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Post by mrholmes on Jun 11, 2021 19:46:54 GMT -6
After going back and forward in the question to use more hardware and also a desk again.
I must say that the new plugins sound too good, and I can't justify all the hardware anymore.
I had a big HW sale last week.
The Raven arrived today. I am always in hyper-focus when I think a technology is interesting. It late in the night but so far I had some fun after a painful setup process.
KUDOS to the Slate Team, without their help in screen remote I would not have solved all issues.
I can say that the implementation in Logic is not perfect, but it's thus far away from being stupid.
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Most plug ins are not ready for multitouch use. But this problem is solved by some little helping tools form slate.
• It may is even slower vs shortcuts and mouse, but it's a clear fact that this is a positive thing. I can close my eyes and I start to listen more.
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With the raven, It's not exactly like behind big furniture, but it brings me closer to fun time.
• So far I can say that the biggest thing is the raven float mixer. I can touch multiple faders. Sadly there is no float sends mixer, something they should implement, because the logic sends knobs are too small for a touch display I always have to work with zoom gestures.
Its new and I don't know if I keep it. But I will let you know about my journey with the RAVEN MTI2.
Cheers A.
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Post by mcirish on Jun 12, 2021 6:42:16 GMT -6
I had thought about getting one every year but never pull the trigger. My issue is that I keep wondering:
Will it be slower than a mouse
Take up too much space
Be cumbersome to use
Make me keep my head down too much
Is integration with Nuendo good enough
I'd probably not like it if half of what I do has to be back on the mouse. Jumping between them might be an issue. I'm looking forward to what you think after using it a while.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 12, 2021 8:12:37 GMT -6
I had thought about getting one every year but never pull the trigger. My issue is that I keep wondering: Will it be slower than a mouse Take up too much space Be cumbersome to use Make me keep my head down too much Is integration with Nuendo good enough I'd probably not like it if half of what I do has to be back on the mouse. Jumping between them might be an issue. I'm looking forward to what you think after using it a while.
I think the main problem is it needs tons of customization. Yesterday it was 8 hours, today I am in the 5th hour.
I like the fact that I can use the float or external mixer, it's a plus, even if the design is a no-go.
It's far away from a console layout.... WHY?
Come on Steven are you serious about this mixer layout? BTW - looks a little like Toys R Us.
A great feature is the fine faders option, you can do moves with that which you hardly could do with a real fader. Feels very good at mixing time, very intutive.
BTW, the whole layout does not make the impression that professional product designers had to do with it. IMO, the layout could be much better - to make it even more intuitive.
The layout of the Toolbar, the 80s are long one.  Why in god's name have rectangle buttons different sizes? Watching the toolbar is a bit irritating because of this.
Touching something is more intuitive, the raven mixer is multitouch. The sends mixer feels like a toy and looks ugly as hell.... and makes no sense to me. Slate should make this better, with reading out the send fader names, or at least having the ability to type a name by myself.
But hey it's just the second day.
Please, give me some more time.
I need to collect some experience with it
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 18, 2021 15:54:16 GMT -6
The Raven stays and here is why.
Sure, some things could be better, such as the sends mixer or the FX window.
Every time I need to touch the mouse, because some plugs can't make their windows big, it is like please no.... It's about the fun part and the part to make working ITB more intuitive.
If you hate to learn 50+ key-comands.... the Raven is for you. If you hate to do the same things over and over again....you will love the Raven.
Working, ITB gets more intuitive with the Raven.
I can say that I listen more and that I stare lesser on the screen when using the Raven mixer.
The more I know the Raven the faster I get with my decisions. If you want to work ITB and you miss faders and turning knobs.... It's for you. It's not 100% the same as in the real world, but once you understand the customization idea behind it, - chances are great that you will love it.
You need to give the Raven some time...
It's something new, a different approach and IMO the future.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 18, 2021 21:54:12 GMT -6
I have such a hard time envisioning this thing having never seen one in person. How responsive is the "touch" compared to, say, an iPad?
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 19, 2021 3:27:10 GMT -6
I have such a hard time envisioning this thing having never seen one in person. How responsive is the "touch" compared to, say, an iPad? IMO it’s much more responsive. Again it takes some time it’s like learning a new instrument…. |
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Post by locrain on Jun 23, 2021 9:01:41 GMT -6
I have such a hard time envisioning this thing having never seen one in person. How responsive is the "touch" compared to, say, an iPad? IMO it’s much more responsive. Again it takes some time it’s like learning a new instrument…. It seems fantastic. But with the nature of software-driven hardware, I worry about getting my money back out it in years to come. I would say I'd use an ipad, but responsiveness is hard to put a price on. |
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 23, 2021 13:54:03 GMT -6
IMO it’s much more responsive. Again it takes some time it’s like learning a new instrument…. It seems fantastic. But with the nature of software-driven hardware, I worry about getting my money back out it in years to come. I would say I'd use an ipad, but responsiveness is hard to put a price on.
As with every investment, you get your money back because you use it.
Furthermore, I can see Slate updating this thing and making it even better.
I don't understand people, first they whine because with big furniture it was more intuitive.
Now they want to stay ITB and Steven Slate offers a compromise, but everyone is super critical.
The Raven forces you to listen more, instead of mixing with your eyes. Alone, this is worth the investment.
I told the Slate support which points are not so great. But nothing is perfect in our lives.
I just can speak for myself, the Slate Raven is made for those who want to concentrate on the music, and lesser on which key command was for erasing automation. It's now all right in front of me. I just use my hands, and I am done.
Again, there are pros and cons, overall I use the mouse just in 10% of the cases. I hope Slate finds ways to implement Logic X deeper into the Raven. The implementation of PT seems to be perfect.
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Post by locrain on Jun 24, 2021 13:15:20 GMT -6
It seems fantastic. But with the nature of software-driven hardware, I worry about getting my money back out it in years to come. I would say I'd use an ipad, but responsiveness is hard to put a price on.
As with every investment, you get your money back because you use it.
Furthermore, I can see Slate updating this thing and making it even better.
I don't understand people, first they whine because with big furniture it was more intuitive.
Now they want to stay ITB and Steven Slate offers a compromise, but everyone is super critical.
The Raven forces you to listen more, instead of mixing with your eyes. Alone, this is worth the investment.
I told the Slate support which points are not so great. But nothing is perfect in our lives.
I just can speak for myself, the Slate Raven is made for those who want to concentrate on the music, and lesser on which key command was for erasing automation. It's now all right in front of me. I just use my hands, and I am done.
Again, there are pros and cons, overall I use the mouse just in 10% of the cases. I hope Slate finds ways to implement Logic X deeper into the Raven. The implementation of PT seems to be perfect.
"Like any investments..." well, no, not really. It's fine to consider it an investment if there is reasonable ROA, but investments usually generate passive income. It seems like a great way to interface with your daw, if you can get along with a touchscreen. I'm not sure why my post seemed so inflammatory, I am a Slate fan, I own many of their products, some software, some hardware, they are all excellent. My only concern, which is entirely legitimate, is that the large sum of money needed may seem somewhat excessive compared to it's competition of the future. Early adopter fees are real. This depreciates instead of gaining value every year like an old console. I'm sure you have tried everything if you've trying this, but while I have the same frustrations with keyboard shortcuts as you seem to, labeled buttons like on the faderport help that quite a bit. And like the phone in my hand, I can't do a damn thing without staring at it, which throws a wrench into the mix with the hands, not the eyes idea for me. Faderport is the closest I have come to that. I can't match the muscle memory with a touchscreen. I haven't "whined" (or ever posted) about the Raven before, and my post you quoted wasn't whining either, just making an observation about the inevitable depreacitive nature of touchscreens and digital tech in general, and wondering about possible alternatives. I did learn more about it while researching it, seems like slate has done what they can to keep it a useful piece of tech into the future. But screens are one of the most rapidly advancing areas of tech right now, it is not hard to imagine a similar product that just rolls out onto your existing desk. The software can and hopefully will be improved. But touchscreens are by nature a very physical device, as they work using conductivity and capacitance, the improvements in that area will most likely be physical as well. There is nothing wrong with using cutting edge, there is also nothing wrong with cheaper workarounds until the form factor is more established. Either can be considered a waste of money or an investment. UI is one of the most subjective aspects of design, some will love it, some will not. I think its a phenomenal and expensive piece of tech that I don't have a chance in hell of getting ROA on, but I'm a nobody, I think its awesome you got it, and I hope you love the bloody hell out of it for a long time. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934 
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2021 9:36:47 GMT -6
It seems fantastic. But with the nature of software-driven hardware, I worry about getting my money back out it in years to come. I would say I'd use an ipad, but responsiveness is hard to put a price on.
As with every investment, you get your money back because you use it.
Furthermore, I can see Slate updating this thing and making it even better.
I don't understand people, first they whine because with big furniture it was more intuitive.
Now they want to stay ITB and Steven Slate offers a compromise, but everyone is super critical.
The Raven forces you to listen more, instead of mixing with your eyes. Alone, this is worth the investment.
I told the Slate support which points are not so great. But nothing is perfect in our lives.
I just can speak for myself, the Slate Raven is made for those who want to concentrate on the music, and lesser on which key command was for erasing automation. It's now all right in front of me. I just use my hands, and I am done.
Again, there are pros and cons, overall I use the mouse just in 10% of the cases. I hope Slate finds ways to implement Logic X deeper into the Raven. The implementation of PT seems to be perfect.
Andreas I think I know what he is trying to say, make no mistake I get everything you love about the Raven and long term it is probably the future of controllers. The problem is other manufacturers have treated expensive controllers as disposable goods. Slate is known for grand promises but let’s face it Slate isn’t building touch screens, he’s packaging software with an OEM touchpanel and is at the mercy of his OEM as well as all the other factors in the DAW world. Nobody likes to be at the mercy of a manufacturer, those of us who grew up in the world of analog are even less happy in this situation. Those of us who have gone through multiple generations of orphaned DAW are even less inclined. The Raven is probably only slightly more likely to end up being abandoned than any other 3rd party controller, but I’ll admit every time I see a thread or start getting interested in it, it’s the very first thing that comes to mind. My take on your investment? Thanks for being the lab rat my friend, thank you for letting me stay on the sidelines and see where this goes. I want it to work, I just don’t want to take the risk of getting burned. Been there done that both figuratively and literally. Now for my semi annual DAW controller protocol rant: if we want to move beyond the mouse and see where these different controllers can go we need a protocol beyond HUI that’s open to all Software, Controller and traditional hardware manufacturers! While we do have a decent protocol in EUCON we need something any hardware vendor can use. HUI is like driving a late 90’s Corrola because it is one in the age of Tesla ( imagine a controller that responds to the command “ open butthole” it makes everyone giggle when I get ready to charge.) |
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 30, 2021 16:52:15 GMT -6
As with every investment, you get your money back because you use it.
Furthermore, I can see Slate updating this thing and making it even better.
I don't understand people, first they whine because with big furniture it was more intuitive.
Now they want to stay ITB and Steven Slate offers a compromise, but everyone is super critical.
The Raven forces you to listen more, instead of mixing with your eyes. Alone, this is worth the investment.
I told the Slate support which points are not so great. But nothing is perfect in our lives.
I just can speak for myself, the Slate Raven is made for those who want to concentrate on the music, and lesser on which key command was for erasing automation. It's now all right in front of me. I just use my hands, and I am done.
Again, there are pros and cons, overall I use the mouse just in 10% of the cases. I hope Slate finds ways to implement Logic X deeper into the Raven. The implementation of PT seems to be perfect.
Andreas I think I know what he is trying to say, make no mistake I get everything you love about the Raven and long term it is probably the future of controllers. The problem is other manufacturers have treated expensive controllers as disposable goods. Slate is known for grand promises but let’s face it Slate isn’t building touch screens, he’s packaging software with an OEM touchpanel and is at the mercy of his OEM as well as all the other factors in the DAW world. Nobody likes to be at the mercy of a manufacturer, those of us who grew up in the world of analog are even less happy in this situation. Those of us who have gone through multiple generations of orphaned DAW are even less inclined. The Raven is probably only slightly more likely to end up being abandoned than any other 3rd party controller, but I’ll admit every time I see a thread or start getting interested in it, it’s the very first thing that comes to mind. My take on your investment? Thanks for being the lab rat my friend, thank you for letting me stay on the sidelines and see where this goes. I want it to work, I just don’t want to take the risk of getting burned. Been there done that both figuratively and literally. Now for my semi annual DAW controller protocol rant: if we want to move beyond the mouse and see where these different controllers can go we need a protocol beyond HUI that’s open to all Software, Controller and traditional hardware manufacturers! While we do have a decent protocol in EUCON we need something any hardware vendor can use. HUI is like driving a late 90’s Corrola because it is one in the age of Tesla ( imagine a controller that responds to the command “ open butthole” it makes everyone giggle when I get ready to charge.)
Eric.
Thanks for the insight. I see it from a different view point. My Raven is a B Stock with full guarantee @400 bucks off. My investment risk is low.
Sure, the touch technology is still in progress, and it's not the last call in the development process. For Logic, it's a smart idea to use the HUI-Protocol, and it works extremely flawless. Maybe its old code and maybe it needs something new, but that's something for future updates.
I would be OK if the hardware needs to be upgraded one day.
The main flaws I have with the Raven is minor spots in the layout of the software. The touch screen software is also customizable, gestures, as well as how the screen reacts.
I like the fact that I can lay out the batch commander with buttons. Because many things are over and over the same.
To me, one button is easier to press, compared to using different commands + mouse. Sure, shortcuts and mouse will be faster sometimes. I am OK with a slow process, everything is too fast these days anyway.
In the end it makes my day easier because after a while with the Raven I act more intuitive. Sure, a real fader is a real fader, but again the Raven does things which can't be done with real faders.
The big plus for me is the mixing console.
I can use multi faders / pan knobs and can play a mix, special when laying down automation - easier than ever before.
I can open plug ins right in front of my face, and they follow my fingers. It is pure fun to EQ E-Base against Kick with both SSL4K strips open.
Adding non-linear processors feels much more like using real gear - special, when the GUI follows the size ratio of real gear. It would be great if all plug-in-developers support multitouch use its yet Slate and TDL.
I just can speak for myself. It's not a lie when Steven claims that the Raven helps to concentrate more on the music. To me, it's also a fact that I get my job dome with lesser tension in my shoulders. Pure DAW forces me to think the mix, Raven forces me to feel the SONG/MIX.
Maybe the transition phase is PITA. Perseverance is the keyword.
Cheers A.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 17, 2021 3:13:28 GMT -6
An update after two more weeks.
Setup works now and sure not everything is cool in LogicX.
I would take care for a more console like sends mixing in the Raven mixer someone can hope.
Overall arrangement and mixing is really enjoyable with the Raven.
For tracking I switch it off.
It has some issues with the RME 802 software.
The Slate support is heavenly, never had such a friendly helping hand. For example Waves or Apple only help if I pay again and again.
My hope is that future updates of the Raven find ways implant LogicX deeper -,changing the DAW is optional. Studio One for example is touch screen ready. The only issue is. Do I want to work with one window only.
I keep you guys informed about my Slate Raven journey with LogicX.
So far the Raven is not a bummer….
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