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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 23, 2021 12:37:38 GMT -6
The ULTIMATE test. I'm gonna guess the verdict is to send back the clock!
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2021 13:14:27 GMT -6
I couldn't tell where the cuts happened in the comp.
Anyway, I took the original files and dropped them into reaper and lined them up by sample. I noticed that each set of files was offset by a few samples from the other sets, but the files from the same group (avid, etc) were pretty much lined up. I couldn't zoom in closer than a certain amount so I couldn't tell with any crazy detail how close they are.
So you were right, the files don't null, but I found that they "washed" in and out of nulling, almost vibrato like. IF this is clocking related then this means that one of the clocks is "walking" slightly. This a very slow change in frequency over time. Wheras jitter is a very fast deviation in frequency, walking is very slow, and usually caused by changes in temperature which cause the crystals/oscillators to push or pull in frequency.
However, I did hear a lot more of the effects (non-lin reverb, chorus, etc?) than the instruments which makes me wonder if it's a case of randomization in the generation of the effects so that no two run-throughs would be the same exact effect. Perhaps the better test would be with a single instrument with no processing at all to rule out any plugs and their associated side effects.
It seemed to be about the same amount of residual signal even between the two clips with Mutec as the driving device, which I wouldn't believe should be that different.
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2021 15:03:23 GMT -6
Ok, took another quick look because I was interested in seeing if I could tell if the samples were walking around by lining up a specific sample at the beginning of the track and then seeing if various samples throughout the track were before or after their corresponding samples in the other track. They were exactly the same points in time. The samples are not walking around. I did notice that the waveforms in certain sections of the song were much more dynamic, sometimes the peaks and valleys were slightly different in time. The samples were identical in time though, so it's my opinion that the clock is not making the difference in sound here. It almost has to be some kind of effect/plugin with a non-deterministic processing function that can vary between runs. Look at the bottom wave form of each track here and you can see around the cursor that the bumps are vastly different:
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Post by seawell on Aug 23, 2021 19:15:01 GMT -6
Ok, took another quick look because I was interested in seeing if I could tell if the samples were walking around by lining up a specific sample at the beginning of the track and then seeing if various samples throughout the track were before or after their corresponding samples in the other track. They were exactly the same points in time. The samples are not walking around. I did notice that the waveforms in certain sections of the song were much more dynamic, sometimes the peaks and valleys were slightly different in time. The samples were identical in time though, so it's my opinion that the clock is not making the difference in sound here. It almost has to be some kind of effect/plugin with a non-deterministic processing function that can vary between runs. Look at the bottom wave form of each track here and you can see around the cursor that the bumps are vastly different: View AttachmentVery interesting! I am using a good bit of hardware compressors as well as external FX(Lexicon PCM 70/80/91 and Yamaha SPX 90). Also summing through a Dangerous 2-Bus which feeds a Red 3 on the 2 buss so definitely not a plug in heavy mix to where things should in theory be exactly the same each time.
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Post by seawell on Aug 23, 2021 19:52:56 GMT -6
I may be crazy but I'm hearing about 12 clip changes throughout that compilation. Am I in the ballpark?
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Post by christopher on Aug 23, 2021 20:00:57 GMT -6
Ok, took another quick look because I was interested in seeing if I could tell if the samples were walking around by lining up a specific sample at the beginning of the track and then seeing if various samples throughout the track were before or after their corresponding samples in the other track. They were exactly the same points in time. The samples are not walking around. I did notice that the waveforms in certain sections of the song were much more dynamic, sometimes the peaks and valleys were slightly different in time. The samples were identical in time though, so it's my opinion that the clock is not making the difference in sound here.Ā It almost has to be some kind of effect/plugin with a non-deterministic processing function that can vary between runs. Look at the bottom wave form of each track here and you can see around the cursor that the bumps are vastly different: View AttachmentIām gonna make a blind guess the bottom is the mutec clock. Roflmao (Before my blind AB test Iād say it was the aurora haha) Either way, reminds me how my studer used to look when I got it back.. all over the place in the time domain and smoother
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Post by seawell on Aug 23, 2021 20:24:44 GMT -6
Setting all clocks to internal gives this really strange sound(don't listen loud on headphones): www.dropbox.com/s/yr34pqtal1wdpnl/All%20Internal%20Clocks.wav?dl=0I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that they are all interconnected with digilink cables and to the Avid HDX card. Still, I could choose one as the master and daisy chain to the others without a master clock if this blind listening test proves me to be crazy about the Mutec haha.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 23, 2021 20:40:21 GMT -6
I may be crazy but I'm hearing about 12 clip changes throughout that compilation. Am I in the ballpark? I PM'd you and sent a link to my session so you can see for yourself.
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2021 6:43:12 GMT -6
Ok, took another quick look because I was interested in seeing if I could tell if the samples were walking around by lining up a specific sample at the beginning of the track and then seeing if various samples throughout the track were before or after their corresponding samples in the other track. They were exactly the same points in time. The samples are not walking around. I did notice that the waveforms in certain sections of the song were much more dynamic, sometimes the peaks and valleys were slightly different in time. The samples were identical in time though, so it's my opinion that the clock is not making the difference in sound here. It almost has to be some kind of effect/plugin with a non-deterministic processing function that can vary between runs. Look at the bottom wave form of each track here and you can see around the cursor that the bumps are vastly different: View AttachmentVery interesting! I am using a good bit of hardware compressors as well as external FX(Lexicon PCM 70/80/91 and Yamaha SPX 90). Also summing through a Dangerous 2-Bus which feeds a Red 3 on the 2 buss so definitely not a plug in heavy mix to where things should in theory be exactly the same each time. Ah that explains some of it. The PCM and SPX have pretty terrible converters in them which would explain why we hear a lot of effects when nulling. Since their converters are probably really jittery, they wouldn't null as closely as a pure track. More fuel for the idea nulling can only work if it's a pure instrument with no software or hardware based time-altering effects.
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2021 6:48:59 GMT -6
Setting all clocks to internal gives this really strange sound(don't listen loud on headphones): www.dropbox.com/s/yr34pqtal1wdpnl/All%20Internal%20Clocks.wav?dl=0I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that they are all interconnected with digilink cables and to the Avid HDX card. Still, I could choose one as the master and daisy chain to the others without a master clock if this blind listening test proves me to be crazy about the Mutec haha. Yeah that's strange, but it doesn't sound like clocking being out of sync. I don't know much about HDX stuff, but I've used multiple different interfaces on recording rigs without an issue before. Sometimes it takes a bit to figure out the settings though. Anyway, use what works for you. My whole point about this stuff was that a master clock is NEVER required for studio work that doesn't include the requirement to sync to timecode (like video work).
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Post by audionaut on Aug 24, 2021 14:48:48 GMT -6
I'm guessing that the internal clock on the Lynx is no slouch to begin with... so the difference might not be so profound to switch to an external clock source. I've had great experiences with Cranesong products in the past(as you mentioned the Quantum). Granted this was back in the day of the Digidesign 192's (Circa 2008), but I specifically remember a hip hop mixing session I did on a large SSL 9000J in a large room with Augspergers and just switching from internal to external clock(Cranesong Hedd) was absolutely mind blowing with regard to improved separation, clarity and a seemingly larger stereo field. To be clear, I was still listening to the mix bus on the board (not monitoring through the Cranesong converters or engaging the "tube" processing) and the difference was night and day to everyone in the room, including the artist and members of his entourage. Nowadays, I would hope that internal clocks have gotten better for D/A interfaces in general, but that mix taught me a valuable lesson about the importance of a good clock source when playing back digital audio. I see so many engineers putting tens of thousands of dollars into their summing hardware and buss processing chains to massage every last db of audio that is coming downstream, but their source is a stock Apollo or equivalent A/D D/A interface jammed full of mic preamps, routing options and a plugin processing engine, all clocking to a $7 chip. In the right instances, an external clock will be the most dramatic change you can to improve the quality of your DAW.
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Post by seawell on Aug 24, 2021 20:29:58 GMT -6
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Post by christopher on Aug 24, 2021 21:57:05 GMT -6
Well, I chose the mutec as my fav
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Post by audionaut on Aug 25, 2021 6:30:17 GMT -6
Surprised... I liked them in this order from best to "worst": B, E, A, C, D. So I guess Aurora Internal Daisy Chained was my favorite. Sometimes it's difficult to pick between the best representation of the song and which one has the most appealing high frequency definition and sizzle. It's like comparing foods and always picking the saltiest option because it made others taste bland. I can certainly hear the appeal in C (Mutec Internal Clock) as well, It had a more dry, "analog" vibe to it in a way that somehow reminds me of Overstayer gear. I'd be tempted to boost the high shelf a bit more if I was mixing through it. Just my $.02.
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ji43
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by ji43 on Sept 27, 2022 18:42:14 GMT -6
I haven't explored it yet, but I am using an Aurora(n) as my interface and 16 i/o for hardware inserts, and tracking sources with more than 2 mics...and a HEDD Quantum (connected via AES) for mixbus, as well as tracking overdubs (up to 2 mics). I have not explored clocking the Aurora(n) off the HEDD Quantum yet, but what I'm gathering from this thread is that there might not be much of a benefit to switching from the internal Aurora clock to the HEDD as master clock. Correct?
I monitor off an Avocet IIA, which does it's own internal clocking and does not have a WC input. Is the HEDD Quantum running off it's internal clock, even though the Aurora(n) interface is set to internal? And what might be gained by running a BNC cable and making the HEDD Quantum the master clock for the Aurora(n) in this case?
Thanks!
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 30, 2022 14:22:26 GMT -6
I actually really liked both AVID samples. The AVID daisy chained was a little more midrangey than when daisy chained though the Mutec. I'll admit, I'm using a Carbon and the studio I often work in has an Omni and a couple of 16 I/Os. So it may just be that its a sound I'm used to.
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