|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 13, 2021 8:07:45 GMT -6
RGOs.
Yesterday I made an extremely frustrating experience. An EX Guitar student wanted to record something, sure I helped.
His guitar, the cheapest Martin you can buy, a Martin GPCX1RAE back and sides are plastic HPL.
I tacked the guitar in several keys, and it was near free from nasty self resonances. I own guitars which are 3 to 4 times more expensive, and they all suffer from nasty resonant spots, in some ways more or less.
A 700 dollar guitar sounds just better in front of the mic.
I still can't believe it.
What is your experience. Are the most Martins a save bet for studio use? If yes, I know what to do.
|
|
|
Post by tkaitkai on Jun 13, 2021 8:38:59 GMT -6
I used to have one of the cheaper HPL Martins (GPCPA5), and while it was fun to play live, I absolutely hated it for recording. It just sounded clunky and dry no matter what mic I put in front of it. I’ve also had similar experiences with cheaper Taylor guitars.
On the other hand, I have a $600 Yamaha AC1R that records beautifully. You definitely get a lot of bang for your buck with the affordable Yamahas.
Glad the Martin worked for you, though. Acoustic guitars can be a really finicky instrument to record.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 13, 2021 8:51:46 GMT -6
It's always hit or miss with acoustic guitar recording. The best sounding guitar I've ever heard was my Martin D-41 Turbo. It was one of two ever made to those exact specifications.
I compared it to dozens of super high end acoustics by all the best know boutiques and manufacturers, and nothing compared. Even $10,000 guitars and rare 100+ year old Martin's.
When recording it was just too big, so you had to sit back further than usual. I had to sell it to pay bills. I now have a 22 year old Martin 000-16 Special Edition. It's small and records perfectly. I also have a Taylor Doyle Dykes that records well too. It was designed to be bright and stand out in club gigs. The Martin is warmer and more complex, with longer sustain and more overtones, but the Taylor is perky. That can sometimes be just what a track needs. I also have a cheap Yamaha I stringed for Nashville tuning, and in that capacity, it records beautifully.
I guess what I'm saying is it comes down to the individual guitar, generalizations aren't the last word.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 13, 2021 11:15:10 GMT -6
On expensive vs inexpensive Martin guitars to record,..I Don't know first hand if this is true, but have always heard the old Sigma's made decades ago through Martin in Japan but assembled by Martin in the U.S were good sounding guitars for recording that cost 3 digits instead of Martin's usual 4. I've always kept an eye out for one on CR but have yet to find/hear one in person.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jun 13, 2021 12:32:18 GMT -6
One thing I realized recently: I can think of the top the same way I think of drum head, and mic it similarly. That’s why I think 12th fret works, it’s near the edge of the “drum”. Same with over the shoulder, rear bout etc. so I went around the whole body with the mic looking over the edge and sure enough. So just like snares can vary, acoustics too, I hope this helps.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 13, 2021 14:21:44 GMT -6
On expensive vs inexpensive Martin guitars to record,..I Don't know first hand if this is true, but have always heard the old Sigma's made decades ago through Martin in Japan but assembled by Martin in the U.S were good sounding guitars for recording that cost 3 digits instead of Martin's usual 4. I've always kept an eye out for one on CR but have yet to find/hear one in person. I had a couple Sigma's and recommended them to many students, but they sounded like cardboard compared to the real Martin's, sorry to say.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 13, 2021 15:02:48 GMT -6
On expensive vs inexpensive Martin guitars to record,..I Don't know first hand if this is true, but have always heard the old Sigma's made decades ago through Martin in Japan but assembled by Martin in the U.S were good sounding guitars for recording that cost 3 digits instead of Martin's usual 4. I've always kept an eye out for one on CR but have yet to find/hear one in person. I had a couple Sigma's and recommended them to many students, but they sounded like cardboard compared to the real Martin's, sorry to say.
Which years/models were they if you remember Martin?
- My understanding is different Sigma years were made in different countries starting with Japan in the early 70's as Martin's affordable line with the Company using much of their same process as their flagship line, to then later Sigma versions after that from Korea , then Taiwan and Indonesia before the name was taken over by another company in the mid 00's....all of them sounding different as manufacturing changed , with the early ones from the 70's supposedly sounding very good to later ones not so much is what I always heard? How accurate that is, I don't know, but have heard it multiple times and places through the years.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Jun 13, 2021 15:17:54 GMT -6
Some instruments are just magic in the right hands and the right room. It just works that way. After the 3rd time an inexpensive instrument blows everyone away you learn to just smile, roll with it and everybody thinks your that fing good!
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Jun 13, 2021 17:16:10 GMT -6
One thing I realized recently: I can think of the top the same way I think of drum head, and mic it similarly. That’s why I think 12th fret works, it’s near the edge of the “drum”. Same with over the shoulder, rear bout etc. so I went around the whole body with the mic looking over the edge and sure enough. So just like snares can vary, acoustics too, I hope this helps. Just like with drums, I generally don't record acoustic guitars too close.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Jun 13, 2021 17:22:29 GMT -6
My wife’s Breedlove was $800, we played dozens of guitars over the span of a few days. The Breedlove beat out everything we played under $3000. Acoustics are delicate instruments. They’re susceptible to all kinds of things, aging wood, humidity, temperature, not to mention the level of craftsmanship. It’s not at all surprising to me that a cheaper guitar would beat out a significantly more expensive one.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 13, 2021 20:03:28 GMT -6
My wife’s Breedlove was $800, we played dozens of guitars over the span of a few days. The Breedlove beat out everything we played under $3000. Acoustics are delicate instruments. They’re susceptible to all kinds of things, aging wood, humidity, temperature, not to mention the level of craftsmanship. It’s not at all surprising to me that a cheaper guitar would beat out a significantly more expensive one. Three years ago I decided it was time to buy a “premium” acoustic guitar. Been playing since I was 13 and had never spent more than $500 on an acoustic. I’m a great used shopper and got some really solid guitars over the years this way. Anyway, with $2000 budget I started trying everything. And I mean everything. And boy was it disappointing! Many of the new “high end” guitars sound good but feel terrible with these sustainable woods. Sorry, but they feel like rubber on the neck. Finally started getting it narrowed down until I stumbled upon the Epiphone Masterbilt 500 MCE. Holy crap. THATS the sound and feel I’m talking about. $675. Go figure. Seriously wouldn’t trade this guitar for anything.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 13, 2021 21:00:35 GMT -6
Breedlove's can be very good.
Mike, I'm mainly referring to Sigma's from the 90's. I have played most of their earlier models I think, and was unimpressed. I wanted to be impressed, but was just left flat. Many had neck issues too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 21:16:27 GMT -6
It's all about the wood, I have an old Kramer Pacer electric and simply put no other guitar I've ever had or tried compares to it. Not even a Kramer pacer LOL (I bought one as a backup and it was rubbish).. It just resonates for days and I know it's a "cheap" guitar but I did have a guitar tech gut the thing, set it up, re-wire, re-fret and put some awesome pickups in it (no expense spared).
I would NEVER buy a guitar online because again you can have two identical models and one will just walk all over the other. IME it's not about price, make, brand or type. It's whatever sounds good in the shop.. I'm not a fan of Ibanez, had several in my time and when I went to buy a 12 string of course it was an Ibanez that sounded the best..
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jun 13, 2021 21:17:42 GMT -6
Could say that I wish I had a dollar for every time someone's $500 Takamine sounded better under mic then a Collings... but truth is I do have a lotta dollars from that. Too many variables at play to have a concise conclusion... like solo guitar or sitting inside 3 dozen other tracks? Melody lines? Big chords? Background vs foreground placement etc. Went on a similar acoustic search to gravesnumber9 a long time ago. Wanted something nice, no pickup... all of ,y previous acoustics had been gifts & kinda crappy. Like an Ovation. Played everything I could put my hands on. Ended up with an Alverez that was under $1k. Solid top & back. Sounds like a 2D Martin. Not quite as responsive or as much of a cannon. Less projection. One of these days I'll get myself a nice 000 style.
|
|
|
Post by askomiko on Jun 13, 2021 22:52:22 GMT -6
I had a new Sigma ten years ago, it sounded OK for the first year but then somehow lost it. And no, it wasn't just rusty strings Perhaps the murderous air humidity of 10% during the winter killed it, even though I didn't see any structural damage.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 14, 2021 2:56:07 GMT -6
I had a new Sigma ten years ago, it sounded OK for the first year but then somehow lost it. And no, it wasn't just rusty strings Perhaps the murderous air humidity of 10% during the winter killed it, even though I didn't see any structural damage. The Sigma line is owned by Germans now. I know their midrange Modells well by guitar students even though never tracked one.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 14, 2021 2:57:04 GMT -6
I had a new Sigma ten years ago, it sounded OK for the first year but then somehow lost it. And no, it wasn't just rusty strings Perhaps the murderous air humidity of 10% during the winter killed it, even though I didn't see any structural damage. The Sigma line is owned by Germans now. I know their midrange Modells well by guitar students even though never tracked one. From time to time they do all solid lines…
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jun 14, 2021 6:58:21 GMT -6
The Yamaha LL11 is the finest sounding recording acoustic I own. Over Martin D28 D18 00016, Gibson Custom shop J45, various Taylors etc.
It's amazing. The way it records is just out of this world useful .
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 14, 2021 8:40:56 GMT -6
Could say that I wish I had a dollar for every time someone's $500 Takamine sounded better under mic then a Collings... but truth is I do have a lotta dollars from that. Too many variables at play to have a concise conclusion... like solo guitar or sitting inside 3 dozen other tracks? Melody lines? Big chords? Background vs foreground placement etc. Went on a similar acoustic search to gravesnumber9 a long time ago. Wanted something nice, no pickup... all of ,y previous acoustics had been gifts & kinda crappy. Like an Ovation. Played everything I could put my hands on. Ended up with an Alverez that was under $1k. Solid top & back. Sounds like a 2D Martin. Not quite as responsive or as much of a cannon. Less projection. One of these days I'll get myself a nice 000 style.
Intresting....
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jun 14, 2021 18:08:56 GMT -6
Cool article. Rumor has it some of the MIJ acoustics were built with brazilian rosewood but I'm not sure I believe that.
Bought my Alverez new in 2004? Right off the wall at a local guitar shop. Spent a few months looking including a day at Rudy's on 48th street, played a few nice guitars but nothing that blew me away. One day I realized that Alverez wasn't any better or worse then anything else I had tried but it was way under budget so decided to end the madness. Its been a good studio guitar. I try to keep fresh strings on it and always change them if I know its going to get a workout.
This track was recorded with one of those Martin X series "formica" guitars...
Was originally intended to be a place holder and actually did borrow a Collings from one of my friends. But the Martin sounded better in the song. No contest. Used an AKG 460 through whatever preamp? No real thought, just get the idea down.
Head of the song also has mandolin tucked underneath... Keyboard player had just gotten a mandolin and of course wanted to add it to every song! Playing and tone wasn't strong enough to carry the part so we doubled it with the acoustic.
Rest of the song is live, just a take or two cut together. Band cut live in one room leakage and all. Vocals were dubbed with the singers facing each other... C37A on him & 77DX on her.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 14, 2021 18:54:16 GMT -6
Cool article. Rumor has it some of the MIJ acoustics were built with brazilian rosewood but I'm not sure I believe that. Bought my Alverez new in 2004? Right off the wall at a local guitar shop. Spent a few months looking including a day at Rudy's on 48th street, played a few nice guitars but nothing that blew me away. One day I realized that Alverez wasn't any better or worse then anything else I had tried but it was way under budget so decided to end the madness. Its been a good studio guitar. I try to keep fresh strings on it and always change them if I know its going to get a workout. This track was recorded with one of those Martin X series "formica" guitars... Was originally intended to be a place holder and actually did borrow a Collings from one of my friends. But the Martin sounded better in the song. No contest. Used an AKG 460 through whatever preamp? No real thought, just get the idea down. Head of the song also has mandolin tucked underneath... Keyboard player had just gotten a mandolin and of course wanted to add it to every song! Playing and tone wasn't strong enough to carry the part so we doubled it with the acoustic. Rest of the song is live, just a take or two cut together. Band cut live in one room leakage and all. Vocals were dubbed with the singers facing each other... C37A on him & 77DX on her. I had one of the first Martin x laminates. Sounded totally usable on recordings. Miked up live it sounded great too. Not super resonant but I almost think that helped?
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 14, 2021 19:24:50 GMT -6
I may have an idea why some guitars do it in tracking and others suck. High end guitars project big into the room. The luthier tries to get a thin top with the right bracing, not too thin, not to thick.
Cheap guitars often have a thicker bracing because they are sold all over the world. They need to survive in containers over a long sea trip.
My guesswork is they just move lesser air. The top is more solid. That’s why they have lesser of the typical distribution pressure at ø 100 Hz and 200 Hz…..?!
Ok it’s a wild guess…..
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Jun 14, 2021 19:54:59 GMT -6
Anybody notice how in every town there are this handful of what should be in theory awesome guitars that are in reality are total dogs that it seams everybody has owned at one time?
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jun 15, 2021 9:51:16 GMT -6
I had one of the first Martin x laminates. Sounded totally usable on recordings. Miked up live it sounded great too. Not super resonant but I almost think that helped? The guy in that recording bought the Martin X because his other project was doing an international tour and he needed a guitar that would hold up to the travel extremes & getting played 5 nights a week. For him it was buying a hammer, just a tool. No it wasn't super resonant. But that's good on a loud stage with volume vs feedback. And honestly? IMO once plugged in doesn't seem to matter if the guitar is a $500 Yamaha or a $3500 Taylor. Piezo pickup makes 'em all sound about the same. Unplugged though? That guitar didn't have much volume or projection. Remember one time we met up at what I'd call an "not so bluegrass" jam... Like all those instruments but not bluegrass players. So resonator, mandolin, banjo etc and his X series just completely disappeared. For recording that's not always so bad. Probably bad if its a solo guitar piece and really exposed. But in a busy track? Takes less space & needs less carving.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jun 16, 2021 6:35:08 GMT -6
Anybody notice how in every town there are this handful of what should be in theory awesome guitars that are in reality are total dogs that it seams everybody has owned at one time? There was a red USA Jazz Bass at guitar center here that "no one would buy," and it had been years. I almost felt bad for the thing, haha.
|
|