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Post by christopher on Jun 1, 2021 13:53:54 GMT -6
I think keep experimenting with getting the acoustic to null against the mic. Could try same distance from face but horizontal aimed at ceiling or angled away from acoustic and sing over the top? Might be tough without a heavy duty stand. Any other LDCs or SDCs? Could try using one in XY back to back to possibly create a fig8 null, so you still get the flea on vocals.
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shawnh
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by shawnh on Jun 1, 2021 14:13:31 GMT -6
Personally find that vocal bleed into the mic(s) on the guitar is a lot more problematic than vice versa. Can usually get the guitar to sound nice even with lots of bleed. But if I get too much vocal bleed into the guitar mic you can hear that phasing/comb filtering on the lead vocal and it's impossible to fix. So far my solution is either to use figure 8 on the guitar or use a SDC pointed almost straight down away from the singers mouth. Neither is perfect but I'm usually just using that mic to fill in the guitar sound and balance. Keeping the vocal out of that mic is important. I have used figure 8 on the vocal mic too - but I seem to generally prefer the sound of cardoid on the lead vocal.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 1, 2021 14:15:31 GMT -6
I often do this in mono one cardioid mic reaches my face but also the top of the Frame Edge of the Guitar. Sounds good to me. But I am one of those who thinks that one mono mic in close in front of any acoustic doesn’t do the trick even though pointing at the frame edge can work for me sometimes... Conversely, I'm of the belief that multi-micing acoustic guitar sounds fake. Just like micing the guitar too damn close.
I also generally take lead vocal seperately. That way there's no problems with overdubs, or the occasional replacement.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jun 1, 2021 14:54:26 GMT -6
That's not what I said ... I said I would do it different .... the recording is fine... No worries. I assume something is being lost in translation. Even then, everyone has different tastes. 😁 I personally love the Mono vocal/guitar thing, I really like the energy, the imperfections. When I do the one mic thing, I tend to try to focus on the vocal and I don't mind the fact that at times the guitar gets a tiny bit lost. When I'm writing I always set up just one mic about a foot and 1/2 away and sing and play into it for hours and I like that kind of sound, there's something intimate and more fragile than multimicing everything. This is me improvising stuff earlier today on one mic, excuse the gibberish, sloppy playing ( I'm making it up as a go along) and the heavy handed FX it's not really meant to be heard by anyone but me but what I like about this kind of recording is the guitar finds its place naturally behind the vocals. For demos it's great, it takes literally like 20 seconds to set up. www.dropbox.com/s/tsamgcxz69rbxjn/ONE%20MIC%20.mp3?dl=0
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 1, 2021 15:35:32 GMT -6
I often do this in mono one cardioid mic reaches my face but also the top of the Frame Edge of the Guitar. Sounds good to me. But I am one of those who thinks that one mono mic in close in front of any acoustic doesn’t do the trick even though pointing at the frame edge can work for me sometimes... Conversely, I'm of the belief that multi-micing acoustic guitar sounds fake. Just like micing the guitar too damn close.
I also generally take lead vocal seperately. That way there's no problems with overdubs, or the occasional replacement.
Ok maybe I had a cool mono situation in a nice Tracking room but the good sounding spot was 1.5 meters away from the guitar. Tracking @home always is a compromise to me. Last but not least I think 80% is the player. I often do a few takes most often the best performance is the winning track.... And yes I track as long as I am happy with the results....
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2021 17:18:28 GMT -6
My main room here is really unflattering to acoustic guitars, I hear that. The big untreated rooms are much nicer. I'm thinking more reflections are a good thing, or just size.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 1, 2021 20:33:46 GMT -6
I use a KM84 pointed down at the sound hole, and a U47 pointed up at the singer like this photo. But I've also had luck with the vocal mic pointed up slightly and the guitar mic underneath a reflexion filter. Got that idea from Ryan Freeland who used it with Ray LaMontagne on God Willin & The Creek Don't Rise (see below)
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 1, 2021 20:44:13 GMT -6
I’ve seen Ryan Freeland also set up a pair of M49’s in a V shape at 45 degree angles with the point aimed at about the singers neck. Bottom mic points down at the acoustic and the vocal mic points up towards the mouth. Works out well but you’ve really got to have your guitar playing and singing on the same page.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 1, 2021 21:03:27 GMT -6
I’ve seen Ryan Freeland also set up a pair of M49’s in a V shape at 45 degree angles with the point aimed at about the singers neck. Bottom mic points down at the acoustic and the vocal mic points up towards the mouth. Works out well but you’ve really got to have your guitar playing and singing on the same page. Like an x/y but turned sideways?
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Post by rowmat on Jun 1, 2021 22:08:33 GMT -6
While using two mics, one for the guitar and the other for the vocal and keeping each mic close to its own source to minimise bleed from the other source seems logical, I still think many are often creating problems rather than just going with a single mic or, in the case of stereo, a single point source. Although I’ve had good success with both cardioids and figure 8 mics in a separate two mic singer/guitarist setup, not all mics work well. Figure 8 condensers do not null particularly well as the frequency rises. In a nutshell ribbons rule for nulling. Also the poor off axis phase response of most cardioid mics result in colouration in any off axis signals even before they are combined with the other mic. Using a Coles 4038 for vocals and keeping the guitar in the null combined with a KM84 pointing slightly downward toward the lower half of the body near the bridge (not at the neck) along with phase aligning both signals in the DAW has worked the best so far in terms of sonics. The Coles nulls the guitar extremely well and although KM84 still captures far more vocal than the Coles does guitar, the off axis sound of the KM84 is not awful and time aligning both tracks helps keep the combined signal focused. However the catch is when using two separate mics you are invariably creating the need to mic both close to the source and frankly I’m not generally a fan of very close mic’d singer/guitarist recordings. That requirement ceases to exist when using a single mic (or single point stereo) and you back off the mic and allow the mic to capture the entire performance with some space to breathe. Find a good space, step back a couple of feet, take a decent quiet preamp with plenty of gain and turn the sucker UP! I estimate this is around 24-30” between the Flea 47 and singer. And this guy...
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Post by wiz on Jun 2, 2021 1:35:57 GMT -6
I have done a lot of this sort of stuff....
I find one of two ways the best for me...
One mic.. .positioned a couple of feet away, and height balancing the guitar against the vocal.
Here is one I did U87 in card.
This one is U87 fig 8 on vocals. Rode NTR (active rib fig 8) on acoustic, with nulls at opposing source.
With the second method the nulls of the fig 8s kill the bleed enough, and with Music Rebalance from Izotope, I can actually reduce it even more, with very little sonic penalty... enough that I can actually pan the acoustic fully left, and have the vocal centre...
as in this video, the guitar and vocal tracked at the same time with the 87 and NTR.
For this task, acoustic and vocal at same time.. I think two fig 8s are the best working set up...
Also I think the NTR is a great sleeper piece of gear...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 2, 2021 7:36:08 GMT -6
I have done a lot of this sort of stuff.... I find one of two ways the best for me... One mic.. .positioned a couple of feet away, and height balancing the guitar against the vocal. Here is one I did U87 in card. This one is U87 fig 8 on vocals. Rode NTR (active rib fig 8) on acoustic, with nulls at opposing source. With the second method the nulls of the fig 8s kill the bleed enough, and with Music Rebalance from Izotope, I can actually reduce it even more, with very little sonic penalty... enough that I can actually pan the acoustic fully left, and have the vocal centre... as in this video, the guitar and vocal tracked at the same time with the 87 and NTR. For this task, acoustic and vocal at same time.. I think two fig 8s are the best working set up... Also I think the NTR is a great sleeper piece of gear... cheers Wiz Hey wiz, love hearing the 3 versions. Great stuff. I'm actually looking into grabbing an 87 specifically for this purpose, so extra relevant in my case. Any chance that I could hear the isolated tracks for Ship of My Heart? I'd love to hear how much bleed this actually kills.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jun 2, 2021 14:54:59 GMT -6
I've tried different things out and some work out better than others. The one issue I've had with movers and certain multi mic setups is phasing sounds on the vocal. Comparing a later take where the vocal was overdubbed, the sound was much more solid.
There is something to be said for a nice enough mic placed well to get it all in one. Very phase-coherent you could say.
Here is a song I did August last year with my then girlfriend and her friend. He writes great tunes and we convinced him to record one with us. He is very modest and doesn't regard himself as much more than a bedroom player.
The basic setup was two Soyuz 013s L+R on his nylon guitar, and a Neumann TLM 170 on his vocal. Another TLM 170 back several feet in a nice room. Everything else overdubbed.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jun 2, 2021 15:59:27 GMT -6
One tune I recorded this past Feb, for a stream we did here at my joint back then.
1 mic, but it is a Josephson C700S !
That said, I do this all the time, usually with a 87, 67,, or a good ribbon, It's wonderful once you set the balance between the vocal and guitar.
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Post by wiz on Jun 2, 2021 17:24:51 GMT -6
I have done a lot of this sort of stuff.... I find one of two ways the best for me... One mic.. .positioned a couple of feet away, and height balancing the guitar against the vocal. Here is one I did U87 in card. This one is U87 fig 8 on vocals. Rode NTR (active rib fig 8) on acoustic, with nulls at opposing source. With the second method the nulls of the fig 8s kill the bleed enough, and with Music Rebalance from Izotope, I can actually reduce it even more, with very little sonic penalty... enough that I can actually pan the acoustic fully left, and have the vocal centre... as in this video, the guitar and vocal tracked at the same time with the 87 and NTR. For this task, acoustic and vocal at same time.. I think two fig 8s are the best working set up... Also I think the NTR is a great sleeper piece of gear... cheers Wiz Hey wiz , love hearing the 3 versions. Great stuff. I'm actually looking into grabbing an 87 specifically for this purpose, so extra relevant in my case. Any chance that I could hear the isolated tracks for Ship of My Heart? I'd love to hear how much bleed this actually kills. The ship of your heart was for Facebook, I didn't keep the project.. Next time I track something I will upload it for you bud. Cheers Wiz
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 2, 2021 17:34:41 GMT -6
Hey wiz , love hearing the 3 versions. Great stuff. I'm actually looking into grabbing an 87 specifically for this purpose, so extra relevant in my case. Any chance that I could hear the isolated tracks for Ship of My Heart? I'd love to hear how much bleed this actually kills. The ship of your heart was for Facebook, I didn't keep the project.. Next time I track something I will upload it for you bud. Cheers Wiz Thanks brother.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2021 10:37:08 GMT -6
Here's another one of those one mic acoustic vocal examples, think I posted this in another thread, but it's more relevant here. I probably should have moved closer to the mic. It's a $200 Aurycle mic I repaired for a friend, into a Motu M4, in my small kind of dead sounding room. Added some Sunset Sound ISO booth for a little more space. www.dropbox.com/s/gde2n8ejgsdj947/126%20comes%20a%20time%20AURYCLE%202.flac?dl=0
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 28, 2021 1:28:10 GMT -6
Put a small (kinda) rock wool panel in between my 47 and 67 when recording this way, just wrapped it up in cloth and put it on a stand. There’s quite a difference in the 1-2k (maybe not that low) and up region. The acoustic bleeding into the 47 is significantly darker. Perhaps a step in the right direction although the panel is kind of in front of my face and may take some getting used to Lol.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jun 28, 2021 21:12:58 GMT -6
Just step up and do it!
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Post by gwlee7 on Jun 29, 2021 5:45:30 GMT -6
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Post by timcampbell on Jun 29, 2021 9:26:00 GMT -6
Maybe try something as simple as take a pop filter, tape a piece of carboard or washcloth to it, put it on a microphone stand with an arm and slide it in as a barrier between the 2 mics. Also align them so the weakest part of the polar patterns face each other.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 29, 2021 12:20:29 GMT -6
I love the Flea and I love the EV RE series, the problem I see here is they are both the kind of flavors that will fight to be out front in the mix. If it was an either the Flea or EV I would be happy I just see it getting messy as they are both going to be picking up everything and that shared space is going to get messy. I would suggest this buy another EV use one EV on vocals one on AC and mic the room with the Flea. My hunch is position won’t be as big a deal mix will be easy ( that’s the thing with the EV RE they play pretty nice together ) the Flea will add body and the room. It’s cheaper than 2 Fleas!
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 29, 2021 12:43:39 GMT -6
I have done a lot of this sort of stuff.... I find one of two ways the best for me... One mic.. .positioned a couple of feet away, and height balancing the guitar against the vocal. Here is one I did U87 in card. This one is U87 fig 8 on vocals. Rode NTR (active rib fig 8) on acoustic, with nulls at opposing source. With the second method the nulls of the fig 8s kill the bleed enough, and with Music Rebalance from Izotope, I can actually reduce it even more, with very little sonic penalty... enough that I can actually pan the acoustic fully left, and have the vocal centre... as in this video, the guitar and vocal tracked at the same time with the 87 and NTR. For this task, acoustic and vocal at same time.. I think two fig 8s are the best working set up... Also I think the NTR is a great sleeper piece of gear... cheers Wiz Jesus man, your stuff always sounds great. It’s hard to say which is better, single mic or two figure 8’s on your voice/gtr. I would say for your particular voice and style it would vary song my song, they both sound great. Also, that u87 really fits your voice nicely.
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Post by wiz on Jun 29, 2021 16:58:48 GMT -6
I have done a lot of this sort of stuff.... I find one of two ways the best for me... One mic.. .positioned a couple of feet away, and height balancing the guitar against the vocal. Here is one I did U87 in card. This one is U87 fig 8 on vocals. Rode NTR (active rib fig 8) on acoustic, with nulls at opposing source. With the second method the nulls of the fig 8s kill the bleed enough, and with Music Rebalance from Izotope, I can actually reduce it even more, with very little sonic penalty... enough that I can actually pan the acoustic fully left, and have the vocal centre... as in this video, the guitar and vocal tracked at the same time with the 87 and NTR. For this task, acoustic and vocal at same time.. I think two fig 8s are the best working set up... Also I think the NTR is a great sleeper piece of gear... cheers Wiz Jesus man, your stuff always sounds great. It’s hard to say which is better, single mic or two figure 8’s on your voice/gtr. I would say for your particular voice and style it would vary song my song, they both sound great. Also, that u87 really fits your voice nicely. Thanks man cheers Wiz
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shawnh
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Posts: 58
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Post by shawnh on Jul 1, 2021 6:57:15 GMT -6
Here are a couple of single mic examples I've done - I'm constantly experimenting on the vocal/acoustic setup. A lot of the time I like this 1 mic setup the best.
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