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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 9:56:46 GMT -6
So - I have a Burl...(don't laugh - it's only the second time I've bought one)...I'm waiting on a Thunderbridge for my Symphony, that way I can clock the Symphony with the Burl (you can't do it while connecting via USB). But I am able to go straight into the Burl using it's own clock, then out of the Burl via AES or SPDIF into the Symphony (skipping it's AD conversion) and it works...but I'm getting occasional pops and clicks. So - you HAVE to choose one as the master clock? The first time I tried the Burl, I couldn't afford to keep a decent second interface...so I ended up with some Presonus (using the Emotiva DC-1 I had at the time for DA) to use as the interface that connected to the computer. It was buggy, glitchy and I wasn't familiar with the software - just a pain. So I kept it for two days and just decided it wasn't worth the change. Since then, I've bought the Burl to use with my Symphony. Now - I've only been able to use the Burl with the symphony using their own respective clocks, so I'm getting occasional pops like I mentioned, but I definitely have been able to hear what the Burl does over the past 5 or so days. Does it sound better? Yes. I was telling Cowboy and ricfoxx that I hear a more "hi fi" sound. More top, more bottom, etc. I haven't used it on anything of importance yet - but I've been building a demo song and it's kind of throwing me for a loop a little. Things sound brighter than I'm used to...and that wasn't something that I was expecting. Am I just hearing the truth now? I don't know...but it's going to require me to approach things differently. I've used this Symphony for so long that change of any kind tends to make me nervous  . So...for me personally...the verdict is still out. I'm gonna wait and get the Thunderbridge and see how everything works for a while. This might just be one of those things that I need to use for a while to get used to it - then I'll probably ask how I could live without it. The question for me is this: Can this $2200 + $450 be spent in places that will be of better benefit for my sound. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 29, 2014 10:07:43 GMT -6
2 buss chain.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 10:21:11 GMT -6
You're saying run it back out into the Burl? Can I do that digitally? Or are you saying back through the Analog ins?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 29, 2014 10:27:59 GMT -6
Not sure how to quote the way I want on my phone...
"The question for me is this: Can this $2200 + $450 be spent in places that will be of better benefit for my sound."
Spending the $3k on a 2 buss chain would be a better benefit imo.
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 29, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -6
John, what do you have the attenuator at?? What levels are you hitting the burl?
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 10:44:33 GMT -6
-16...yeah - how do I calibrate how I hit the Burl?
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 10:45:23 GMT -6
Not sure how to quote the way I want on my phone... "The question for me is this: Can this $2200 + $450 be spent in places that will be of better benefit for my sound." Spending the $3k on a 2 buss chain would be a better benefit imo. But Slate says I only have to spend $99 |
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Post by matt on Apr 29, 2014 11:32:00 GMT -6
Ah, the eternal debate: what hardware do you really need? Does cost/benefit even figure into the decision making process? For me, it often has not. GAS is an insidious disease.
JK, I would set one of the interfaces as a master clock if at all possible. I connect both Burl AD and DA to my Apollo via coax W/C. Works perfectly with no glitches.
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 29, 2014 12:11:55 GMT -6
Ah, the eternal debate: what hardware do you really need? Does cost/benefit even figure into the decision making process? For me, it often has not. GAS is an insidious disease. JK, I would set one of the interfaces as a master clock if at all possible. I connect both Burl AD and DA to my Apollo via coax W/C. Works perfectly with no glitches. Yeah JK I would just set the burl to ext and clock from the Apogee until you get the thunder bridge. I run at -16 also. Im no expert but I used a signal generator set at 1k to calibrate my console. I hit the Burl at about -14 and peak from -9 to -6 max. You know I haven't seen an explanation of the attenuator anywhere...so I just used my ears to see what settings I liked best. I really think the Burl is one of those pieces Im glad I reached for. Im not selling it (unless it's to get a mothership.) As far as it being the best $$ spent for the most gains, I don't know. I know Jcoutu1 said 2 buss and I know that is $$ well spent but i think if Jcoutu1 hit the Burl on the way back in after that Phoenix he has... he might shit his pants. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 12:52:54 GMT -6
So RicFoxx - is this what you're talking about? "You're saying run it back out into the Burl? Can I do that digitally? Or are you saying back through the Analog ins?" I guess you WANT to do that analog in - that's what you're doing it for, right? Sorry - if I'm being a dumbass. |
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Post by svart on Apr 29, 2014 12:55:22 GMT -6
I would say, yes, something has to be the master clock. Your digital frames are going to be timing dependent, and if anything in the chain is slightly off, you'll eventually skip time and get a pop/click. I don't know how either of these generate their clocks or how they do timing recovery, but the solution is to probably use the Burl as the master and slave everything else to it. I always think that using the A/D clock is the best choice, as low jitter conversion is most important here. Clocking through cables sucks due to the inherent jitter and noise that will happen, but it might be a necessary evil when working with multiple digital devices that might have varying quality clocks.
Just remember that AES and SPDIF have no set timing, although some encoders will insert bits for timing recovery.. And as well, some receivers will extract the timing and lock to it.
Maybe it's as simple as a setting that automatically slaves the second device to the AES/SPDIF that needs to be turned off?
From wiki:
"The receiver does not control the data rate, so it must avoid bit slip by synchronising its conversion with the source clock. This means that S/PDIF cannot fully decouple the final signal from influence by the analogue characteristics of the source or the interconnect, even though the digital audio data can normally be transmitted without loss. The source clock may carry inherent jitter or wander, and noise or distortion introduced in the data cable may further influence the process of clock recovery.[5][6][7] If the DAC does not have a stable clock reference then noise will be introduced into the resulting analogue signal. However, receivers can implement various strategies which limit this influence.[7][8]"
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 13:03:13 GMT -6
Interesting, svartSo, W/C is the best solution? Honestly, I've never used W/C...What's all the talk about termination...blah blah blah...I just want to know if I can I hook up two cables and then get back to songwriting |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 13:10:15 GMT -6
So I would actually just use one W/C cable...from the OUT on the Burl to the IN on the Symphony, then depress the Terminate button on the Symphony? Set Burl to INT clock and Symphony to External?
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Post by svart on Apr 29, 2014 14:04:30 GMT -6
Interesting, svartSo, W/C is the best solution? Honestly, I've never used W/C...What's all the talk about termination...blah blah blah...I just want to know if I can I hook up two cables and then get back to songwriting I'm not sure it's the best solution, but it'll work better than SPDIF/AES, which are almost the same thing, and weren't really designed for clocking as far as I know. Termination generally means that a known load is used at the receiving end, so that no reflections occur, and that the power transfer is linear across the known frequency range used. In short, it means that the designer knows exactly how the signal will react and look coming or going to any piece of equipment. Each device that has W/C should already have all terminations you need. It's only when you have splitting and chaining that might be advisable to do your own terminations. |
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Post by svart on Apr 29, 2014 14:05:33 GMT -6
So I would actually just use one W/C cable...from the OUT on the Burl to the IN on the Symphony, then depress the Terminate button on the Symphony? Set Burl to INT clock and Symphony to External? That's pretty much all you should need to do, unless something is different than usual. It might be in your device manuals in that case. Anyway, make sure you use a known 75R cable. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 29, 2014 15:16:13 GMT -6
I can tell you that I had the same issues with the Symphony and Burl with crackles and pops. I simply do not have those problems with the Avid Omni/Burl B2 just simply using SDIF. Hopefully using word clock or thunderbolt will fix that.
JK it seems to me the perfect setup for you would be the Apollo/D-Box/Burl combo. This would give you everything you want. The DA on the D-box is killer and you will not miss the symphony DA and you will have the ability to track with or monitor with UAD stuff, which I miss, even with PT HD. You have your front end covered and you have probably the most musical A/D converter in the known universe and you will add to your arsenal a hybrid summing setup for the same amount of $$$'s. Then you can GAS for your 2 buss chain and pop your mixes through the Burl hitting it harder than you track through...this is my take!
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 22:20:33 GMT -6
Mo money Mo money Mo money
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 22:21:35 GMT -6
Is the Dangerous DA really THAT good? For some reason I just never warmed up to it the thought of it...
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 29, 2014 23:29:47 GMT -6
Can you take it over to Sal's and compare to the Ross Martin. I would love to hear what you two think of them after comparing.
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Post by lolo on Apr 30, 2014 0:02:22 GMT -6
Great idea. Also would love to hear it against the Ross Martin.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 30, 2014 0:19:28 GMT -6
I'll see if Sal's got some time next week...
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 0:29:30 GMT -6
this is probably the sluttiest gear thread i've read on this site  |
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Post by lolo on Apr 30, 2014 8:47:06 GMT -6
I know a little off topic....... But one of my dreams would be a 8 I/O Burl interface around the $2k mark  |
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Post by svart on Apr 30, 2014 9:08:20 GMT -6
Even more off topic.. If you had 3x ADAT optical I/O and a W/C BNC, I have a cheap SSL alphalink for sale..
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 30, 2014 9:54:53 GMT -6
Spdif was very much designed for clocking. The problem is that first generations of AES/EBU/SPDIF transceivers were an incompetently engineered steaming pile of you know what. This had the unfortunate effect of creating massive amounts of audiophile mythology about clocks and clocking. Anything employing the best contemporary chips will perform just as well as word clock and probably better! It's also a myth that an external clock can be better than internal however the jitter spectrum created by an external clock can make playback sound more flattering. Great doing an analog transfer but otherwise meaningless out in the real world.
So where does that leave me? I run my cheapest converter on internal and use its spdif output to clock the better recent converters because they are more likely to have recent, properly designed transceivers. If possible, I only use the best converter available set to internal.
Too many audio and chip manufacturers have hid behind demands for ABX tests rather than fixing their incompetent designs. What finally sobered them up was directors pointing at jitter artifacts on video screens that they couldn't bs their way out of acknowledging the need to fix. Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.
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. So...for me personally...the verdict is still out. I'm gonna wait and get the Thunderbridge and see how everything works for a while. This might just be one of those things that I need to use for a while to get used to it - then I'll probably ask how I could live without it. The question for me is this: Can this $2200 + $450 be spent in places that will be of better benefit for my sound. 
