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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2021 10:23:08 GMT -6
Another paralysis thread I guess. But I’ve been thinking…and seriously inspired by ragan’s record (check it out in the finished works area - just killer) Seriously, the biggest hindrance for me in creating is convenience. I’m so easily thrown off by getting this guitar tone or that. Or which synth sound or I want a B3. Ok let me wait for it to load up. Shit. Gotta pull my buffers up. Wait - too much latency. Let me freeze these tracks and then pull the B3 up. Etc. Anyway - I’ve been threatening to do something like buying that Yamaha YC…having it set up and ready to go. Choosing 3 amps on my Axe and only use those three. Have a dedicated acoustic area and mix already set up. Choose one basic kit…IDK. Just prepare everything so nothing can distract me. That make any sense? Sometimes even choosing which DAW I work in can be something that paralyses me. Luna lacks features but I like the workflow and tracking process. Et al. It makes me think ( wiz, ragan you can probably speak to this) I should have a decent Electronic kit set up and ready to go. Even if I just use the brain to quickly get the stuff down. I guess to sum it up - when I do stuff for myself, I have a hard time separating the tracking from the mixing. I’m almost wanting to get to an “analog” place where I have nothing but analog equipment and paralysis doesn’t take over. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 17, 2021 10:32:16 GMT -6
Makes sense to me as our creative thinking requires a different mindset.
The more screwing around we do with technology while trying to be creative : the more we lose the moment.
I’d say go ahead and set up your room exactly as you describe and see.
You could buy a decent Roland used V kit, 17 series would be good , but get the one with the larger drum head’s and real hi hat stand and try it ?
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jes
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Post by jes on Jul 17, 2021 12:07:00 GMT -6
Mise en place is the only way things get done. You are absolutely right that making technical choices ahead of time will help a lot.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2021 12:26:37 GMT -6
Just re-wired my patchbay...what a major PITA.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 17, 2021 13:10:23 GMT -6
Just re-wired my patchbay...what a major PITA. I’m going through a similar thing myself right now. The ‘gear’ is def getting in the way for me. I’m elbow deep in rewiring things, not enough rack space, patch this, patch that, oh wait, now it’s not working, gotta troubleshoot. An hour later and I’ve lost the spark. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 17, 2021 17:09:00 GMT -6
When I sold most of my ob, I simplified everything: Keep mikes patched into pres, outs go to patchbay and comps if I want or direct to Aurora N ins.
Really, I just select mikes and go.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 17, 2021 17:13:05 GMT -6
I do this and it makes it easier to write. I rigged a floor switch at my grand piano that turns on almost everything. And I have an iPad there running Logic remote. I just work around the room. Every instrument has its own station with mic setups and dedicated preamps and compressors. Acoustic guitar setup, electric guitars, Pbass, Rhodes, clavinet, piano, drums etc.
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Post by Quint on Jul 17, 2021 17:26:23 GMT -6
I do this and it makes it easier to write. I rigged a floor switch at my grand piano that turns on almost everything. And I have an iPad there running Logic remote. I just work around the room. Every instrument has its own station with mic setups and dedicated preamps and compressors. Acoustic guitar setup, electric guitars, Pbass, Rhodes, clavinet, piano, drums etc. Yep, same here. Totally the way to go if you can afford having multiples of things like mics, comps, etc. for this sort of thing. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 17, 2021 17:46:13 GMT -6
I am not a song writer by any means, despite a few obscure credits for some suggestions over the years, but I see the dilemma. The same technology that can get in the way often can be the inspiration.
I have noticed a bunch of guys who are sort of taking a 2 lane approach to it these days, they have the studio but will also have a simple iPad based rig with a very basic interface, mic will vary at the piano or in a corner with a guitar and amp. This is the sketchpad. They can bring a different guitar, keyboard or mic into the rig if they want. Hell a week ago a friend was gushing about this track he put together on an I pad and iPhone, the iPad was running some synth ap and the iPhone record it all on GB. He was laughing because in the next room sits an HD rig.
A couple of local guys have fallen in love with my RADAR 24/V simply because of the simplicity, I have turned them on to some now almost vintage AKAI and Fostex 4 & 8 track hard disk recorders with a very basic console for the simplicity and they love them for how trying to find the tone is now separate from just getting the idea of a tune down. All but one still have their real DAW.
im the first to admit that many of my most often played tracks are at their heart and soul studio creations, but damn if most of the modern versions of this genre suck. John you and I have discussed before that the difference between a great song and a good song is that you can strip a great song down to the basics and it’s still a great song. Maybe you need to live in both worlds, craft the basics in a simple world then produce it in the more polished rig.
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Post by lpedrum on Jul 17, 2021 18:44:11 GMT -6
To me it depends on the goal. If you’re looking to make “stay out of the way of the song” rhythm section demos, paring down and making things simpler could be a great idea. But if you want to create distinctive arrangements for finished recordings its hard to do that quickly and without experimentation. Regardless, please don’t go the route of electronic drums. A simple acoustic kit of kick, snare, hat and crash-ride is infinitely better sounding and easier to mix than trigger pads.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 17, 2021 19:20:09 GMT -6
To me it depends on the goal. If you’re looking to make “stay out of the way of the song” rhythm section demos, paring down and making things simpler could be a great idea. But if you want to create distinctive arrangements for finished recordings its hard to do that quickly and without experimentation. Regardless, please don’t go the route of electronic drums. A simple acoustic kit of kick, snare, hat and crash-ride is infinitely better sounding and easier to mix than trigger pads. What’s better, an e-kit triggering the latest SD3 expansion kit, or a shitty acoustic kit recorded in a shitty sounding room? |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 17, 2021 19:50:37 GMT -6
To me it depends on the goal. If you’re looking to make “stay out of the way of the song” rhythm section demos, paring down and making things simpler could be a great idea. But if you want to create distinctive arrangements for finished recordings its hard to do that quickly and without experimentation. Regardless, please don’t go the route of electronic drums. A simple acoustic kit of kick, snare, hat and crash-ride is infinitely better sounding and easier to mix than trigger pads. What’s better, an e-kit triggering the latest SD3 expansion kit, or a shitty acoustic kit recorded in a shitty sounding room? Reminds me of the church who bought a Steinway and put it in a round concrete and glass room. Yeah they perfected how to make a world class instrument sound like a $99 Casiotone. |
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Post by wiz on Jul 17, 2021 20:12:49 GMT -6
I want reply to this and will when not on my phone
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Post by jmoose on Jul 17, 2021 22:09:23 GMT -6
I've often said that if I were only recording my own music I'd have way less gear on hand. Mics guitars drums, outboard gear, all cut in at least half. Might even launch the P bass since I prefer the jazz. Possibly an extreme move..?
Over the last several years I got back into playing after focusing almost solely on the production side of things. In both cases it was purely accidental... or possibly a simple lack of direction & focus?
Either way... I tend to subscribe to the Lenois school of thought & oblique strategies...
If the resources are available... the core infrastructure in place... every possible instrument gets a station. Miked up and ready to go. Drums. Wall of guitar amps. Piano? B3? Vocals?!
If someone has an idea we should be able to walk up that instrument, adjust the level if needed and roll. Wham O. Done.
The technology shouldn't impede or worse, take over the process. When that happens you've lost it. Might as well take the dog for a walk.
Honestly? Most song ideas & writing happens with a phone device or maybe a stereo pair of mics in the room. Really simple. And kind of terrible & unreleaseable on purpose. I never want to get too attached to a sketch.
There were times with my last band, trying to write & self produce an album that I'd have traded my entire kingdom for a 4 track. In a fucking heartbeat.
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Post by popmann on Jul 17, 2021 22:53:26 GMT -6
I do that well....except for string samples. I don't know if it's a "me thing" or the nature of the beast, but I've never been able to use just like one string library for a project.
Otherwise, I'm fairly brutal about it. It's less about limiting choices as it IS..."this is MY sound..."
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Post by drbill on Jul 18, 2021 9:57:35 GMT -6
Streamlining your production setup is worth every dime and every minute you put into it. I completely rewired a 576 point TT/Elco bay when I realized that the bay and re-patching everything was slowing me down and stifling creativity. It took a couple months. And a lot of $$$. But it was worth every ounce of effort. Having all my outboard on 112+ I/o has been worth every penny - and the pennies add up big with long Mogami multipair wire runs. Getting things "right" and "smooth" and available with minimal effort is key. Everybody's path will be different, but I suspect the goals are very similar.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2021 11:55:02 GMT -6
To me it depends on the goal. If you’re looking to make “stay out of the way of the song” rhythm section demos, paring down and making things simpler could be a great idea. But if you want to create distinctive arrangements for finished recordings its hard to do that quickly and without experimentation. Regardless, please don’t go the route of electronic drums. A simple acoustic kit of kick, snare, hat and crash-ride is infinitely better sounding and easier to mix than trigger pads. What’s better, an e-kit triggering the latest SD3 expansion kit, or a shitty acoustic kit recorded in a shitty sounding room? I agree with that. For me, miking a drum kit would be the ultimate rabbit hole that would stuff creativity. AND another thing I was thinking of - sometimes when I can’t find the sound I’m looking for, it shuts me down…guess that’s the whole point of the thread - stick to a few pre selected sounds to limit the doodling. |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 18, 2021 13:06:46 GMT -6
To me it depends on the goal. If you’re looking to make “stay out of the way of the song” rhythm section demos, paring down and making things simpler could be a great idea. But if you want to create distinctive arrangements for finished recordings its hard to do that quickly and without experimentation. Regardless, please don’t go the route of electronic drums. A simple acoustic kit of kick, snare, hat and crash-ride is infinitely better sounding and easier to mix than trigger pads. I think this post is the crux of the biscuit. For a writer, especially working alone and playing everything themself, setting up a really simple easy to access and GO it perfect. I love the Daniel Lanois thing of stations set up and ready. A RADAR would speed that up compared to a DAW, but a template that was really well designed could be fine for that. Get all the ideas down quick and sleazy. When its time for PRODUCTION, you can take your time and weed through sounds and such, because the MUSICAL idea is already known. You can still allow for 'calling audibles' in the production but they would be fewer, and hopefully not take too much time. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 18, 2021 13:44:51 GMT -6
What’s better, an e-kit triggering the latest SD3 expansion kit, or a shitty acoustic kit recorded in a shitty sounding room? Why does it have to be a shitty kit in a shitty room? Why the extremes? Why can't it be a great kit in an Ok room? Tchad Blake stuffs drums into tiny dead iso booths and gets some killer sounds... I have nothing against drum samples but as a player E kits totally bum me out. Feel is completely different & there's no dynamics. Or at least greatly reduced. I'd much rather swing for the fences and come up short with a real kit then go the paint by numbers route with rubber pads and samples. I get that its a means to an end for some people and for some genres it can be fine... but to me it always feels safe and lame, like a beer commercial. Not that there's anything wrong with beer commercials either but its not what I do. YMMV. |
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Post by lpedrum on Jul 18, 2021 13:50:02 GMT -6
What’s better, an e-kit triggering the latest SD3 expansion kit, or a shitty acoustic kit recorded in a shitty sounding room? I agree with that. For me, miking a drum kit would be the ultimate rabbit hole that would stuff creativity. AND another thing I was thinking of - sometimes when I can’t find the sound I’m looking for, it shuts me down…guess that’s the whole point of the thread - stick to a few pre selected sounds to limit the doodling. I agree with the philosophy John I just don’t think sacrificing real drums is needed or in the long run a satisfying choice. If you can’t leave a small kit set up and miked then yeah, end of discussion. But following the line of what others are saying about setting up stations, a small kit doesn’t have to be intimidating nor all that expensive. Run a dedicated drum snake with mics that don’t get touched. Start with kick snare, and cymbals and build the “station” until you’re inspired and jot down the pre settings. It will take a few experiments to get drum sounds you love but it’s very doable. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 18, 2021 14:29:14 GMT -6
I am no where to the point that you guys are. But, having kinda started over from scratch at recording myself I have saved myself from getting too welded to any one approach other than making sure I can get ideas down quickly. I keep my main acoustic, electric, and scratch vocal mics plugged in and ready to go. I do play to a drum loop, click, or sample track but then send the scratch tracks out for real drums ( drumsound is the man btw) as soon as we have a rough idea of the song. Then, I rebuild them playing to Tony’s drums. What I am learning is that less is more for the music I play and write. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 18, 2021 15:43:13 GMT -6
I agree with the philosophy John I just don’t think sacrificing real drums is needed or in the long run a satisfying choice. If you can’t leave a small kit set up and miked then yeah, end of discussion. But following the line of what others are saying about setting up stations, a small kit doesn’t have to be intimidating nor all that expensive. Run a dedicated drum snake with mics that don’t get touched. Start with kick snare, and cymbals and build the “station” until you’re inspired and jot down the pre settings. It will take a few experiments to get drum sounds you love but it’s very doable. Yeah if there's a solid reason you can't have a house kit, like its too loud or something I get it. Space is a non-factor because most E kits occupy just as much or more real estate then a compact acoustic kit. Otherwise I'd imagine that for someone who wants to get away from option anxiety then acoustic drums win over the rubber pads? With the rubber kit I could sit there for hours and try 100 different snare drums. Acoustic kit? I've got one. And if I want something different I can swap the drum for another. Or I can add some muffling, bring the tension up or down... and that's about it. I feel the same way about guitar amp modeling. I know things have gotten better but every time I've plugged into a Kemper or whatever I can't help but feel like its a modern version of an ADA Mp1... where it has 128 presets that make every sound except one I actually dig. And then I'll plug into a Matchless or Boogie or whatever and go oh... yeah... that's what I missing! |
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Post by notneeson on Jul 18, 2021 15:47:23 GMT -6
I have been having a particularly fertile writing period with a very limited setup.
One vocal mic, tele into basically 3 presets (quickly tweaked to taste), SD3 and Hansa, handful of analog synths emulations. P bass direct. I have three compressor plugins that I use, three EQs, and a handful of modulation/time based stuff. One good reverb. Everything tracks through my pair of quad eights.
Never been more productive in my life. Somehow being creative at home is better for me.
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Post by lpedrum on Jul 18, 2021 16:34:09 GMT -6
I agree with the philosophy John I just don’t think sacrificing real drums is needed or in the long run a satisfying choice. If you can’t leave a small kit set up and miked then yeah, end of discussion. But following the line of what others are saying about setting up stations, a small kit doesn’t have to be intimidating nor all that expensive. Run a dedicated drum snake with mics that don’t get touched. Start with kick snare, and cymbals and build the “station” until you’re inspired and jot down the pre settings. It will take a few experiments to get drum sounds you love but it’s very doable. Yeah if there's a solid reason you can't have a house kit, like its too loud or something I get it. Space is a non-factor because most E kits occupy just as much or more real estate then a compact acoustic kit. Otherwise I'd imagine that for someone who wants to get away from option anxiety then acoustic drums win over the rubber pads? With the rubber kit I could sit there for hours and try 100 different snare drums. Acoustic kit? I've got one. And if I want something different I can swap the drum for another. Or I can add some muffling, bring the tension up or down... and that's about it. I feel the same way about guitar amp modeling. I know things have gotten better but every time I've plugged into a Kemper or whatever I can't help but feel like its a modern version of an ADA Mp1... where it has 128 presets that make every sound except one I actually dig. And then I'll plug into a Matchless or Boogie or whatever and go oh... yeah... that's what I missing! Plus it's easier to mix real instruments, period. I'm not a purist and I love blending in samples if I want to make the kick more aggressive etc. But it's ironic that on RGO we'll chat for hours about the micro differences of a pre or compressor and then what, turn around and only use our cherished gear to record vocals and acoustic guitar? |
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Post by notneeson on Jul 18, 2021 17:46:31 GMT -6
Yeah if there's a solid reason you can't have a house kit, like its too loud or something I get it. Space is a non-factor because most E kits occupy just as much or more real estate then a compact acoustic kit. Otherwise I'd imagine that for someone who wants to get away from option anxiety then acoustic drums win over the rubber pads? With the rubber kit I could sit there for hours and try 100 different snare drums. Acoustic kit? I've got one. And if I want something different I can swap the drum for another. Or I can add some muffling, bring the tension up or down... and that's about it. I feel the same way about guitar amp modeling. I know things have gotten better but every time I've plugged into a Kemper or whatever I can't help but feel like its a modern version of an ADA Mp1... where it has 128 presets that make every sound except one I actually dig. And then I'll plug into a Matchless or Boogie or whatever and go oh... yeah... that's what I missing! Plus it's easier to mix real instruments, period. I'm not a purist and I love blending in samples if I want to make the kick more aggressive etc. But it's ironic that on RGO we'll chat for hours about the micro differences of a pre or compressor and then what, turn around and only use our cherished gear to record vocals and acoustic guitar? I’m tracking at Panoramic House today, we are using like 5% of the mic locker and only API console pres (nearly). Gear is awesome, except when it detracts from actually focusing on music. There are like, three Fairchild clones here, not using any of them. The U47 is still in the safe. I used to try and maximize during tracking but it really is better (for me) to keep it simple. |
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