|
Post by tkaitkai on Aug 31, 2021 11:04:38 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for chiming in with your stories here....I think the big issue for me here is once that amp sold and I got paid, I dumped the money into other expenses. The fact that reverb wants me to refund him, possibly repair the amp (which they will supposedly pay for) and then re-list, could take months. So if I'm on the hook for this refund, not only is it like I didn't even sell the amp, but now I'm in the hole for 2375 for the next several months. And who's to say I can even get that amount of money for the amp at that point. I'm an honest seller, so if it needs repairs, I'm going to write that it has had work done in my listing. Also, even if it's working perfect when I get it back, I'm sure it's taken a little wear and tear on throughout this ordeal. Again, I can't sell it for the same price. It's almost like I hope the thing is declared totaled by some local tech just so I can get my money back. Maybe after that, I send it over to ATC again to get back in shape. Who knows. Should be here today, so I'll report back when I plug it in. This might be bad advice, but if it were me... I would cancel my card, call the bank and block all transactions from Reverb.com as a merchant, declare the amp broken, and send it back. There is NO way I would tolerate someone fucking me over for nearly $2500. That is absolute nonsense. And especially because this idiot shared incriminating evidence elsewhere online! Who's to say he didn't tamper with the internals or treat the amp like a basketball while he had it? Fuck that guy. I certainly wouldn't be footing the repair bill or waiting months to get my money back. People like that make my blood boil.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 11:05:25 GMT -6
Since it all comes down to REVERBS policies and since REVERB acts as a broker, no your screwed. Remember in these market places the buyer technically buys from the market place not you, the payment is to the market place not the seller. You could try to go through REVERBs user agreement and try and find some language that is illegal under the Interstate Commerace Code, but these things are written by lawyers. For them the long term gain of not losing in court means they will fight you till your broke with big powerful lawyers. No good lawyer is going to take this kind of case on contingency fee so you would be paying by the billable hour and their lawyers know this. Not saying you couldn’t win just your win will cost you. Understood, Eric. Maybe one could at least video the gear working and post the YT link in the listing to proactively demonstrate it was working at the time of listing, as well as sending pics of boxing to the buyer. Just looking to have the "proof" in place before any buyer tries pulling the wool over Reverb's eyes. You could do that, but in the end Reverb and the like are just going to go by the written policy. I know this sounds stupid but in the end they have done the math and come to the conclusion that pissing off sellers is cheaper. They seam to think there is more money in Sweetwater, FCS, etc selling new gear through them at MAP.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 11:13:39 GMT -6
One way to screw, err avoided a situation like this is to use a prepaid debit card that is not linked to a current bank account. For many of these accounts I use an AMEX Bluebird that the bank account I used when opening it was later closed. I load and unload it via ATM’s and trips to Walmart. Sure go ahead try pulling $2K out of it you will find $2.00 and no active bank account!
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 31, 2021 11:23:36 GMT -6
You can state that items cannot be returned and put in whatever description you want.
I say take lots of pictures and inside as well if you have tube gear.
So, you can confirm any difference if returned.
If you know you are being scammed , I say take your money and run and cancel your reverb account: it really doesn’t have the seller’s best interests at heart and they are taking your money for the “service”, it is providing.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 12:38:13 GMT -6
You can state that items cannot be returned and put in whatever description you want. I say take lots of pictures and inside as well if you have tube gear. So, you can confirm any difference if returned. If you know you are being scammed , I say take your money and run and cancel your reverb account: it really doesn’t have the seller’s best interests at heart and they are taking your money for the “service”, it is providing. 1. You can post whatever terms you want, Reverbs terms that as a seller you agreed to trump your terms. 2. Closing the account now only means in the future they can’t get him, they have his Credit Card / Bank info and can charge him, because he agreed to the terms. How do we change all this? Simple pass a law that if we agreed to certain terms, and they change terms. 1. Must be given 30 notice before new terms go into effect. 2. If subscription or contracted fees are involved the consumer has the option to end without penalty and any prepaid fees are returned prorated. It’s a very simple principle if you can change the terms from what I have agreed to I can get out because I didn’t agree to these new terms when I signed up. It’s like in the pre COVID days my family never understood why my wife and I would take a cruise on Norwegian Cruise lines, deep in their terms they had hidden up until sailing they could cancel your reservation and all they owed you was the cruise. Nobody else had these terms, we were considered nuts till part of the family all showed up at the port of Miami to find they had been bumped by a Corporate group all NCL did was give them credit for a free cruise, not their transportation to Miami or hotels. It’s not about what you think the terms are or should be it’s about what they really are .
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Aug 31, 2021 12:43:52 GMT -6
Yeah, I agree with ericn here....It's Reverb's court, so they make the rules. Any shop policy you create would probably be outweighed by their own policy. Whatever. It's not the end of the world for me here, but this safe shipping nonsense goes up to 10 grand on their site! That means if I sell a vintage mic or something to pay my mortgage or whatever, and some idiot buys it to "test", then goes and says it's broken, you're on the hook. Wish there was a better way, but I kind of...KIND OF...see where they are at. If they just paid everyone out, it would be really easy to sell your gear, have someone claim it's busted, and you both get paid out, plus you get working gear back. But still....when people take advantage of how it is now, it only stings the seller unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by thecolourfulway on Aug 31, 2021 12:53:04 GMT -6
FWIW I am very eager to see how this case plays out, please keep us in the loop, I’m really hoping it turns out ok for you. I’m definitely just about done with reverb, the outcome of this situation could be the final nail
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 12:55:44 GMT -6
Yeah, I agree with ericn here....It's Reverb's court, so they make the rules. Any shop policy you create would probably be outweighed by their own policy. Whatever. It's not the end of the world for me here, but this safe shipping nonsense goes up to 10 grand on their site! That means if I sell a vintage mic or something to pay my mortgage or whatever, and some idiot buys it to "test", then goes and says it's broken, you're on the hook. Wish there was a better way, but I kind of...KIND OF...see where they are at. If they just paid everyone out, it would be really easy to sell your gear, have someone claim it's busted, and you both get paid out, plus you get working gear back. But still....when people take advantage of how it is now, it only stings the seller unfortunately. More and more I think most of these market places don’t want the individual seller, they want to be an extension of the dealer. For the dealer it’s simple math is it cheaper to sell through reverb or pay a guy. Now here is the whole in this plan, many dealer agreements state “no sales to resellers” remember you buy from Reverb not the dealer, could the manufacturers get the courts to consider that a resale? Or let’s say Harmon or Behringer changes it’s dealer agreement to say all sales must be direct to the end user. Suddenly used sales and the individual seller becomes important.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 31, 2021 12:59:49 GMT -6
You can state that items cannot be returned and put in whatever description you want. I say take lots of pictures and inside as well if you have tube gear. So, you can confirm any difference if returned. If you know you are being scammed , I say take your money and run and cancel your reverb account: it really doesn’t have the seller’s best interests at heart and they are taking your money for the “service”, it is providing. Stating that it's can't be returned is not an actual thing unless the item is listed as non-working / broken. If it's listed in fair condition and arrives non-working, the item can be returned regardless of what the description says.
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Aug 31, 2021 13:13:44 GMT -6
More and more I think most of these market places don’t want the individual seller, they want to be an extension of the dealer. For the dealer it’s simple math is it cheaper to sell through reverb or pay a guy. Now here is the whole in this plan, many dealer agreements state “no sales to resellers” remember you buy from Reverb not the dealer, could the manufacturers get the courts to consider that a resale? Or let’s say Harmon or Behringer changes it’s dealer agreement to say all sales must be direct to the end user. Suddenly used sales and the individual seller becomes important. One of my local music stores does a lot of business on Reverb... Maybe 700+ listings with everything from used $50 pedals to a $15k Buscarino archtop. They had a guy who, aside from running the store & regular sales stuff... a major part of his job was managing all the Reverb listings. People asking for more photos, dealing with offers & managing disputes fell on his shoulders. I say "had" because today is literally his last day at the store. Got plucked by Sweetwater who made an offer he couldn't refuse. Anyway... I think things were better & easier in the old wild west days of the interknot. Bought & sold a shitload of gear including some expensive stuff like large format analog desks and very, very rarely had a problem. Used to be that someone would put up a listing somewhere, you'd exchange a couple 3 emails and maybe get a phone number. Then talk to someone and get a feel for if things were on the level. Mail a check and once received/cleared ship the gear. All these rules & regulations are supposed to make things easier? But instead it only seems to have gotten more complicated and especially when things go south. I've compared notes with my friend at the music store a few times and man, there are some crazy stories. Stating "as is no returns" doesn't mean squat. Might make you feel good but ultimately doesn't mean anything.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 13:32:16 GMT -6
More and more I think most of these market places don’t want the individual seller, they want to be an extension of the dealer. For the dealer it’s simple math is it cheaper to sell through reverb or pay a guy. Now here is the whole in this plan, many dealer agreements state “no sales to resellers” remember you buy from Reverb not the dealer, could the manufacturers get the courts to consider that a resale? Or let’s say Harmon or Behringer changes it’s dealer agreement to say all sales must be direct to the end user. Suddenly used sales and the individual seller becomes important. One of my local music stores does a lot of business on Reverb... Maybe 700+ listings with everything from used $50 pedals to a $15k Buscarino archtop. They had a guy who, aside from running the store & regular sales stuff... a major part of his job was managing all the Reverb listings. People asking for more photos, dealing with offers & managing disputes fell on his shoulders. I say "had" because today is literally his last day at the store. Got plucked by Sweetwater who made an offer he couldn't refuse. Anyway... I think things were better & easier in the old wild west days of the interknot. Bought & sold a shitload of gear including some expensive stuff like large format analog desks and very, very rarely had a problem. Used to be that someone would put up a listing somewhere, you'd exchange a couple 3 emails and maybe get a phone number. Then talk to someone and get a feel for if things were on the level. Mail a check and once received/cleared ship the gear. All these rules & regulations are supposed to make things easier? But instead it only seems to have gotten more complicated and especially when things go south. I've compared notes with my friend at the music store a few times and man, there are some crazy stories. Stating "as is no returns" doesn't mean squat. Might make you feel good but ultimately doesn't mean anything. Yeah everybody has a guy doing Reverb, EBay and Amazon, but in most cases they are cheaper because they don’t get commission or incentives. Honestly it’s a tough gig because about 40% of what you deal with is the old fashioned low ballers. I can see SW targeting someone who is doing well for someone else. I just hope he gets to do it remotely because Fort Wayne is not what one would call a fun place.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 31, 2021 14:12:21 GMT -6
My no return comment comes from my own experience with Reverb and that I had extensive photos of gear quality.
When 1 of 6 recent buyer’s contacted me months later claiming the unit was knowingly defective, I contacted CS directly explained the facts and that the buyer had purchased knowing there were no returns stated.
CS sided with me.
So, sometimes the seller doesn’t get screwed .
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 14:57:30 GMT -6
My no return comment comes from my own experience with Reverb and that I had extensive photos of gear quality. When 1 of 6 recent buyer’s contacted me months later claiming the unit was knowingly defective, I contacted CS directly explained the facts and that the buyer had purchased knowing there were no returns stated. CS sided with me. So, sometimes the seller doesn’t get screwed . I think they have changed policy or at least enforcement since then. That is part of the problem with policy evolution, you get people who had excellent results before the new policy to come out and state how well it worked for them, forgetting they simply disposed of a couple of policy update emails ( I’ll admit I didn’t read the last 2 till this thread).
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 31, 2021 15:35:37 GMT -6
My last experience was only a few months ago so I think current but this new shipping reference I don’t think I knew about ?
It seems Reverb is trying to control everything but not treat the seller fairly.
Gearspace classified is still great and then you can choose everything: much better.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Aug 31, 2021 17:16:37 GMT -6
More and more I think most of these market places don’t want the individual seller, they want to be an extension of the dealer. For the dealer it’s simple math is it cheaper to sell through reverb or pay a guy. Now here is the whole in this plan, many dealer agreements state “no sales to resellers” remember you buy from Reverb not the dealer, could the manufacturers get the courts to consider that a resale? Or let’s say Harmon or Behringer changes it’s dealer agreement to say all sales must be direct to the end user. Suddenly used sales and the individual seller becomes important. One of my local music stores does a lot of business on Reverb... Maybe 700+ listings with everything from used $50 pedals to a $15k Buscarino archtop. They had a guy who, aside from running the store & regular sales stuff... a major part of his job was managing all the Reverb listings. People asking for more photos, dealing with offers & managing disputes fell on his shoulders. I say "had" because today is literally his last day at the store. Got plucked by Sweetwater who made an offer he couldn't refuse. Anyway... I think things were better & easier in the old wild west days of the interknot. Bought & sold a shitload of gear including some expensive stuff like large format analog desks and very, very rarely had a problem. Used to be that someone would put up a listing somewhere, you'd exchange a couple 3 emails and maybe get a phone number. Then talk to someone and get a feel for if things were on the level. Mail a check and once received/cleared ship the gear. All these rules & regulations are supposed to make things easier? But instead it only seems to have gotten more complicated and especially when things go south. I've compared notes with my friend at the music store a few times and man, there are some crazy stories. Stating "as is no returns" doesn't mean squat. Might make you feel good but ultimately doesn't mean anything. OK you will like this one, was just talking to one of my old clients who is well known for abusing return policies, I just raised his prices, anyway turns out he is buying from dealers who won’t deal with him direct via Reverb and returning gear left and right.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Sept 1, 2021 15:47:35 GMT -6
Amp just came back. It was upside down in the box and the cover screws are loose on one side, but it works totally fine. This effing guy. Guess I’m gonna be honest with Reverb about this and see where it goes. One more time... this effing guy. “Return Scammer Rob”.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 1, 2021 16:10:25 GMT -6
Amp just came back. It was upside down in the box and the cover screws are loose on one side, but it works totally fine. This effing guy. Guess I’m gonna be honest with Reverb about this and see where it goes. One more time... this effing guy. “Return Scammer Rob”. Post his reverb name so we know to avoid him.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Sept 1, 2021 16:22:46 GMT -6
Amp just came back. It was upside down in the box and the cover screws are loose on one side, but it works totally fine. This effing guy. Guess I’m gonna be honest with Reverb about this and see where it goes. One more time... this effing guy. “Return Scammer Rob”. Post his reverb name so we know to avoid him. Seriously.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Sept 1, 2021 16:26:31 GMT -6
Robert Simms Rob’s Audiophile Shop Pittsburgh PA
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Sept 1, 2021 16:29:08 GMT -6
Robert Simms Rob’s Audiophile Shop Pittsburgh PA I wonder if he had a client who was interested, then wasn’t.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Sept 1, 2021 16:48:09 GMT -6
Robert Simms Rob’s Audiophile Shop Pittsburgh PA I wonder if he had a client who was interested, then wasn’t. He has no clients. He's just some "Audiophile" who wanted to try the amp and liked his Adcom better. Since you can't just return working gear, he lied. Did you see the room he was in his videos? Gross. Dirty, messy, gross. Guy is what another RGO member called in him in a message to me, a sewer rat.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Sept 1, 2021 16:50:44 GMT -6
I also really considered having a tech declare this thing totaled when I got it so I could get my money back too, but then what would that make me? I'm an honest guy, and we are hard to come by sometimes in this industry. A few of you have hired me for work and I never want people to question my integrity. I did report back to Reverb that it is in perfect working order, and asked what the next steps are.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Sept 1, 2021 16:54:13 GMT -6
My first experience with Reverb was my last and that was as a buyer. - NEVER AGAIN!!
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Sept 1, 2021 16:54:20 GMT -6
Yuck, I need some Pepto Bismol after reading this thread. My sympathies.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Sept 1, 2021 19:38:14 GMT -6
I also really considered having a tech declare this thing totaled when I got it so I could get my money back too, but then what would that make me? I'm an honest guy, and we are hard to come by sometimes in this industry. A few of you have hired me for work and I never want people to question my integrity. I did report back to Reverb that it is in perfect working order, and asked what the next steps are. Keep us up to date, man.
|
|