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Post by matt on Jul 31, 2013 11:49:21 GMT -6
For some reason - maybe common sense is kicking in, darnit - I am choking on laying out big bucks ($2300 for a Burl Vancouver) for summing when this level of cash will buy a console. So, I am most definitely on the fence over this. I am going to OTB mixing, it's just a matter of how. Is quality summing cleaner, less noisey than a low/mid-range console? Or can the typical console's flexibility make up for the typical summing box's limited configuration?
Requirements are: 8 stems max, probably less on most mixes. Some mono inputs would be nice, and/or panning. I am fixated on the Burl due to it's reputation, but I can be persuaded otherwise. It may be overkill for my application. Dangerous 2Bus LT is another, a more "stripped" possibility. On the console side (talking new gear), Soundcraft LX7ii -24 looks interesting.
I am looking to move on a purchase very soon. The absolute top of my budget is $2500. But, while it's never been a personality trait in the past, I want to spend less and get the job done, if at all possible.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 31, 2013 12:07:07 GMT -6
I have a Midas Venicef-32. Cool box with pres, eq, faders, and conversion. Seemed like a better deal to me than a summing box.
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Post by svart on Jul 31, 2013 12:08:07 GMT -6
As with a lot of things in life, you pay more for quality.. Up to a point. Once you get above that point, you are paying for vanity. The question I have back to you is, are you going to use anything else a console offers? I read your requirements and I don't see anything about EQ, inserts, sends, returns, flexible bussing, etc. From reading your description, it sounds like you want a summing system. Honestly, I'd build a passive summing unit with panning and use a couple preamps as make up gain.
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Post by matt on Jul 31, 2013 12:22:39 GMT -6
I read your requirements and I don't see anything about EQ, inserts, sends, returns, flexible bussing I should have been more descriptive. If I went with a console, I would make use of EQ and inserts. I've always focused on the summing box option. But lately I hear great sounding material mixed through a console. So, thinking about that now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 12:33:14 GMT -6
IF you are thinking the analog summing options there are lots of options I can speak to.
Dangerous, Rascal Audio, Pheonix, Folcrom, SSL, AMS Neve.
The Rascal Audio is the ticket. Joel Cameron is a great guy and I LOVED that thing but I sold it as I couldn't justify it when VCC was fitting the bill. Second on the list would be the Pheonix Nicerizer, my only complaint is that it isn't a set/forget box like the Tonebuss. If you can get the chance to try one take it. If I had to do it again with an analog workflow I'd go back to that with ST versions of the LA2A, 1176 and the LA3A acting as bus compressors that signals get pushed into. I used to have it my Mix comp set that I'd drive the mix into it and a combo of my eyes and ears would insure recall was never an issue.
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Post by cenafria on Aug 1, 2013 0:58:16 GMT -6
For me the great advantages of a console are in ergonomics. Using it as a summing box only (as in not moving the faders while mixing) seems like not utilizing it's potential. My experience working on a console is that it is a more visceral, unconscious experience when compared to mixing itb. And faster. I encourage you to explore the analog console option. You will have to get your hands dirty in the tech side with maintenance and possibly mods, but to me, definitely worth it.
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Post by noah shain on Aug 1, 2013 2:48:49 GMT -6
I use 8 passive summing busses. I send groups of stuff to different busses (like you might on a console), make up amps, comps and EQ and then I sum all those busses on 1 final passive bus that becomes the 2 buss. It's all on a patchbay with some half normaling and Redco mult boxes so I end up having access to mults and parallel processing in the analog domain. It's really fun and sounds f___ng amazing...when I get it right.
Passive summing gets a bad rap and honestly, just hitting one buss didn't do much for me but this system is really kick a$$ and if you chose the make up gain amps well you can really get it to saturate and bend in a cool way.
I been trying to talk someone else into it for months. I'm pretty sure most people just think I'm crazy but I swear it rocks.
It's the ultimate hybrid rig! Do it!
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 1, 2013 7:43:17 GMT -6
All summing is passive. It's just some have built in make up in the same box. So the guys who knock passive summing are mis guided. I use a Folcrom while my neve is getting rebuilt and modded. I also have a highly modded soundcraft delta by Jim Williams. If I didn't have the neve I would probably get a bigger one of those and be very happy or a D&R.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 1, 2013 8:34:45 GMT -6
Mixing hands on, out of the box, just works better for me. I would much rather have a board than a summing box. Just my opinion.
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Post by gouge on Aug 1, 2013 8:36:01 GMT -6
me too
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Post by matt on Aug 1, 2013 8:45:46 GMT -6
Mixing hands on, out of the box, just works better for me. I would much rather have a board than a summing box. Just my opinion. This is my internal debate. I like the idea of having maximum flexibility that a console gives. But a good summing solution is so automatic, and there is elegance in simplicity. Hmm. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 1, 2013 8:50:46 GMT -6
I've been dreaming of the forthcoming capi console myself, my avatar pic is my 32x8x2 sound craft delta(still very under construction), it's a 24ch and a 16ch unit mashed together, with a couple of st bussing switches added to each input ch, to give me 8buss(pcbs already had the paths burned in, just needs switches and buttons added, easy peasy), Jim Williams has been doing his thing to the modules, and that turns this thing into a beast that throws its specs right up to and beyond ssl levels(of course not the routing capabilities and onboard dyn, but 92db crosstalk makes for wiiiiiiiiiidddddde sound!, and the eq is killer!), i'm using a delta cps 650 PSU to handle the extra power requirements of the larger config/modified strips. With 11 channels modded so far, (I picked up both the base units w/1 psu, for under $500), i have spent a total of somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,500.00. Since the channel strips are modular, i can pull one out in 30 seconds and bring it to jim for supercharging when ever i can afford it. The even better news is, it sounds good stock, unbelievable modded, and i ended up with a 10 channel side cart/live gig mixer, and an extra cps 450 PSU  If you're the adventurous type, I can't recommend this route enough. It gives you a great sounding base to start, and can be brought to an amazing level for little $, with zero downtime(unless your like me, and saw 2 in half, to make 1 lol!) BTW, danderloo turned me on to this and some other pieces, when ever i see his posts my ears pin back, i have not been anything but happy with his recommendations thus far! T |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 1, 2013 8:59:38 GMT -6
I've often thought about this too. I'll probably stick with something that only takes up rack space, my apartment's already filled. Regardless of my eventual acquisition of some kind of summing box, ( it won't be for a while though), one day I'm getting a mixer. I think better with them.
The Toft looks really nice, anyone used one?
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 1, 2013 9:00:12 GMT -6
To me the only reason to get a summing box over a mid level / high end console (price varies widely, but there are many high end option in lower dollars solutions) is how much space you have in your room. If you have space for a 24 channel Delta or a D&R that can be highly modded and has good routing then you will get a lot more out of it then you will a 2400 dollar summing box. If you don't have room for it, and you would be cramping up your work space (which is a huge work flow killer), then I would spring for a summing solution. If you have good sounding pres (CAPI, AML or some vintage Neve's) then I would get a passive unit like the Folcrom. I know of a few DIY options that are basically the same and much cheaper if you want to go that route. I think you could be into a DIY summing box for 100 bucks. Your pres will add the color. Not much to risk at that price. My guess is you will still want the flexibility of a console at some point. www.diyrecordingequipment.com/store/kits/pb8t-passive-summing-kit/www.diyrecordingequipment.com/store/kits/endless-summer-analog-summing-kit/or get a folcrom pre built. www.rollmusic.com/folcrom.phpMy 2 cents |
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 1, 2013 9:04:20 GMT -6
I've often thought about this too. I'll probably stick with something that only takes up rack space, my apartment's already filled. Regardless of my eventual acquisition of some kind of summing box, ( it won't be for a while though), one day I'm getting a mixer. I think better with them. The Toft looks really nice, anyone used one? The Toft is awful. Sorry if anyone owns one. I was forced to use one twice. The first time I was excited to think that I had heard good things about it. But they are noisy, bad crosstalk and really hard to mod. So not much reason to invest in them. They look cool but that is it. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 1, 2013 9:31:31 GMT -6
Thanks Dan, it's good to hear something other than the "EQ's made by the guy who made API's, so it must be good", or some other brand, I forget.
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Post by matt on Aug 1, 2013 9:41:36 GMT -6
To me the only reason to get a summing box over a mid level / high end console (price varies widely, but there are many high end option in lower dollars solutions) is how much space you have in your room. If you have space for a 24 channel Delta or a D&R that can be highly modded and has good routing then you will get a lot more out of it then you will a 2400 dollar summing box. If you don't have room for it, and you would be cramping up your work space (which is a huge work flow killer), then I would spring for a summing solution. If you have good sounding pres (CAPI, AML or some vintage Neve's) then I would get a passive unit like the Folcrom. I know of a few DIY options that are basically the same and much cheaper if you want to go that route. I think you could be into a DIY summing box for 100 bucks. Your pres will add the color. Not much to risk at that price. My guess is you will still want the flexibility of a console at some point. I have the space, thankfully. I would make room for the proper console. It is starting to make sense to me to get a Folcrom as an interim solution though. I need summing now, but I don't want to rush into a board and end up regretting the purchase. |
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Post by matt on Aug 1, 2013 9:50:11 GMT -6
If you have good sounding pres (CAPI, AML or some vintage Neve's) It is starting to make sense to me to get a Folcrom as an interim solution though. I could use my Slate Fox for gain makeup. However, this option would offer a good excuse to start a lunchbox and populate it with a pair of VP28s. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 1, 2013 10:30:38 GMT -6
It is starting to make sense to me to get a Folcrom as an interim solution though. I could use my Slate Fox for gain makeup. However, this option would offer a good excuse to start a lunchbox and populate it with a pair of VP28s. This is true! If you go to Potluck con talk to Justin at Roll Music about the Folcrom. Tell him I sent ya. He's a good guy! |
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Post by matt on Aug 1, 2013 10:45:21 GMT -6
I could use my Slate Fox for gain makeup. However, this option would offer a good excuse to start a lunchbox and populate it with a pair of VP28s. This is true! If you go to Potluck con talk to Justin at Roll Music about the Folcrom. Tell him I sent ya. He's a good guy! I am registered and booked at the hotel, and find that I am more excited than should be natural! Visiting Roll's booth is high on my list of things to-do. And stopping by Neve, UA, Pultec, Royer, SSL, API, Dangerous, TFunk, Cathedral Pipes, Tube-Tech, Phoenix Audio, etc, etc. I may pass out at some point. I hope they serve Stella - I may need copious amounts of it just to deal with the situation. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 1, 2013 10:56:35 GMT -6
You should just go for a 1608 and call it a day.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 1, 2013 13:11:06 GMT -6
Check out Jeff's VC528 Missing Links...They are basically the back end of an API console (two transformers) after the Pre and EQ...They have faders and filters...You can drive the input and back off with the fader or the other way around. I'm using it for tracking and the 2 bus.
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Post by 51xAudio on Aug 1, 2013 14:18:19 GMT -6
Buy a Neumann V475 summing amp and DIY!
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 1, 2013 17:38:45 GMT -6
I am registered and booked at the hotel, and find that I am more excited than should be natural! Visiting Roll's booth is high on my list of things to-do. And stopping by Neve, UA, Pultec, Royer, SSL, API, Dangerous, TFunk, Cathedral Pipes, Tube-Tech, Phoenix Audio, etc, etc. I may pass out at some point. I hope they serve Stella - I may need copious amounts of it just to deal with the situation. lucky   |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 23:47:19 GMT -6
+1 for a DIY summing solution.
There is hardly something more simple to DIY than mocking up a summing box. Dead easy concepts, dead cheap.
A summing box with, say a Neumann V475 or similar summing module is just racking up one module and a few resistors...and this is already as good as a summing box can get by any means.
Save as much cash up as you can for a better console, you won't regret it.
A simple summing box solution is a small weekend project, even if you are new to DIY...
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