do something similar: 4-5 complete takes, comped for the best sections of each, then punch-ins for individual lines without an acceptable take. I got good at doing it with a Tascam 4-track once upon a time, but I also vastly prefer the DAW method
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 11:29:45 GMT -6
So now you must get the personalized license plate... "UARME". Only us fellow geeks, will know the true meaning. Chris P.S. Of course now we want clips! Y'know what, I'm going to let the extremely sub par college demo's and general musings live in the decades ago black hole of time. I don't sound like that anymore, I'm not a fan of the songs, genre, mixes, arrangements or much about them.. Great to learn from but that's about it. It's about time I did a proper self demo. Not long now, finally moved location, renovated the house, got my equipment fixed and just about to start attaching the room treatment.
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Post by yotonic on Nov 14, 2021 14:43:14 GMT -6
Four takes, comp... If there is anything left to fix, punch, and done
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