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Post by RealNoob on Jun 21, 2021 13:17:04 GMT -6
I have played my reference tracks from other player sources and at times, brought tracks into a session. Of course, they are mastered and I have ignored that mostly but people lately seem to be making a bigger deal of this and suggest things like slamming your mix with a limiter when comparing.
When I reference, I am not personally comparing the quality of my work against the reference, I am looking in a more detailed way - is the bottom end similar, is the overall tonality similar, is the top end similar, what effect are they using for "X", does my snare have enough bottom - more micro than macro.
What do you do to make the most of your reference tracks? How do you approach it or what methods do you use?
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 21, 2021 13:21:10 GMT -6
I might dial up a comparable song to what I'm working on during the first mix to act as a sort of 'reset / recalibrate button' for my ears, but once I'm happy with a song on a record, I tend to start mostly referencing the existing mixes as I work through the album.
BTW i really like Melda mcompare for this task.
In terms of loudness and stuff, if that's gonna be a key part of the aesthetic, i'm usually mixing into a limiter, or at least, monitoring through one, and keeping an eye / ear (yes, both) on loudness as i proceed. I don't really like to rely on the mastering for loudness; I'd rather address that as i mix.
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Post by jmoose on Jun 21, 2021 13:57:18 GMT -6
I don't use reference tracks anymore. Never pull them out mid-session. Find I end up losing the plot and chasing my tail.
Always ask the artist what their high water marks are... albums they love the sound of. I'll play some music at the start of the day or after long break to recalibrate my ears but 10-20 minutes of that and I've had enough.
Ref mixes, depending on the source get played through the 2-track return on the desk. Level match/control is accomplished with an SPL meter set to C-weight and the big old volume knob.
Edit - FWIW I'm one of those whacko's who still has a dedicated CD player in the shop!
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Post by srb on Jun 21, 2021 14:09:41 GMT -6
Not much of a reference track guy here, either. I, too, ask about songs/albums the client likes, and if I don't know it, I'll look it up.
I tend to reference my first mix on a project after it's completed and go from there with the balance of the tunes.
I can't recall the last time I used a reference proper before a mix.
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Post by thecolourfulway on Jun 21, 2021 14:24:26 GMT -6
I just use War Pigs as a reference track for everything I’m only half-joking. That guitar tone, the rubbery deep lows, the presence and evenness of the vocal is just fantastic. I’m also partial to the sound of the drums (which a lot of people probably think sound pretty bad). The bass tone is ehhh and it’s hard panned but whatever it’s just bass
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Post by ragan on Jun 21, 2021 15:14:26 GMT -6
I have played my reference tracks from other player sources and at times, brought tracks into a session. Of course, they are mastered and I have ignored that mostly but people lately seem to be making a bigger deal of this and suggest things like slamming your mix with a limiter when comparing. When I reference, I am not personally comparing the quality of my work against the reference, I am looking in a more detailed way - is the bottom end similar, is the overall tonality similar, is the top end similar, what effect are they using for "X", does my snare have enough bottom - more micro than macro. What do you do to make the most of your reference tracks? How do you approach it or what methods do you use? Run, don’t walk to grab a demo of ADPTR Metric AB! That tool changed my (mixing) life. You may know this but PA runs sales a lot, too. Don’t pay full price.
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Post by jaba on Jun 21, 2021 15:50:30 GMT -6
I go through phases with this and lately I've been doing it more. Not to try and match anything specific, mostly a brain reset when I inevitably start to question what my ears are telling me. After listening to a couple tracks I know very well, I hear my mix with somewhat fresh ears - how are the highs and lows are sitting?, is something oddly congested?, etc. I do this maybe twice in a mix.
I also highly recommend Metric AB. Very useful tool.
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Post by schmalzy on Jun 22, 2021 8:04:14 GMT -6
I'll reference to reset my ears. Using SPAN I'll check my mix volume against whatever the source volume is so they're level matched.
I'll also reference - again, level matched - if I'm pushing something really hard. If the mix wants a ton of low end, or really aggressive guitars, or super bright vocals, yada yada yada... Brains are dumb and too quickly we get acclimated to odd-sounding shit. The reference tracks get used to make sure I'm not going too crazy far with anything.
I mix most of my track without a master limiter. As I approach the middle end of a mix I drop on my mastering loudness chain so I can hear what will happen to my transients, width, ambience effects, etc. as the volume gets pushed in the mastering process. Inevitably I end up turning the drums up a little more and pushing a little more side volume to get "back" to the balance I was hearing before the loudness chain.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Jun 22, 2021 8:14:55 GMT -6
I just use War Pigs as a reference track for everything I’m only half-joking. That guitar tone, the rubbery deep lows, the presence and evenness of the vocal is just fantastic. I’m also partial to the sound of the drums (which a lot of people probably think sound pretty bad). The bass tone is ehhh and it’s hard panned but whatever it’s just bass I don't think cocaine and bigger studios did Sabbath's sound any favors. I think those first two records are among the finest sounding heavy rock ever cut.
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Post by theshea on Jun 22, 2021 8:46:03 GMT -6
i think i „should“ use more reference tracks because my mixes come out a tad dark most of the times. but modern mixes are so damn hars and trebly ... so maybe that‘s why i don‘t reference other tracks that much.
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Post by ericn on Jun 22, 2021 9:04:41 GMT -6
I only use reference tracks to learn the room / monitors. It amazes me how often the sweet spot isn’t the mix position. I also like to walk the room with reference tracks so that I know if I get up to get a drink and here something different, I have contex for what I hear.
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Post by christopher on Jun 22, 2021 11:41:01 GMT -6
Last week I was doing online research into final steps.. There are at least a couple click bait YouTube vids I came across telling people to EQ and smash with a limiter before sending to mastering, “you don’t want them deciding the sound for you”. To me that’s really bad advice. Supposedly the best way is to do it is attended mastering. Next best is to the use same ME, do revisions trial/error until both of you come to understand what works best, then the next songs should be easier. Maybe it turns out better when you smash it first? I doubt it.
Its a problem.. I’ve been sending clients louder MP3s and they love it. Now that mixes are about done I’m sending quiet full-res versions, they are having a tough time, thinking it’s all wrong. So I just sent both full res and “mastered by me” MP3s so they can hear how different the same mix sounds. Fingers crossed.
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Post by jmoose on Jun 22, 2021 13:48:03 GMT -6
Last week I was doing online research into final steps.. There are at least a couple click bait YouTube vids I came across telling people to EQ and smash with a limiter before sending to mastering, “you don’t want them deciding the sound for you”. To me that’s really bad advice. Supposedly the best way is to do it is attended mastering. Next best is to the use same ME, do revisions trial/error until both of you come to understand what works best, then the next songs should be easier. Maybe it turns out better when you smash it first? I doubt it. Its a problem.. I’ve been sending clients louder MP3s and they love it. Now that mixes are about done I’m sending quiet full-res versions, they are having a tough time, thinking it’s all wrong. So I just sent both full res and “mastered by me” MP3s so they can hear how different the same mix sounds. Fingers crossed. That brings up a key point... deliverables. What are you handing over as a "mix" ? Obviously we're probably all adult enough to realize that level is absolutely an issue. If the artist puts up an unmastered mix against basically anything else in their playlist its going to sound wimpy. And we suck. Not a fair assessment IMO but common enough that 'ya gotta roll with it. Several years ago at the end of basic tracking I rolled roughs for the band & producer before we left the studio. IIRC they were straight off the desk with nothing on them. Comment I got back from the producer was to pump up the volume. Said that while he appreciated the full dynamics & not screwing around with what we captured, the band? They aren't critical listeners. They're checking things out in their cars and boomboxes. Fair enough! So since then I've adopted a system of delivering a "flat mix" which is 24 bit & usually 88.2 - Tell them that's what we send to mastering and all your vinyl & whatnot is getting cut from. And I also shove out pumped up 16 bit mp3's for those less then critical listeners... So they can throw stuff in a playlist and not get completely blown out of the water. And sometimes I'll add a little EQ to those if I feel the need. Dip -2dB at 250Hz and/or put a little high shelf on to make things pop. Actual mastering & revisions? I have good relationships with a couple different people and try like hell to send everything to one of them. Communication is really clutch. Generally we don't get into attended sessions & lots of revisions, its generally unnecessary. Simply because most artists can't afford it... and/or it means we've got the wrong guy/approach to mastering. Attended sessions almost always cost more to start with and if we're 4-5 revisions in and still aren't happy? Problem! Plus really, I find that having someone listen on their own speakers at home or in the car or whatever is way more valuable feedback then sitting in a mastering room which is a foreign world. Nobody at home has exacting acoustics and $10k speakers. They have NO idea what they're listening to in that environment. And you have to give whoever's mastering some sort of input up front. If you just hand over tracks & say "cut this" then most likely nobody is going to be happy with what comes back.
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Post by RealNoob on Jun 22, 2021 15:13:59 GMT -6
Interesting to talk about deliverables. I get buy in with my main stakeholder right now before mastering. She likes to find consensus on mixes because her focus is orchestral in a sense - making sure all instruments are heard. She also likes a lean bottom end. These are different from my preferences and thus, the back and forth. Once I go to the ME, she lets go. In her listening, she is never concerned about levels - good thing. I don't have to pump it up for her.
Going to the ME, I don't limit or excessively EQ the master. I know I deliver a little dark and appreciate his gear for bringing up the detail and high end. It sounds much better than me trying to do it with plugins. I do expect some communication and Justin with Trakworx is great about it. I had to let an ME go because he wouldn't say two words about anything. He's a major player and has golden ears but I have to have some back and forth. I let another ME go because despite every way of communicating a goal, he couldn't or wouldn't hit it. His stuff was always too scooped.
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These things said, the OP is really about using mastered tracks for references successfully. I have seen some other discussion about this and like I mentioned, some speak of mixing into a limiter for that purpose. I'm a little freaked out about that. Can't do it. I actually have Metric AB but haven't used it - LOL. Guess I need to break it out.
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Post by christopher on Jun 22, 2021 16:00:51 GMT -6
re: references, lately this is what I’m doing. I check out a lot of references, mostly a 10 second listen to get ears calibrated and verify if I’m in the ballpark.
I have a few: Demi Lovato is what I use for too much low end, I don’t go beyond this. U2 every breaking wave was free, has a sub kick thing, I use that same way.
Mostly I use older mixes that I enjoy and happens that they aren’t pumped. Chris Isaac, Meters, Zep, etc etc anything/everything that I can get into.
In a project: I import 4 or so of these on a track, line them up after the session so I can scroll over and listen. lower the fader until it’s roughly same loudness as my project. Then I pop around see if my low end is in between Lovato and Zep for example.
The problem I’ve experienced: clients might say they REALLY want one thing, but then they compare it to a modern pumped track and think it’s all wrong. When you get them to compare it to the thing they want, magically it’s better again.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 22, 2021 17:05:56 GMT -6
Sometimes I use references, but the more experienced I become as a hobbyist, I totally trust into switching over to the NS 10. For some reason, I also can make a judgement how the lows will react on bigger ones. I have no idea why they stopped doing this UGLY bookshelf speakers....
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Post by jmoose on Jun 22, 2021 18:06:19 GMT -6
re: references, lately this is what I’m doing. I check out a lot of references, mostly a 10 second listen to get ears calibrated and verify if I’m in the ballpark. ~~~ The problem I’ve experienced: clients might say they REALLY want one thing, but then they compare it to a modern pumped track and think it’s all wrong. When you get them to compare it to the thing they want, magically it’s better again. Listening to a bunch of 10 second clips would confuse the hell out of me. I can't see how that helps..? I'll put up an album and pick 2 or 3 songs from it. Random quick clips? Time to get out of the room and clear my head... Musicians are the enemy. Some know exactly what they want. Many don't. Many others yes, will ask for one thing but really want something entirely different! And many still won't know what they actually like & want until they hear it. This is partially why I gave up on pulling in reference material. Its great to have a target but at some point the material needs to stand on its own merit.
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Post by srb on Jun 22, 2021 19:29:35 GMT -6
I actually have Metric AB but haven't used it - LOL. Guess I need to break it out. Haha...this is me.
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Post by theshea on Jun 22, 2021 22:56:41 GMT -6
Musicians are the enemy. Some know exactly what they want. Many don't. Many others yes, will ask for one thing but really want something entirely different! And many still won't know what they actually like & want until they hear it. This is partially why I gave up on pulling in reference material. Its great to have a target but at some point the material needs to stand on its own merit. bit harsh but yeah, sometimes its truth. yesterday i got one from the band listening next to me while mixing. „it should sound exactly like XD.“ ... and off course XY sounds totally different because of different instruments and playing style ... 🙄 ah how i hate the explaining part of that. and the other day i had a drummer in to record drums on a singers song. the singer was not totally clear what kinda drums he wanted and so the drummer did 81(!!!) takes of drums! for one song! 81!!! oh boy was it tedious ... he was playing ALL different kinds of variations: kick, toms, ride, hihats. he said: „ well than the singer can choose, just like on programmed drums.“ FOOORKIN‘ HELL!!! that‘s what pre-production is for! 😬 hated it but than its a client and he pays. but come on: 81! takes of drums: do your homework and come in prepared.
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Post by theshea on Jun 22, 2021 22:57:08 GMT -6
Musicians are the enemy. Some know exactly what they want. Many don't. Many others yes, will ask for one thing but really want something entirely different! And many still won't know what they actually like & want until they hear it. This is partially why I gave up on pulling in reference material. Its great to have a target but at some point the material needs to stand on its own merit. bit harsh but yeah, sometimes its truth. yesterday i got one from the band listening next to me while mixing. „it should sound exactly like XD.“ ... and off course XY sounds totally different because of different instruments and playing style ... 🙄 ah how i hate the explaining part of that. and the other day i had a drummer in to record drums on a singers song. the singer was not totally clear what kinda drums he wanted and so the drummer did 81(!!!) takes of drums! for one song! 81!!! oh boy was it tedious ... he was playing ALL different kinds of variations: kick, toms, ride, hihats. he said: „ well than the singer can choose, just like on programmed drums.“ FOOORKIN‘ HELL!!! that‘s what pre-production is for! 😬 hated it but than its a client and he pays. but come on: 81! takes of drums: do your homework and come in prepared.
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Post by christopher on Jun 23, 2021 14:01:22 GMT -6
Listening to a bunch of 10 second clips would confuse the hell out of me. I can't see how that helps..? After using a lot of references, it helped me figure out some things. Mastered mixes vary greatly, but they also have a few things in common and that’s what I try to listen for. It also helped me figure out not to be afraid to go way outside a specific reference. Some things that work in a specific reference won’t work for the song I’m working on. Other things that work in the song, wouldn’t work in the reference. But I scan around other references and see if I can find where someone did a similar thing, I’m not totally out of bounds and it turned out great for them, so I don’t need to backtrack so much. An example may be snare: Some mixes hide snare way back, sounds great, others bring it out above the vocal sounds great, so if the song is telling me one thing.. roll with it
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Post by ragan on Jun 28, 2021 16:28:40 GMT -6
You can pick up MetricAB for $19.99 right now with the PA sale and the $20 voucher
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 28, 2021 16:35:57 GMT -6
Thx, where is the voucher ?
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Post by ragan on Jun 28, 2021 16:49:38 GMT -6
Thx, where is the voucher ? They email it out if you're on their list. But it's a universal code: MEGA-SALE-20OFF
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 28, 2021 16:58:41 GMT -6
Tanks, Townhouse is also on sale for $39!
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