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Post by everged on Jun 30, 2021 9:27:50 GMT -6
Hi again all.
Really appreciated the advice in my 500 series filters thread.
I'm going to be pairing my RNDI with The Silver Bullet. Running guitar DI into the API pre.
The RNDI is active though, and so requires phantom power.
The Silver Bullet delivers its phantom power in Mic & Mic+ modes.
Is there any potential disadvantage to running the DI box into the mic input?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2021 9:51:25 GMT -6
Should be no problem and is in fact the way most DI’s are used, BUT I would probably check with Brad and see if the Silver Bullet phantom supply can deliver enough power.
I am not singling out Brad , DrBill or the SB here, my problem with DI’s like the RNDI is that in most mass market pres the phantom PSU is an afterthought there just to check a box on a comparison chart.
You might just find using a dedicated phantom supply like the old Crown 4 banger is simply more consistent and easier.
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Post by everged on Jun 30, 2021 10:35:34 GMT -6
Thanks for the insight.
Hopefully someone from LTL can give some more
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 30, 2021 10:36:35 GMT -6
Hi again all. Really appreciated the advice in my 500 series filters thread. I'm going to be pairing my RNDI with The Silver Bullet. Running guitar DI into the API pre. The RNDI is active though, and so requires phantom power. The Silver Bullet delivers its phantom power in Mic & Mic+ modes. Is there any potential disadvantage to running the DI box into the mic input? I've been running the stereo RNDI into two CAPI FD312 WH's for a couple of years now. I think the SB will do just fine in your setup, no disrespect to ericn |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2021 10:47:45 GMT -6
Hi again all. Really appreciated the advice in my 500 series filters thread. I'm going to be pairing my RNDI with The Silver Bullet. Running guitar DI into the API pre. The RNDI is active though, and so requires phantom power. The Silver Bullet delivers its phantom power in Mic & Mic+ modes. Is there any potential disadvantage to running the DI box into the mic input? I've been running the stereo RNDI into two CAPI FD312 WH's for a couple of years now. I think the SB will do just fine in your setup, no disrespect to ericnNone taken, it’s just a possible issue and with guys Like Brad, Steiger or Matt it’s so easy to ask if there might be an issue before hand! |
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Post by Quint on Jun 30, 2021 13:33:01 GMT -6
Should be no problem and is in fact the way most DI’s are used, BUT I would probably check with Brad and see if the Silver Bullet phantom supply can deliver enough power. I am not singling out Brad , DrBill or the SB here, my problem with DI’s like the RNDI is that in most mass market pres the phantom PSU is an afterthought there just to check a box on a comparison chart. You might just find using a dedicated phantom supply like the old Crown 4 banger is simply more consistent and easier. Yep. I agree. A lot of people don't think about the fact that they may be underpowering their condenser mics and DIs. Also, using external phantom supplies keeps you from having to worry about accidentally patching phantom somewhere it doesn't belong. I have seven (28 channels total) of the Audio Technica CP8506 (four channels unit) for this exact reason. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 30, 2021 13:51:06 GMT -6
Should be no problem and is in fact the way most DI’s are used, BUT I would probably check with Brad and see if the Silver Bullet phantom supply can deliver enough power. I am not singling out Brad , DrBill or the SB here, my problem with DI’s like the RNDI is that in most mass market pres the phantom PSU is an afterthought there just to check a box on a comparison chart. You might just find using a dedicated phantom supply like the old Crown 4 banger is simply more consistent and easier. Yep. I agree. A lot of people don't think about the fact that they may be underpowering their condenser mics and DIs. Also, using external phantom supplies keeps you from having to worry about accidentally patching phantom somewhere it doesn't belong. I have seven (28 channels total) of the Audio Technica CP8506 (four channels unit) for this exact reason. This has never even crossed my mind. What would be an indicator of underpowered condensers? |
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Post by Quint on Jun 30, 2021 15:24:47 GMT -6
Yep. I agree. A lot of people don't think about the fact that they may be underpowering their condenser mics and DIs. Also, using external phantom supplies keeps you from having to worry about accidentally patching phantom somewhere it doesn't belong. I have seven (28 channels total) of the Audio Technica CP8506 (four channels unit) for this exact reason. This has never even crossed my mind. What would be an indicator of underpowered condensers? You'd have to look up the specs for whatever preamp you're using. The standard is supposed to be 48v, 14mA, but some manufacturers cheap out and their built in phantom power supply doesn't actually supply that much voltage/current. I'm no expert on this stuff. I know there are others here that could probably talk to you about this in depth for hours but, in a nutshell, less than adequate power could reduce the sensitivity of the mic, for starters. In any case, rather than having to worry about which preamps may or may not provide the correct phantom power, I just exclusively use standalone phantom power supplies so that I don't have to worry about it. An additional benefit is that I don't have to worry about patching phantom into the wrong place in my patchbays. www.tangible-technology.com/power/phantom_aug02.htm |
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Jun 30, 2021 15:47:29 GMT -6
This has never even crossed my mind. What would be an indicator of underpowered condensers? You'd have to look up the specs for whatever preamp you're using. The standard is supposed to be 48v, 14mA, but some manufacturers cheap out and their built in phantom power supply doesn't actually supply that much voltage/current. I'm no expert on this stuff. I know there are others here that could probably talk to you about this in depth for hours but, in a nutshell, less than adequate power could reduce the sensitivity of the mic, for starters. In any case, rather than having to worry about which preamps may or may not provide the correct phantom power, I just exclusively use standalone phantom power supplies so that I don't have to worry about it. An additional benefit is that I don't have to worry about patching phantom into the wrong place in my patchbays. www.tangible-technology.com/power/phantom_aug02.htmThis IS a poorly understood quality. Power supplies, including phantom, are the foundation of great sonics. For example, though the phantom build out resistors limit max current to 14mA, the underlying power supply behind those resisters may not have the gas to deliver that maximum on demand. Pueblo Audio phantom channels have the reserve to deliver 1500mA! I hate to write it this way, but this is seriously stiff and firm power! Further, each of our phantom channels are individually regulated. This is like each mic and/or DI having its very own power supply, No sharing. Max isolation and resolve so each powered device can operate at its full potential. |
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Post by nudwig on Jul 1, 2021 15:52:49 GMT -6
If I run my Pueblo OLLA active I use the Coil phantom box, always seems to be more detailed that way, same as my Vanguard v44s going into the Silver Bullet and in my head the slow ramp up and down is easier on my old 84. Plus I'm lazy and I like the ability to grab anything that's going to be phantom powered in the session and just fire it up and switch to various pres without powering down.
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 1, 2021 16:51:56 GMT -6
If I run my Pueblo OLLA active I use the Coil phantom box, always seems to be more detailed that way, same as my Vanguard v44s going into the Silver Bullet and in my head the slow ramp up and down is easier on my old 84. Plus I'm lazy and I like the ability to grab anything that's going to be phantom powered in the session and just fire it up and switch to various pres without powering down. I have considered getting the Coil 4 channel box. Seems like it’s the right way to go. |
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Post by everged on Jul 4, 2021 18:02:41 GMT -6
A wee update:
I experimented with different modes etc earlier today.
Mic+ was needed to get enough juice out of a single preamp without clipping off the tops of any transients.
So I don't think the track and mix modes would have been suitable anyway.
Api only with no output attenuation and the pre at 12 o'clock yielded a nice upfront and detailed sound.
Api into Neve with both pres around 12 o clock and output reduced appropriately, yielded a nice balance of presence and character.
Neve on it's own was a little mid heavy (but will be perfect for bass)
Neve into api was the least useable of the 4 options in this instance.
I'm still hoping someone from LTL can chime in on the quality of the phantom power (as per the above discussion), and also on the suitability of this set up / pairing in general.
Cheers!
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Post by drbill on Jul 4, 2021 22:19:18 GMT -6
I'm still hoping someone from LTL can chime in on the quality of the phantom power (as per the above discussion), and also on the suitability of this set up / pairing in general. Cheers! Not sure I really understand your question. The 48V Phantom in the Silver Bullet is fine. I've tried it on all kinds of condensers. No issues. |
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Post by everged on Jul 5, 2021 10:14:34 GMT -6
I'm still hoping someone from LTL can chime in on the quality of the phantom power (as per the above discussion), and also on the suitability of this set up / pairing in general. Cheers! Not sure I really understand your question. The 48V Phantom in the Silver Bullet is fine. I've tried it on all kinds of condensers. No issues. Hey Bill. Badass tone amp! It's not something I had really thought could be an issue myself, until I read the above conversation in this thread. In this instance I'm specifically referring to it powering the RNDI active DI box as opposed to any mic. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 5, 2021 10:50:16 GMT -6
I believe you're overthinking it. The above conversation is all generalized theoretical "talk" until a specific unit / problem occurs. If you want to talk overbuilt, mega power supplies - I'm your guy. It seems so many think that a power supply just turns on any particular unit, and I always have to laugh. I'm a huge proponent of overbuilt, modded power supplies for gear. The power supply is the essence of any piece of gears "sound". The very backbone as it were. I have spent countless hours doing listening tests to the SB power supply. Tweaking here and there to achieve the sound we were after. For Brad it's a never ending quest.
Where you find problems is generally in cheap gear or poorly designed gear where the "designer" just used off the shelf power supplies that are under-built to cost parameters without even doing any listening or interfacing testing. i.e. super cheap generic Chinese stuff.
The Silver Bullet has a robust power supply. I have not used the RNDI box, but if it falls within standard 48v spec, the Silver Bullet will power it handily. Good luck.
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Post by everged on Jul 5, 2021 10:53:44 GMT -6
I believe you're overthinking it. The above conversation is all generalized theoretical "talk" until a specific unit / problem occurs. If you want to talk overbuilt, mega power supplies - I'm your guy. It seems so many think that a power supply just turns on any particular unit, and I always have to laugh. I'm a huge proponent of overbuilt, modded power supplies for gear. The power supply is the essence of any piece of gears "sound". The very backbone as it were. I have spent countless hours doing listening tests to the SB power supply. Tweaking here and there to achieve the sound we were after. For Brad it's a never ending quest. Where you find problems is generally in cheap gear or poorly designed gear using off the shelf power supplies that are under-built to cost parameters. i.e. generic Chinese stuff. The Silver Bullet has a robust power supply. I have not used the RNDI box, but if it falls within standard 48v spec, the Silver Bullet will power it handily. Good luck. I am an overthinker to the max haha. Cheers though Bill. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 5, 2021 10:56:11 GMT -6
I believe you're overthinking it. . I am an overthinker to the max haha. Cheers though Bill. Haha! I hear ya. I've been know to overthink things..... LOL |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 5, 2021 11:09:18 GMT -6
I believe you're overthinking it. The above conversation is all generalized theoretical "talk" until a specific unit / problem occurs. If you want to talk overbuilt, mega power supplies - I'm your guy. It seems so many think that a power supply just turns on any particular unit, and I always have to laugh. I'm a huge proponent of overbuilt, modded power supplies for gear. The power supply is the essence of any piece of gears "sound". The very backbone as it were. I have spent countless hours doing listening tests to the SB power supply. Tweaking here and there to achieve the sound we were after. For Brad it's a never ending quest. Where you find problems is generally in cheap gear or poorly designed gear where the "designer" just used off the shelf power supplies that are under-built to cost parameters without even doing any listening or interfacing testing. i.e. super cheap generic Chinese stuff. The Silver Bullet has a robust power supply. I have not used the RNDI box, but if it falls within standard 48v spec, the Silver Bullet will power it handily. Good luck. I figured you or Brad would pop in and say no problem, but as we both know the second you assume something, it’s going to bite you in the ass. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 5, 2021 13:35:29 GMT -6
The max any mic under spec can pull is 15 milliamps per channel. The Silver Bullet provides 100 milliamps at 48v. Plenty of headroom.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 5, 2021 15:31:26 GMT -6
The max any mic under spec can pull is 15 milliamps per channel. The Silver Bullet provides 100 milliamps at 48v. Plenty of headroom. Great to know you guys really over specked the current, there are a couple of mics that are well known for drawing more than the spec and for the life of me I can’t remember what they are. |
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Post by plinker on Jul 6, 2021 7:18:51 GMT -6
This has never even crossed my mind. What would be an indicator of underpowered condensers? You'd have to look up the specs for whatever preamp you're using. The standard is supposed to be 48v, 14mA, but some manufacturers cheap out and their built in phantom power supply doesn't actually supply that much voltage/current. I'm no expert on this stuff. I know there are others here that could probably talk to you about this in depth for hours but, in a nutshell, less than adequate power could reduce the sensitivity of the mic, for starters. In any case, rather than having to worry about which preamps may or may not provide the correct phantom power, I just exclusively use standalone phantom power supplies so that I don't have to worry about it. An additional benefit is that I don't have to worry about patching phantom into the wrong place in my patchbays. www.tangible-technology.com/power/phantom_aug02.htmThe phantom power spec for mics is no more than 10 mA draw. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2021 8:14:10 GMT -6
You'd have to look up the specs for whatever preamp you're using. The standard is supposed to be 48v, 14mA, but some manufacturers cheap out and their built in phantom power supply doesn't actually supply that much voltage/current. I'm no expert on this stuff. I know there are others here that could probably talk to you about this in depth for hours but, in a nutshell, less than adequate power could reduce the sensitivity of the mic, for starters. In any case, rather than having to worry about which preamps may or may not provide the correct phantom power, I just exclusively use standalone phantom power supplies so that I don't have to worry about it. An additional benefit is that I don't have to worry about patching phantom into the wrong place in my patchbays. www.tangible-technology.com/power/phantom_aug02.htmThe phantom power spec for mics is no more than 10 mA draw. But when talking about supplies, the standard is 14mA. Better to have too much current than too little. |
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Post by plinker on Jul 6, 2021 8:44:04 GMT -6
The phantom power spec for mics is no more than 10 mA draw. But when talking about supplies, the standard is 14mA. Better to have too much current than too little. I'm totally with you on "better to have too much current than too little" -- but I don't agree that 14 mA is "the standard." I like Ciletti's articles but, in the one you linked, he is only suggesting what's possible using two resistors, not stating the standard.
I'm unable to find an DIN spec for how much current is supposed to be provided by phantom supply. I can only find phantom current limits for mics (10 mA), and very few mics require that much. So, for the majority of us, 48v and 10mA is way more than enough.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2021 9:37:22 GMT -6
But when talking about supplies, the standard is 14mA. Better to have too much current than too little. I'm totally with you on "better to have too much current than too little" -- but I don't agree that 14 mA is "the standard." I like Ciletti's articles but, in the one you linked, he is only suggesting what's possible using two resistors, not stating the standard.
I'm unable to find an DIN spec for how much current is supposed to be provided by phantom supply. I can only find phantom current limits for mics (10 mA), and very few mics require that much. So, for the majority of us, 48v and 10mA is way more than enough.
I've seen that 14 mA number mentioned elsewhere too. That's just an article I happened to link to. To be clear, I should say that 14 mA is the maximum allowed by the typical 6.8K resistor in a phantom circuit, the idea being that 14mA gives you a comfortable margin over the 10mA mic requirement you mentioned. So maybe "standard" wasn't the correct way to refer to it, but it is the "common" upper limit of current in a lot of phantom supplies. I suppose the question then becomes which phantom supplies are actually capable of ever even pushing up against that limit anyway? Which is Eric's original point. As it relates to the original discussion, I'd still rather have 14mA on tap than just barely enough at 10mA or 11mA, assuming that your phantom supply is even giving you 10mA. The same goes for voltage. Also, keep in mind that, as Eric mentioned, phantom isn't just used for mics. I'd want as much power as I could get for a DI. 10mA might cut it for a mic, but I could see certain power hungry DIs requiring more. |
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Post by plinker on Jul 6, 2021 11:40:23 GMT -6
Quint, I think it's great that you're happy with your outboard phantom supply, and hope that it gives you peace-of-mind. You're making some assumptions that I want to address to prevent unnecessary concern by others: - " I'd still rather have 14mA on tap than just barely enough at 10mA": Understood. But, very, very few mics need a full 10mA, and most are way below that. So, not only is there plenty of power for most mics, there's also headroom to spare. Here's a list of some mics and their current requirements: www.sounddevices.com/phantom-powering-basics. Unless someone is using Earthworks, he's probably not pushing the limits. - " Assuming that your phantom supply is even giving you 10mA": I'm highly suspicious that any modern, pro-level interfaces aren't providing the full 10mA, simultaneously, on each channel. I know for a fact that my ULN8s can. - " As it related to the original discussion...10mA might cut it for a mic, but I could see certain power hungry DIs requiring more": Maybe, if they don't adhere to the AES spec. As it relates to the original discussion, The RNDI uses 4.5mA : rupertneve.com/products/rndi#resources. |
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