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Post by RealNoob on Jul 5, 2021 19:47:02 GMT -6
Hi, Do most rely on the ME to open up the top end and reveal the details? I catch myself felling like a mix sounds right and then after mastering, realizing I was a little dark - not bad - and that mastering really opens things up.
This last album, I tried the clariphonic and hammer plugs to try and improve there but my additions seem hard compared to what the ME can provide.
So, is this you or what do you do to add the detail and top in a way that makes you happy?
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 5, 2021 20:05:57 GMT -6
Well...are you happy with it after you ME does his/her thing?
If so..
Why worry about it? He/she is taking good care of you.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 5, 2021 21:06:21 GMT -6
Volume alone makes for an apparent brightness diff, if you're leaving headroom for mastering, it's gonna seem brighter already. I've almost never heard a master that wasn't brighter than the pre-master. It's definitely bad when they have to darken a mix.....had that on a session I lost control of, and the drummer dimed the treble on the OH's in the mix.....
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 5, 2021 22:45:38 GMT -6
THats a good point. Limiting usually causes things to be brighter.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 5, 2021 22:54:04 GMT -6
Well...are you happy with it after you ME does his/her thing? If so.. Why worry about it? He/she is taking good care of you. Because I like to learn
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 5, 2021 22:58:07 GMT -6
Volume alone makes for an apparent brightness diff, if you're leaving headroom for mastering, it's gonna seem brighter already. I've almost never heard a master that wasn't brighter than the pre-master. It's definitely bad when they have to darken a mix.....had that on a session I lost control of, and the drummer dimed the treble on the OH's in the mix..... I agree on sending a harsh or crunchy top end that had to be darkened. I wasn't aware of the result of limiting. I didn't expect tone to change automatically. I have always resolved to thinking I could not create the detail and space that my ME can with his hardware. However, just seeing if the 'always brighter' feeling was just me. Thanks for the sanity check. I have wondered, "how close to a final master can I get at mix time?".
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Post by jmoose on Jul 5, 2021 23:36:18 GMT -6
I agree on sending a harsh or crunchy top end that had to be darkened. I wasn't aware of the result of limiting. I didn't expect tone to change automatically. I have always resolved to thinking I could not create the detail and space that my ME can with his hardware. However, just seeing if the 'always brighter' feeling was just me. Thanks for the sanity check. I have wondered, "how close to a final master can I get at mix time?". How close? Pretty damn close IMO but that's a conversation best had with whoever's been doing your mastering. Yeah masters come back a little brighter & open more often then not. Sort of expected. Surprisingly though when I ask what they did to the top end, the answer is often they didn't touch it... instead cleaned up midrange muck which gives the same effect. Rip out some frequencies I'm totally not zoned on while mixing like 400Hz & 1.6k I try to send notes along to mastering about overall impressions both from myself & the artist... both on the album as a whole & song by song comments. My focus while mixing is trying to make the best, most artistic & flattering choices possible for a cohesive release. Then let mastering focus on minor details and evening out from song to song.
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Post by thecolourfulway on Jul 6, 2021 1:38:17 GMT -6
My focus while mixing is trying to make the best, most artistic & flattering choices possible for a cohesive release. Then let mastering focus on minor details and evening out from song to song. Exactly this ^^ yeah you could try to mix in a way that sounds “mastered” but that shouldn’t be your focus. Feel the song, worry about the elements working together and the emotional journey….let the ME sort out the rest. If the masters come back brighter you didn’t necessarily do anything “wrong”, it just wasn’t what you were concerned with
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Post by Guitar on Jul 6, 2021 5:21:10 GMT -6
Could be that ear fatigue after a 4+ hour mix (just an estimate) could result in a slightly dark top? Just an idea. I know I am sensitive to brightness long term like this, sometimes end up rolling things back in the thick of a mix. That's why I use Focal monitors, gentle-ish tweeters, for less HF confusion in a long mix.
Cool thread!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 6, 2021 6:44:12 GMT -6
I've found mastering usually brings out the vocal and the drums. So I try to compensate now and if anything, mix vocals a pinch lower, like 1 to 1.5 DB lower than I prefer at first.
It works, but it takes experience to trust in the mastering doing what you're tempted to do mixing. Also, I check level balance in many ways, but the main thing I do is check at very low volume to see what I hear, then just a pinch louder, then a lot louder. I've found that if vocals are still blended and not too forward at high volume, then you've got it right.
It took me an entire album of mixing my vocals too loud and sending them to master before I could handle dealing with it this way.
I've found mastering does bring out more low level details, but they've never come back too bright, just a little clearer.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 6, 2021 7:50:41 GMT -6
I've found mastering usually brings out the vocal and the drums. So I try to compensate now and if anything, mix vocals a pinch lower, like 1 to 1.5 DB lower than I prefer at first. I do the same, mixing mostly on the Avantones to get the levels right. Whatever the vocal level is on those is usually right everywhere else. On the mains, it'll sound a bit more buried but in a good way.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 6, 2021 7:57:35 GMT -6
Hi, Do most rely on the ME to open up the top end and reveal the details? I catch myself felling like a mix sounds right and then after mastering, realizing I was a little dark - not bad - and that mastering really opens things up. This last album, I tried the clariphonic and hammer plugs to try and improve there but my additions seem hard compared to what the ME can provide. So, is this you or what do you do to add the detail and top in a way that makes you happy? I try to get it finished where it's moving and sounds complete to me. Totally count on the mastering stage to bring it up to level and sort out anything I missed to a degree. A lot of work spent on dessing and that type of thing for sure though. They can only do so much if I fail there. I do use a Clariphonic MKII on the vocals but it's just a touch. It can do cool things but I still find it a bit confusing, honestly, as it often leads me to that point where I can't tell if I'm improving that range of the vocals or not. It can quickly take me out of the sweet spot.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 8:06:24 GMT -6
Limiting produces imd thus perceived brighter and harsher sound. As for mixing hot, the mastering engineer can always lower the gain digitally and do whatever he wants anyway. He just got rid of the volume you sacrificed the sound to achieve. No way you can tell with modern 64-bit float mixers in DAWs. The advocates of these mixes peaking at under -1dbfs simply are hurting themselves. Their heavy limiting is hitting another processing chain ending in a limiter thats distorting the distortion from whatever junk was on the stereo bus in mixing.
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Post by svart on Jul 6, 2021 8:31:45 GMT -6
Mix it how you want it to sound. Don't expect or desire that someone else will finish it for you.
The best thing a mastering engineer can do is say that they didn't do anything because it sounded fine as-is.
I found that my mixes always sounded bass heavy, so I turned up my sub to compensate so I would mix bass lighter. Then it sounded thin compared to pro mixes. I subscribed to one of those mixing club things online and watched a few pros mix their work.
Snare? Top end boost. Snare bus? Top end boost. Drum bus? Top end boost. Guitars? Top end boost. Guitar bus? Top end boost.. Master channel? Yup, top end boost.
A few dB here and there to combat the loss you get of top end through compression, etc.
I wasn't mixing bass heavy so much as I was mixing top end light.
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Post by svart on Jul 6, 2021 8:33:17 GMT -6
Limiting produces imd thus perceived brighter and harsher sound. As for mixing hot, the mastering engineer can always lower the gain digitally and do whatever he wants anyway. He just got rid of the volume you sacrificed the sound to achieve. No way you can tell with modern 64-bit float mixers in DAWs. The advocates of these mixes peaking at under -1dbfs simply are hurting themselves. Their heavy limiting is hitting another processing chain ending in a limiter thats distorting the distortion from whatever junk was on the stereo bus in mixing. -1db? Shoot, I'm hitting -0.1db. lol
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Post by christopher on Jul 6, 2021 12:52:41 GMT -6
I trust an ME to not just grab a shelf and boost the highs to the right place and call it done. I hope they take extra time and experiment with MS and widen up certain areas in the sides, or narrow others, while managing the mid. And I hope they use extremely expensive EQ where I’m stuck with Fabfilter. I can do it with FF and it sounds pretty great, but I don’t really have the setup to take it all the way. So I intentionally leave space for them to play around. Their methods are way cleaner and better.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 6, 2021 17:27:16 GMT -6
#1 - Mix it how you want it to sound. Don't expect or desire that someone else will finish it for you. #2 - The best thing a mastering engineer can do is say that they didn't do anything because it sounded fine as-is. #1 - yes of course #2 - That's part of the point of the post - get people talking about their experience with that continual perceived brightness and journey towards making mastering easier. I also add top throughout but it never is where the master is. I have no problem with my ME and I am not expecting him to do the work I should be doing. That's not what this is about.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 6, 2021 17:32:41 GMT -6
If you mix into a limiter, it'll give you more of an idea what mastering will sound like.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 6, 2021 17:46:42 GMT -6
As i read this i'm wondering if anyone is being fooled by a cleaned-up midrange resulting in a perception of 'brighter' or 'more detailed'. I know I've certainly fallen for this plenty of times.
I don't rely on mastering for anything, including loudness. My assumption is that it might get sent to a hack in the worst case scenario in which case i don't want them to fuck anything up in pursuit of volume, or in the best case scenario it'll go to someone great who can just dial in what i've given them. Since taking this approach, I've been much happier with the results of both my mixes AND the masters I get back.
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Post by svart on Jul 6, 2021 18:26:54 GMT -6
As i read this i'm wondering if anyone is being fooled by a cleaned-up midrange resulting in a perception of 'brighter' or 'more detailed'. I know I've certainly fallen for this plenty of times. I don't rely on mastering for anything, including loudness. My assumption is that it might get sent to a hack in the worst case scenario in which case i don't want them to fuck anything up in pursuit of volume, or in the best case scenario it'll go to someone great who can just dial in what i've given them. Since taking this approach, I've been much happier with the results of both my mixes AND the masters I get back. I think maybe I was. You get used to clean and clear and think it's bright, but it's not when you compare to pro mixes. It even seems overly bright even even making the adjustments but it's only because you're not used to it. I find that I don't have to try to clean up the mids so much, and honestly I think it helps not making the mid cuts.
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Post by drbill on Jul 6, 2021 18:38:58 GMT -6
To accentuate the air or space surrounding a mix is not something I can do ITB with any plugin I've tried. High end analog gets it for me every time though. Between an Avalon 2055, the Silver Bullet "Air" band, the LilPEQr's air band, and the AS Pultec's - to a bit lesser of a degree - I can almost always find it easily. For the upper midrange and lower highs, the Miad 4040 works really well for me. It's 330Hz is also like the magic cut that cleans and scrubs everything so gently. But really, for air and opening up the atmosphere surrounding a mix that always seems to be hidden before mastering, the Air band on the Silver Bullet is perfect for me. I guess it should be as Brad and I worked to make it perfect for "ME". . Brad did a bunch of fun tricks with it, but one is that the Bax shelf is up around 60kHz. It pulls down so beautifully and gently into the area where we can hear the atmospheric stuff in a mix. So beautiful. I really don't have to play with much in the way of M-S tricks to get things where I want them.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 6, 2021 19:16:25 GMT -6
To accentuate the air or space surrounding a mix is not something I can do ITB with any plugin I've tried. High end analog gets it for me every time though. Between an Avalon 2055, the Silver Bullet "Air" band, the LilPEQr's air band, and the AS Pultec's - to a bit lesser of a degree - I can almost always find it easily. For the upper midrange and lower highs, the Miad 4040 works really well for me. It's 330Hz is also like the magic cut that cleans and scrubs everything so gently. But really, for air and opening up the atmosphere surrounding a mix that always seems to be hidden before mastering, the Air band on the Silver Bullet is perfect for me. I guess it should be as Brad and I worked to make it perfect for "ME". . Brad did a bunch of fun tricks with it, but one is that the Bax shelf is up around 60kHz. It pulls down so beautifully and gently into the area where we can hear the atmospheric stuff in a mix. So beautiful. I really don't have to play with much in the way of M-S tricks to get things where I want them. The doc for confirming the hardware edge. I will quit trying to push plugins.
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Post by drbill on Jul 6, 2021 19:57:50 GMT -6
To accentuate the air or space surrounding a mix is not something I can do ITB with any plugin I've tried. High end analog gets it for me every time though. Between an Avalon 2055, the Silver Bullet "Air" band, the LilPEQr's air band, and the AS Pultec's - to a bit lesser of a degree - I can almost always find it easily. For the upper midrange and lower highs, the Miad 4040 works really well for me. It's 330Hz is also like the magic cut that cleans and scrubs everything so gently. But really, for air and opening up the atmosphere surrounding a mix that always seems to be hidden before mastering, the Air band on the Silver Bullet is perfect for me. I guess it should be as Brad and I worked to make it perfect for "ME". . Brad did a bunch of fun tricks with it, but one is that the Bax shelf is up around 60kHz. It pulls down so beautifully and gently into the area where we can hear the atmospheric stuff in a mix. So beautiful. I really don't have to play with much in the way of M-S tricks to get things where I want them. The doc for confirming the hardware edge. I will quit trying to push plugins. There are certainly some great plugin EQ tools out there. But I use them for things other than bringing out the air and detailed transparency around a mix.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 6, 2021 20:20:04 GMT -6
I find the Silver Bullet indispensable for air and detail. The distortion stages can be used really effectively to bring up low level detail (not to mention, added loudness), and the air band is a lovely, transparent boost for opening things up. Though too much of the "N" settings can start to dull the HF a bit, so it's a balancing act, as is everything in audio.
I also really like my Maag EQ4 pair on the mix buss. I usually run em MS, which opens up a lot of really cool front-to-back possibilities that go way beyond simply eq'ing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2021 7:01:53 GMT -6
As i read this i'm wondering if anyone is being fooled by a cleaned-up midrange resulting in a perception of 'brighter' or 'more detailed'. I know I've certainly fallen for this plenty of times. I don't rely on mastering for anything, including loudness. My assumption is that it might get sent to a hack in the worst case scenario in which case i don't want them to fuck anything up in pursuit of volume, or in the best case scenario it'll go to someone great who can just dial in what i've given them. Since taking this approach, I've been much happier with the results of both my mixes AND the masters I get back. Well the sound actually does get brighter, ie treble gets relatively louder, after you take the sub 1khz junk and then exactly match the pre eq volume. It’s not just an increase in clarity.
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