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Post by indiehouse on Aug 27, 2021 11:30:20 GMT -6
So, I picked up a few mics. A couple of vintage U87's that I scored at a local auction (I threw in low bids not expecting to win, but was pleasantly surprised when I did) and a Stam SA87+ with Tim Campbell capsule. One of the vintage U87's is a Stephan Paul mod. They are both low serial numbers, so I suspect one is from the late sixties and the other early seventies. I also threw my MK67 in for good measure. This one is about as close as you can get to a U67 (Neumann transformer, Seimens output capacitor) All mics run into an RTZ 9762 -> Lynx Aurora (n). I wish I could sing, but trust me, you don't want that. So, I just briefly talked into them, holding the mic about 6 inches out. Better than nothing. When using them, they sounded way different to each other. On playback, they sound way closer than I thought. Weird. U87U87 Stephan Paul ModStam SA87+ w/ Tim Campbell capsuleU67 w/ stock capsule and Mullard tubeU67 w/ Klaus Heyne modded capsule and Mullard tubeU67 w/ Klaus Heyne modded capsule and Tfunk EF86 SILVERU67 w/ Klaus Heyne modded capsule and Tfunk EF86 GREYEDIT 8.28.2021 I had a couple of things listed incorrectly on the U67. The initial U67 sound example had a stock (unmodded) Neumann capsule and a mid-1950s Mullard with an extra long glass envelope. I've added a few updated sound files, with the proper attributes listed. I have updated this post. |
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Post by recordingengineer on Aug 27, 2021 16:49:36 GMT -6
So awesome!
By the way, this is the first I’ve ever heard of Klaus working on a Neumann capsule for a non-Neumann mic. How’d this come about?
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Post by ragan on Aug 27, 2021 17:02:09 GMT -6
So awesome! By the way, this is the first I’ve ever heard of Klaus working on a Neumann capsule for a non-Neumann mic. How’d this come about? The MK67 is Max Kircher's U67 circuit that you drop into a U87ai or TLM67, so it's still a Neumann capsule. The drop in guts are just a straight ticket U67 circuit, though many people find Max's BV12 to sound a little too dark and they swap in a Neumann or Moby BV12. But either way, it's a Neumann capsule/headbasket/body and, electrically, it's a pretty much a U67. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 27, 2021 17:17:55 GMT -6
Thanks for doing this indiehouse.
I'll have to try listening on my monitors later. On the computer, they're all a little cloudy. So far I'd say the original 87 has a pinch more transparency, but I wish we could hear this same comparison with a dynamic vocal.
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Post by sean on Aug 27, 2021 17:35:23 GMT -6
I wish I was closer to that auction! Had my eyes on quiet a few things but there was no way I could get up there on pick up day. Interested to hear the differences
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Post by recordingengineer on Aug 27, 2021 17:39:41 GMT -6
So awesome! By the way, this is the first I’ve ever heard of Klaus working on a Neumann capsule for a non-Neumann mic. How’d this come about? The MK67 is Max Kircher's U67 circuit that you drop into a U87ai or TLM67, so it's still a Neumann capsule. The drop in guts are just a straight ticket U67 circuit, though many people find Max's BV12 to sound a little too dark and they swap in a Neumann or Moby BV12. But either way, it's a Neumann capsule/headbasket/body and, electrically, it's a pretty much a U67. Ah… Makes much more sense… Forgot MK designed for straight up drop in for a Neumann body. |
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 27, 2021 17:53:44 GMT -6
Thanks for doing this indiehouse. I'll have to try listening on my monitors later. On the computer, they're all a little cloudy. So far I'd say the original 87 has a pinch more transparency, but I wish we could hear this same comparison with a dynamic vocal. Yeah, I wish I could sing. Sorry about that. |
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Post by yotonic on Aug 27, 2021 18:20:58 GMT -6
There are things I like about all of them. But the original 87 has the nicest lower register focus, and less sibilance than the others. The 67 is pretty cool but sounds a hair pinched. For vocals that U87 will be right on, especially in a mix, it will sit in it nicely instead of sounding layered over the top.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 27, 2021 18:26:02 GMT -6
Any thoughts on the Stam or SP mod?
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Post by mike on Aug 27, 2021 18:52:51 GMT -6
Thanks for doing this, much appreciated. Wish those auctions would happen near me!
My subjective 2 cents and that's all it is, agrees with Yotonic about something to like about all of them but on 87's I preferred the Original 87 over the SP mod,...and I also liked the Stam with Tim's Capsule. Sounds like you made out well at your auction!
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 27, 2021 19:21:32 GMT -6
Okay...I'm in "AB listening mode" tonight, so this is appropriate.
They don't sound very similar to me.
U87 - Sounds like a U87. I've been testing preamps with one all afternoon and evening, so it's a familiar sound right now. Beautiful midrange and highs.
U87 SP Mod - Sounds like someone put a smiley face EQ on it. The low end is boosted probably more than it should be. It's missing the Neumann-esque midrange.
SA87+ - Another smiley face EQ. Missing that Neumann midrange, and very sibilant to the point of kinda hurting.
67 - This has nice midrange resoultion, but it seems deficient in the lows and highs. Frowny face EQ and simply a different flavor. I bet it would take EQ well.
Congrats on the purchase.
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 28, 2021 1:43:25 GMT -6
Well I am very surprised by this. Anyone who has heard or used my capsule in the Stam SA67 knows that it is not sibilant and certainly has a Neumanesque midrange. I don't build this mic so I can't say what is going on here.
The u87 should have a de-emphasis circuit in it, perhaps they have chosen some different values.
I'd also add that i think this 87 sounds good.
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Post by 2busdriver on Aug 28, 2021 1:56:36 GMT -6
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 28, 2021 5:13:55 GMT -6
Well I am very surprised by this. Anyone who has heard or used my capsule in the Stam SA67 knows that it is not sibilant and certainly has a Neumanesque midrange. I don't build this mic so I can't say what is going on here.
The u87 should have a de-emphasis circuit in it, perhaps they have chosen some different values.
If you can I'd ask you to open the headbasket and verify that it is my capsule. It wouldn't be the first mic sold claiming to have my capsule that ended up having another capsule altogether.
I'd also add that i think this 87 sounds good.
Tim, are you saying that your capsule in this particular Stam 87 doesn't sound as you expected? Here are some photo's of the capsule in this mic.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 28, 2021 5:16:31 GMT -6
Really nice. The Stock U87 sounds great. The SP mod opens it up and extends it, but it’s still really smooth. You should try an Amperex EF86 in your MK U67 at some point. It’s what I settled on for mine and I much prefer it to the Telefunken. It’s richer sounding. Stam sounds ok, but with the other two you probably won’t need it.
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Post by OtisGreying on Aug 28, 2021 5:23:49 GMT -6
The stam sounds pretty scooped in the 1-2k range? Am I hearing that right? The Neumann 87 no mod has that Neumann sounding presence there. Which maybe is what makes it sound a bit more compressed and focused. If I was picking between some guy reading me a book or not I'd choose the Stam 87 over the Neumann 87, it sounds clearer. But I think that 1-2k bite thats very musical that Neumanns have I think is great for mixes. Not sure how to tally this one
Thought the 67 sounded great as well
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 28, 2021 5:29:09 GMT -6
Well I am very surprised by this. Anyone who has heard or used my capsule in the Stam SA67 knows that it is not sibilant and certainly has a Neumanesque midrange. I don't build this mic so I can't say what is going on here.
The u87 should have a de-emphasis circuit in it, perhaps they have chosen some different values.
If you can I'd ask you to open the headbasket and verify that it is my capsule. It wouldn't be the first mic sold claiming to have my capsule that ended up having another capsule altogether.
I'd also add that i think this 87 sounds good.
Tim, are you saying that your capsule in this particular Stam 87 doesn't sound as you expected? Here are some photo's of the capsule in this mic
Well this is my capsule and yes this doesn't sound as I expect it to at all but I can't attribute that to the capsule.
That capsule is based on 2 NOS k67 capsules I acquired and I can promise is no brighter that a typical Neumann from that period. You can hear this from some of the SA 67 samples posted in other threads. There is typically a high cut filter in a U87 to eliminate self noise. Perhaps the difference lies there.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 28, 2021 5:37:52 GMT -6
The stam sounds pretty scooped in the 1-2k range? Am I hearing that right? The Neumann 87 no mod has that Neumann sounding presence there. Which maybe is what makes it sound a bit more compressed and focused. If I was picking between some guy reading me a book or not I'd choose the Stam 87 over the Neumann 87, it sounds clearer. But I think that 1-2k bite thats very musical that Neumanns have I think is great for mixes. Not sure how to tally this one Thought the 67 sounded great as well Ha! I can assure you I won’t be recording guys reading books. All music here. |
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 28, 2021 5:47:15 GMT -6
Okay...I'm in "AB listening mode" tonight, so this is appropriate. They don't sound very similar to me. U87 - Sounds like a U87. I've been testing preamps with one all afternoon and evening, so it's a familiar sound right now. Beautiful midrange and highs. U87 SP Mod - Sounds like someone put a smiley face EQ on it. The low end is boosted probably more than it should be. It's missing the Neumann-esque midrange. SA87+ - Another smiley face EQ. Missing that Neumann midrange, and very sibilant to the point of kinda hurting. 67 - This has nice midrange resoultion, but it seems deficient in the lows and highs. Frowny face EQ and simply a different flavor. I bet it would take EQ well. Congrats on the purchase. This is exactly what I heard when recording these samples! It’s funny that I didn’t hear the differences as exaggerated as I thought when listening back. But when hearing them live, the differences were plain as day, and my thoughts pretty much aligned with yours. I actually heard the stock U87 as having the least low end. Thought it sounded pretty thin, honky, compressed and a little phasey. But I’m playback, there’s plenty of low end. The SP mod sounded extended in the bottom, a little clear up top, which makes it sound scooped in comparison to the stock 87. Almost pre eq’d. I also noticed it was more prone to plosives. The Stam 87+ sounded the most similar to the SP mod 87, but with an extended top. It’s a brighter, more modern sounding mic. Has that eq’d sound to it. The MK67 sounded different. Way less low end than the 87’s. I wonder why? |
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Post by stam on Aug 28, 2021 6:35:06 GMT -6
I sent you a message to check some values on the circuit of that 87 plus
It shouldn't sound bright at all. I'm happy to have a look at it
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 28, 2021 7:12:46 GMT -6
Ok I owe an apology here. I had assumed you got the Stam in the same auction as the 87's and that is why I asked to see the capsule. I didn't mean to imply anything else.
I have edited my earlier post about this.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 28, 2021 7:22:23 GMT -6
Ok I owe an apology here. I had assumed you got the Stam in the same auction as the 87's and that is why I asked to see the capsule. I didn't mean to imply anything else.
I have edited my earlier post about this.
Sorry for the confusion. I bought the SA87+ direct from Stam. |
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 28, 2021 7:34:41 GMT -6
I sent you a message to check some values on the circuit of that 87 plus It shouldn't sound bright at all. I'm happy to have a look at it Replied! Thanks! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2021 8:33:38 GMT -6
I can't speak for Stam's 87 because I haven't tried one, but the SA67 I have with Tim's capsule sounds like a vintage U67. It has the Neumann honk you'd expect.
I sometimes think people have become accustomed to brighter mic sounds . I've noticed many people prefer the U87Ai to the vintage U87 when listening blind in shootouts.
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Post by seawell on Aug 28, 2021 9:38:29 GMT -6
Love the way the original 87 sounds! The SP mod also brings back fond memories of the one I used to own.
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