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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 8, 2021 18:30:32 GMT -6
Yet another thread about smoothing out the top end, but this time, let's discuss ideas/techniques/gear that can be used while recording, NOT plugins or post-processing.
For years, I've struggled with a subtle layer of brittle-sounding HF dirt/grit in my recordings. It's led me down all sorts of rabbit holes, and while I've gotten it down to a manageable level, I'm trying to finally get it sorted out for good.
Things that have helped:
- Using a great mic + front end (duh)
- Dialing in my gain staging (i.e. not hitting the mic pre, compressor, or A/D too hard)
- Avoiding hard surfaces while recording
- NOS tube for my mic
Things I'm curious to try:
- Different converters/clock (thinking about ditching my Aurora/Apollo setup)
- High end power conditioner/UPS
- Hospital grade receptacles
- Ferrite beads for various cables
I know some of those sound like wacky audiophile nonsense, but having addressed most of the common culprits, I'm kind of willing to try anything at this point. So with that said, let's get your take — what's worked for you?
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 8, 2021 18:37:48 GMT -6
Room treatment, room treatment, and room treatment. I favor diffusion. That’s like A-No. 1
Even close mics pick up all kinds of zingy trash.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 8, 2021 18:46:36 GMT -6
Room treatment, room treatment, and room treatment. I favor diffusion. That’s like A-No. 1 Even close mics pick up all kinds of zingy trash. That's a really interesting idea. How would you use diffusion for vocals? Any particular kind of diffusors you recommend? I have a bunch of ASC tube traps that have an absorptive side and a diffusive side — I tried using the diffusors for vocals, but it made the problem even worse. However, that was with an M149, which I've since sold for an Upton 251. Maybe I'll give that a try next. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 8, 2021 19:27:46 GMT -6
Analog filters, cuting the garage before it hits the converter is priceless.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 8, 2021 19:31:08 GMT -6
Just play a Marshall 100 watt for a few weeks at full tilt and you won't be bothered with pesky high end any more for the rest of your life, hehe.
Serious answer, it's something I decided to tune out after a while. There's always going to be a "little bit" of this stuff, so I try not to worry about it.
One practical tool to try, is a de-esser across your mix bus! Give it a serious attempt.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jul 8, 2021 19:35:51 GMT -6
Gotta find the source of the "zingy." Is it in the room? Is it in the instrument/voice? Is it in the signal? Divide and conquer.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jul 8, 2021 19:40:15 GMT -6
Oh, yes...
And be mindful how frequencies from various sources interact with each other and create sonic artifacts. It can be helpful to make decisions when tracking about which things are gonna be bright and which things are gonna be pushed further away.
You know how not everything can be warm and fat at the same time without low frequencies building up and fighting. The same is true for high frequencies. You'll get that "itchy" intermodulation way up high when things are fighting.
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Post by drsax on Jul 8, 2021 19:44:26 GMT -6
Had this problem when I had Antelope converters. Don’t have this problem any more with my UA Apollo MKII converters. Yes, Room and mics make a big difference, but if that’s not the issue, I’d look at your converters. Transparency is cool, but sometimes the more “transparent” converters are actually hyped in the high frequencies. 3kHz and the air frequencies are the areas where this buildup has been a real problem for me in the past with certain converters.
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Post by robschnapf on Jul 8, 2021 20:23:08 GMT -6
Transformers can help that
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 8, 2021 20:24:16 GMT -6
Analog filters, cuting the garage before it hits the converter is priceless. I would love to give this a try. With the Upton, I'm finding that, for the first time, I can actually get away with EQing on the way in. I'd love to try a LPF pre-compressor and then brighten it up after the fact. Wish I still had my Great River 32EQ, would have been perfect. Just play a Marshall 100 watt for a few weeks at full tilt and you won't be bothered with pesky high end any more for the rest of your life, hehe. Serious answer, it's something I decided to tune out after a while. There's always going to be a "little bit" of this stuff, so I try not to worry about it. One practical tool to try, is a de-esser across your mix bus! Give it a serious attempt. I'm definitely cool with some crunchy HF distortion here and there! The one area where I just can't get past it is vocals. Probably because I've thrown way too much money at my recording chain, and also because I suffer from Lead Singer Syndrome.  Good call on de-essing the mix. I always forget to try that and should do it more often. Had this problem when I had Antelope converters. Don’t have this problem any more with my UA Apollo MKII converters. Yes, Room and mics make a big difference, but if that’s not the issue, I’d look at your converters. Transparency is cool, but sometimes the more “transparent” converters are actually hyped in the high frequencies. 3kHz and the air frequencies are the areas where this buildup has been a real problem for me in the past with certain converters. This is where my head's at currently. I've tried so many different mics, preamps, rooms, outboard, etc., and still have the same problem (albeit much less now than before). I've also used the same exact gear (including the same type of room treatment!) in pro studios and never had the issue there. I'm very tempted to sell my Aurora and get something like an AD16x or a Lavry AD11 and clock it with an OCX... |
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 8, 2021 21:28:58 GMT -6
Analog filters, cuting the garage before it hits the converter is priceless. I would love to give this a try. With the Upton, I'm finding that, for the first time, I can actually get away with EQing on the way in. I'd love to try a LPF pre-compressor and then brighten it up after the fact. Wish I still had my Great River 32EQ, would have been perfect. Just play a Marshall 100 watt for a few weeks at full tilt and you won't be bothered with pesky high end any more for the rest of your life, hehe. Serious answer, it's something I decided to tune out after a while. There's always going to be a "little bit" of this stuff, so I try not to worry about it. One practical tool to try, is a de-esser across your mix bus! Give it a serious attempt. I'm definitely cool with some crunchy HF distortion here and there! The one area where I just can't get past it is vocals. Probably because I've thrown way too much money at my recording chain, and also because I suffer from Lead Singer Syndrome. Good call on de-essing the mix. I always forget to try that and should do it more often. Had this problem when I had Antelope converters. Don’t have this problem any more with my UA Apollo MKII converters. Yes, Room and mics make a big difference, but if that’s not the issue, I’d look at your converters. Transparency is cool, but sometimes the more “transparent” converters are actually hyped in the high frequencies. 3kHz and the air frequencies are the areas where this buildup has been a real problem for me in the past with certain converters. This is where my head's at currently. I've tried so many different mics, preamps, rooms, outboard, etc., and still have the same problem (albeit much less now than before). I've also used the same exact gear (including the same type of room treatment!) in pro studios and never had the issue there. I'm very tempted to sell my Aurora and get something like an AD16x or a Lavry AD11 and clock it with an OCX... What converters are you using now? |
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 8, 2021 21:43:35 GMT -6
I would love to give this a try. With the Upton, I'm finding that, for the first time, I can actually get away with EQing on the way in. I'd love to try a LPF pre-compressor and then brighten it up after the fact. Wish I still had my Great River 32EQ, would have been perfect. I'm definitely cool with some crunchy HF distortion here and there! The one area where I just can't get past it is vocals. Probably because I've thrown way too much money at my recording chain, and also because I suffer from Lead Singer Syndrome. Good call on de-essing the mix. I always forget to try that and should do it more often. This is where my head's at currently. I've tried so many different mics, preamps, rooms, outboard, etc., and still have the same problem (albeit much less now than before). I've also used the same exact gear (including the same type of room treatment!) in pro studios and never had the issue there. I'm very tempted to sell my Aurora and get something like an AD16x or a Lavry AD11 and clock it with an OCX... What converters are you using now? Currently, an original Lynx Aurora 8 + an Apollo Twin MKI. With the Upton, the best results so far have been from using the Apollo A/D clocked off the Lynx. The Lynx A/D is good, too, but using the Apollo A/D with the Synchro Lock clock on the Lynx is a noticeable improvement. The Apollo on its own clock sounds kind of crappy to me. |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 8, 2021 22:27:58 GMT -6
Room treatment, room treatment, and room treatment. I favor diffusion. That’s like A-No. 1 Even close mics pick up all kinds of zingy trash. That's a really interesting idea. How would you use diffusion for vocals? Any particular kind of diffusors you recommend? I have a bunch of ASC tube traps that have an absorptive side and a diffusive side — I tried using the diffusors for vocals, but it made the problem even worse. However, that was with an M149, which I've since sold for an Upton 251. Maybe I'll give that a try next. 1) You've gone from a bright mic, to a bright mic. Sure, I different type of bright, but still. Have you considered a vintage style ribbon? 2) How's your space, including the floor and ceiling? Please include height? If the room is short, a really simple cloud and do WONDERS. 3) Have you tried different spaces? |
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Post by christopher on Jul 8, 2021 22:38:25 GMT -6
When we listen to voice in real life, we never hear lip-smacking clarity or trebly nuances. So when I hear a ribbon that’s rolled off or similar good sounding dark condenser, it’s like there’s no microphone it feels ultra realistic. And then I think of the freq chart and feel like a fool. But then I remember we don’t talk into each other’s ears, so it’s not normal to hear close-mic bright voice. Knowing that, if you are aiming for more realism, try roll off the highs, it can be trial and error.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 8, 2021 23:17:03 GMT -6
That's a really interesting idea. How would you use diffusion for vocals? Any particular kind of diffusors you recommend? I have a bunch of ASC tube traps that have an absorptive side and a diffusive side — I tried using the diffusors for vocals, but it made the problem even worse. However, that was with an M149, which I've since sold for an Upton 251. Maybe I'll give that a try next. 1) You've gone from a bright mic, to a bright mic. Sure, I different type of bright, but still. Have you considered a vintage style ribbon? 2) How's your space, including the floor and ceiling? Please include height? If the room is short, a really simple cloud and do WONDERS. 3) Have you tried different spaces? Totally agree about the ceiling — my room has a really low ceiling (about 8 feet). I installed a 4' x 4' cloud a few years back and it made a huge difference. Definitely bright mics for sure, but the Upton is a big step in the right direction for me. Much clearer and more relaxed in the mids and the NOS Mullard made the highs a little sweeter. Still, there's this nagging quality to the high frequencies that I really don't think is inherent to the mic, or myself — it's happened with every mic I've used at home, and it doesn't happen when I record at other studios. I've tried other rooms in my house, but to no avail. What's really perplexing to me is that in another studio, I used the same mic (M149), same channel strip (Wunder PEQ2R), and same room treatment (tube traps) and I could still never match that sound for the life of me. The studio recordings just sound leaps and bounds ahead of mine — and they were recorded in a freaking walk-in closet! I'll try and post some audio to show what I'm talking about. |
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Post by theshea on Jul 9, 2021 1:11:04 GMT -6
i had the same problems and went the same path in getting me smoother highs.
the solutions for me are: room treatment, instruments, mics and mic placement.
all make important contribution!
in the past i would never ever boost highs in the mix, because they sounded awfull. now i am finally able to boost those highs in the mix like „the pro‘s“ do ;-)
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Post by Guitar on Jul 9, 2021 4:22:51 GMT -6
If you could run into a Neve 1073 channel strip (BAE is what I used) or some kind of "good Pultec" EQP1A style hardware, I find either one of these really able to control the top end on a voice.
The Neve you would just use the high shelf turned down a bit, the Pultec you would use the Low Pass Filter, sort of the secret knob of the pultec.
If you get this vocal channel dialed in perfectly you might have less fighting to do in the mix, track with just a little EQ here.
I guess that would mean buying some hardware, but hey, this is RGO, LOL!!! If you're chasing the gold voice channel path, sure why not add a special box. It's your most important instrument.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 5:02:22 GMT -6
Ribbons and EVs
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 9, 2021 8:09:53 GMT -6
If you’ve used the same recording chain at other studios but not experienced the problem there, then it does suggest something going on solely at your place. It’s difficult to imagine it’s the Aurora’s fault, but it may well be worth trying different converters to see, especially something known more for a little mellower top end, perhaps an Apogee of some sort.
If you’re really concerned about dirty power at your house, can you run your rig off a battery supply for a few mins? Long enough to get a sample recording?
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Post by Guitar on Jul 9, 2021 8:16:59 GMT -6
Could be something in the DAC / Power amp / Monitor Speaker / Room chain also. If there's some harshness there, you'll never get rid of it without changing some piece. Echo Audiofire was doing this to me for a long time. (Probably not Aurora but who knows.) Some speakers are like that, too. Soft dome tweeters in general can be that way. Another thing to consider, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 8:24:56 GMT -6
If you’ve used the same recording chain at other studios but not experienced the problem there, then it does suggest something going on solely at your place. It’s difficult to imagine it’s the Aurora’s fault, but it may well be worth trying different converters to see, especially something known more for a little mellower top end, perhaps an Apogee of some sort. If you’re really concerned about dirty power at your house, can you run your rig off a battery supply for a few mins? Long enough to get a sample recording? The original Aurora had harsh treble vs the older Apogee 16s. Might be worth an upgrade to something more modern and a bit less harsh, eg Aurora N, Apogee, MOTU, Burl. |
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Post by Ward on Jul 9, 2021 10:22:11 GMT -6
The best answers here have been given by some of my closest REP friends on this site.
I'll just add one more thing I learned from Puig: Don't be afraid to LPF at 16khz or lower - they can't hear above that anyhow, and most don't want to.
And gently slope your 2-buss EQ on the top end from 4khz up anyhow. Softens the brittleness, tames the zing, saves your ears and makes for better more natural sound.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 9, 2021 11:59:49 GMT -6
Room treatment, room treatment, and room treatment. I favor diffusion. That’s like A-No. 1 Even close mics pick up all kinds of zingy trash. That's a really interesting idea. How would you use diffusion for vocals? Any particular kind of diffusors you recommend? I have a bunch of ASC tube traps that have an absorptive side and a diffusive side — I tried using the diffusors for vocals, but it made the problem even worse. However, that was with an M149, which I've since sold for an Upton 251. Maybe I'll give that a try next. I simply suggest treating the live room area as much as possible. Then build a free standing booth with moveable gobos when tracking vocals. I have some home made tube traps that clean up the low mids nicely...haven't noticed much of a difference in the top when using them near a vocalist. For diffusers, I am pretty high on polys at the moment. Recently built some for short money and they made a massive difference, plus, you can stuff em full of pink fluffy and help tame some lower room resonances (mine work down to about 80hz, amazingly enough). |
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 9, 2021 13:11:49 GMT -6
If you’ve used the same recording chain at other studios but not experienced the problem there, then it does suggest something going on solely at your place. It’s difficult to imagine it’s the Aurora’s fault, but it may well be worth trying different converters to see, especially something known more for a little mellower top end, perhaps an Apogee of some sort. If you’re really concerned about dirty power at your house, can you run your rig off a battery supply for a few mins? Long enough to get a sample recording? This is an EXCELLENT suggestion and I can't believe I hadn't thought to try that. Reasons why I love this board! If you could run into a Neve 1073 channel strip (BAE is what I used) or some kind of "good Pultec" EQP1A style hardware, I find either one of these really able to control the top end on a voice. The crazy thing is I actually tried two different 1073s (Vintech + AMS Neve) hoping it would alleviate the issue and unfortunately, they didn't help much. Amazing gear for sure, though. I loved the tone, just not enough to justify the price. I wish I could have kept one of them. The original Aurora had harsh treble vs the older Apogee 16s. Might be worth an upgrade to something more modern and a bit less harsh, eg Aurora N, Apogee, MOTU, Burl. I'm starting to realize this might be the case... if it ends up being the Aurora I'm not digging, I'm totally going Apogee. Would love to try a used AD16x. I know it's a legacy converter, but my thinking is that if it was good enough for some of my favorite records, there's no reason it can't hold up today. Then again, I could always give the Symphony Desktop a shot. I think I'll have to try things in this order — 1. a battery backup, as Mark suggested, 2. retrying the tube trap diffusors, 3. ferrite beads (cheap enough to where I don't care if it works or not lol!), and if none of that helps... 4. different converters. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 9, 2021 13:37:48 GMT -6
Had this problem when I had Antelope converters. Don’t have this problem any more with my UA Apollo MKII converters. Yes, Room and mics make a big difference, but if that’s not the issue, I’d look at your converters. Transparency is cool, but sometimes the more “transparent” converters are actually hyped in the high frequencies. 3kHz and the air frequencies are the areas where this buildup has been a real problem for me in the past with certain converters. You use Apollo AD? |
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