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Post by OtisGreying on May 31, 2021 22:53:50 GMT -6
Flea 47 is on vocals, I have an RE-16 on acoustic.
I found the RE-16 to work better on acoustics than my Stam 67 because of the focus and dynamic control the RE-16 offers.
Problem is I get quite a bit of bleed from the ACS into the Flea 47 vocal track, and when I get too close to the 47 to perhaps drown out the ACS there is too much proximity affect in the vocal, it sounds best about 8 -10 inches away from the mouth. I play sitting down.
I'm wondering if I should just try another dynamic mic on vocals, but it kindove kills me that I wouldnt be able to make use of my great sounding Flea. The bleed from ACS is muddying up the vocal take however and I'm looking for any tips on this.
I did just find a video of Paul McCartney recording blackbird, not sure if it was the actual session, but theres only what looks like a dynamic mic (some Neumann I think) in front of his mouth and one at his feet, nothing in front of the guitar. Which is interesting. Maybe they overdubbed his blackbird riff after the fact? I can't figure that one out cause I hear only 1 guitar in the beginning 45 seconds of the record.. But how could they get a decent ACS track with no mic at the guitar? Hmm
Anyway, I'm curious how you guys approach this vocal-acoustic at the same time thing. Thanks!
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Post by bricejchandler on May 31, 2021 23:29:53 GMT -6
I record a lot of vocals and acoustics at the same time and I don't have one set technique.
What I often do is just live with the bleed, I try to get the acoustic to sound good in the vocal mic and vice versa, a lot easier to do when you're recording somebody else though. Often the vocal mic ends up being like 80% of the sound and the acoustic mic is usually there to add a little low end definition to the guitar.
If I want to get separation, there are a couple ways I've been successful.
- If you want to use the Flea, try putting it in Omni and singing right up on the microphone, you'll still get the vibe of the Flea but not the overwhelming 47 proximity effect.
- Using 2 figure 8 mics with the nulls canceling the vocals or the acoustic is a tried and tested technique, I've done this sometimes with AEA N22s, 67s and got good results.
- Using dynamic mics for both vocals and acoustic. I often do the M88 on vocals and M201 on the acoustic. The SM7 can also sound amazing on the right acoustic guitar. SM7 and EV RE mics are great too for vocals. When doing this, I'll still setup an LDC or a ribbon about a foot away or more from the singer to get some depth. It helps gel the dynamics together.
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Post by rowmat on May 31, 2021 23:30:01 GMT -6
Why not just use the Flea on its own and find the sweet spot where both vocal and guitar are balanced?
More often than not I prefer a single mic or M/S or Blumlein for stereo to avoid the bleed, off axis coloration and phase issues typical of multiple separated mics.
Here’s kind of what I’m referring to using a single Flea 47 although the mic is mostly focused on the vocal in this example and the guitar is both a little too far away and a little too off axis.
However better mic positioning would have improved the balance.
The trick is not to mic too close and allow some space to capture both vocal including the both the singer’s chest and the entire body of the guitar.
This does require a decent sounding room (better if you have some space).
Try 18” to 24” and then crank the shit out of the preamp to suck in the whole sonic picture.
A while ago I used a single Coles 4038 to capture vocal and a nylon string mic’d from about 30” away. It did require plenty of gain but it sounded far more natural than using separate mics on the vocal and guitar.
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Post by mrholmes on May 31, 2021 23:53:23 GMT -6
Flea 47 is on vocals, I have an RE-16 on acoustic.
I found the RE-16 to work better on acoustics than my Stam 67 because of the focus and dynamic control the RE-16 offers.
Problem is I get quite a bit of bleed from the ACS into the Flea 47 vocal track, and when I get too close to the 47 to perhaps drown out the ACS there is too much proximity affect in the vocal, it sounds best about 8 -10 inches away from the mouth. I play sitting down.
I'm wondering if I should just try another dynamic mic on vocals, but it kindove kills me that I wouldnt be able to make use of my great sounding Flea. The bleed from ACS is muddying up the vocal take however and I'm looking for any tips on this.
I did just find a video of Paul McCartney recording blackbird, not sure if it was the actual session, but theres only what looks like a dynamic mic (some Neumann I think) in front of his mouth and one at his feet, nothing in front of the guitar. Which is interesting. Maybe they overdubbed his blackbird riff after the fact? I can't figure that one out cause I hear only 1 guitar in the beginning 45 seconds of the record.. But how could they get a decent ACS track with no mic at the guitar? Hmm
Anyway, I'm curious how you guys approach this vocal-acoustic at the same time thing. Thanks!
I often do this in mono one cardioid mic reaches my face but also the top of the Frame Edge of the Guitar. Sounds good to me. But I am one of those who thinks that one mono mic in close in front of any acoustic doesn’t do the trick even though pointing at the frame edge can work for me sometimes...
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Post by OtisGreying on May 31, 2021 23:58:47 GMT -6
I record a lot of vocals and acoustics at the same time and I don't have one set technique. What I often do is just live with the bleed, I try to get the acoustic to sound good in the vocal mic and vice versa, a lot easier to do when you're recording somebody else though. Often the vocal mic ends up being like 80% of the sound and the acoustic mic is usually there to add a little low end definition to the guitar. If I want to get separation, there are a couple ways I've been successful. - If you want to use the Flea, try putting it in Omni and singing right up on the microphone, you'll still get the vibe of the Flea but not the overwhelming 47 proximity effect. - Using 2 figure 8 mics with the nulls canceling the vocals or the acoustic is a tried and tested technique, I've done this sometimes with AEA N22s, 67s and got good results. - Using dynamic mics for both vocals and acoustic. I often do the M88 on vocals and M201 on the acoustic. The SM7 can also sound amazing on the right acoustic guitar. SM7 and EV RE mics are great too for vocals. When doing this, I'll still setup an LDC or a ribbon about a foot away or more from the singer to get some depth. It helps gel the dynamics together. Solid suggestions, unfortunately I have the cardioid only Flea and no figure 8 mics, *sigh*. I just tried facing my guitar slightly away from the flea and repositioning the flea's back to face the guitar more and front to face up slightly, it seemed to help. Also standing up may help as there will be more distance I figure.
I guess my other option is to buy a second dynamic mic to accompany my RE-16. Perhaps SM7, or another RE mic. I used the RE on vocals and was surprised that the vocals sounded really solid so I may just have to go that route if I can't manage.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 1, 2021 0:02:14 GMT -6
Using only the Flea is an interesting idea but I prefer the sound of a dedicated mic for ACS in the blend. Bizarrely enough however, I've been watching this video of McCartney record blackbird and theres only a mic at his mouth and one at his feet. Not sure how that worked cause the guitar sounds so seperated and well mic'd from the vocal in the record, and it sounds like theres only 1 gtr in the verses which would have to be whatever bled into the vocal mic and mic at his foot. Maybe he had a different set up when he actually cut the take used in the record. Or maybe I can't see the mic thats at the gtr....
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Post by rowmat on Jun 1, 2021 0:09:00 GMT -6
Using only the Flea is an interesting idea but I prefer the sound of a dedicated mic for ACS in the blend. Bizarrely enough however, I've been watching this video of McCartney record blackbird and theres only a mic at his mouth and one at his feet. Not sure how that worked cause the guitar sounds so seperated and well mic'd from the vocal in the record, and it sounds like theres only 1 gtr in the verses which would have to be whatever bled into the vocal mic and mic at his foot. Maybe he had a different set up when he actually cut the take used in the record. Or maybe I can't see the mic thats at the gtr....
I think you’ll find the floor mic is just to pick up his foot tapping. The main mic looks like a Neumann KM56 in Omni or figure 8 mode but I think more likely in Omni. en-de.neumann.com/km-56The upper capsule is capturing the vocal as McCartney is singing over the top of it while the lower capsule is pointing down at the guitar but I can’t really hear any drop off in level as McCartney is moving his head about which would probably be more likely in figure 8 mode so my money is it’s in Omni.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jun 1, 2021 0:15:54 GMT -6
I would try with 2 dynamics, that's what they did a ton in the 60s. The RE series were used a lot for exactly this.
On the final blackbird recording there's a mic on the acoustic for that kind of separation. On the remastered version the guitar is panned hard right and I can't see how that would be possible with just one mic.
One thing that also really helps for this kind of recording is having the right guitar. I'm not saying that's something you should look into but I've seen it so many times were someone comes in, wants to record ac and vocals simultaneously but then whisper their vocals while playing a super loud Martin. Finding the right guitar, volume and frequency wise that complements one's vocals is the most important thing.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 1, 2021 0:17:02 GMT -6
Using only the Flea is an interesting idea but I prefer the sound of a dedicated mic for ACS in the blend. Bizarrely enough however, I've been watching this video of McCartney record blackbird and theres only a mic at his mouth and one at his feet. Not sure how that worked cause the guitar sounds so seperated and well mic'd from the vocal in the record, and it sounds like theres only 1 gtr in the verses which would have to be whatever bled into the vocal mic and mic at his foot. Maybe he had a different set up when he actually cut the take used in the record. Or maybe I can't see the mic thats at the gtr....
I think you’ll find the floor mic is just to pick up his foot tapping. The main mic looks like a Neumann KM56 in Omni or figure 8 mode but I think more likely in Omni. en-de.neumann.com/km-56The upper capsule is capturing the vocal as McCartney is singing over the top of it while the lower capsule is pointing down at the guitar but I can’t really hear any drop off in level as McCartney is moving his head about which would probably be more likely in figure 8 mode so my money is it’s in Omni. But how could that be when the acoustic is panned to the right on the record? Pauls voice sits center, guitar right, footstep left. It's especially obvious in the 2018 mix of blackbird.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 1, 2021 0:21:00 GMT -6
I think you’ll find the floor mic is just to pick up his foot tapping. The main mic looks like a Neumann KM56 in Omni or figure 8 mode but I think more likely in Omni. en-de.neumann.com/km-56The upper capsule is capturing the vocal as McCartney is singing over the top of it while the lower capsule is pointing down at the guitar but I can’t really hear any drop off in level as McCartney is moving his head about which would probably be more likely in figure 8 mode so my money is it’s in Omni. But how could that be when the acoustic is panned to the right on the record? Pauls voice sits center, guitar right, footstep left. It's especially obvious in the 2018 mix of blackbird. I was referring to this YouTube video which is mono and likely just a ruff rehearsal take. How the actual album version was recorded and mixed is another thing.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 1, 2021 0:27:19 GMT -6
I would try with 2 dynamics, that's what they did a ton in the 60s. The RE series were used a lot for exactly this. On the final blackbird recording there's a mic on the acoustic for that kind of separation. On the remastered version the guitar is panned hard right and I can't see how that would be possible with just one mic. One thing that also really helps for this kind of recording is having the right guitar. I'm not saying that's something you should look into but I've seen it so many times were someone comes in, wants to record ac and vocals simultaneously but then whisper their vocals while playing a super loud Martin. Finding the right guitar, volume and frequency wise that complements one's vocals is the most important thing. I may pick up another RE, or an SM7. Or even some sort of small rockwool panel to fit inbetween the mics, I've seen that before, maybe it works.
Funny cause I do use a martin, triple 0 though so it isn't the worst for recording I guess.
Now you can imagine how much trouble I was having with a 47, 67, and a martin trying to get things to sound right, Lol.
I think standing up increasing the distance is worth a shot too.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 1, 2021 0:30:01 GMT -6
But how could that be when the acoustic is panned to the right on the record? Pauls voice sits center, guitar right, footstep left. It's especially obvious in the 2018 mix of blackbird. I was referring to this YouTube video which is mono and likely just a ruff rehearsal take. How the actual album version was recorded and mixed is another thing. That's what I figured too. It must not be the actual session, I was hoping it was so I could try and steal some technique but the seperation in the real record suggests otherwise.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 1, 2021 0:58:17 GMT -6
Why not just use the Flea on its own and find the sweet spot where both vocal and guitar are balanced? More often than not I prefer a single mic or M/S or Blumlein for stereo to avoid the bleed, off axis coloration and phase issues typical of multiple separated mics. Here’s kind of what I’m referring to using a single Flea 47 although the mic is mostly focused on the vocal in this example and the guitar is both a little too far away and a little too off axis. However better mic positioning would have improved the balance. The trick is not to mic too close and allow some space to capture both vocal including the both the singer’s chest and the entire body of the guitar. This does require a decent sounding room (better if you have some space). Try 18” to 24” and then crank the shit out of the preamp to suck in the whole sonic picture. A while ago I used a single Coles 4038 to capture vocal and a nylon string mic’d from about 30” away. It did require plenty of gain but it sounded far more natural than using separate mics on the vocal and guitar. By the way rowmat, I loved that song and singer. Really nice. Should have more views.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 1, 2021 5:22:04 GMT -6
I also have a Flea47 and haven't found a great way to make it work. Often, if I'm trying to do acoustic and vocal together, I'm trying to capture video too and don't want the 47 right in the performers grill. I've been looking into a pair of figure 8 mics specifically for this reason.
I recorded my intern here with the 47 out front enough to get a decent blend of both and slipped in the mk012 close to the acoustic to fill out the body. Luckily, as a singer, he's got enough push to pull this off.
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Post by gouge on Jun 1, 2021 5:31:15 GMT -6
Id pick your best card condenser mic and position it to balance guitar and vox a foot or so away and just run with that. Track it in mono.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2021 6:25:06 GMT -6
The single mic position I learned to start with is capsule at about ear level, about 2 feet out from the mouth. Obviously you might have to finesse it with the specific performer, but it's a good starting point with a single cardioid. The two videos posted are good examples. No idea what's going on with that mccartney thing. You can never trust a video, really, nor a photo.
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Post by gouge on Jun 1, 2021 6:30:48 GMT -6
I also have a Flea47 and haven't found a great way to make it work. Often, if I'm trying to do acoustic and vocal together, I'm trying to capture video too and don't want the 47 right in the performers grill. I've been looking into a pair of figure 8 mics specifically for this reason. I recorded my intern here with the 47 out front enough to get a decent blend of both and slipped in the mk012 close to the acoustic to fill out the body. Luckily, as a singer, he's got enough push to pull this off. just got to hear this now. loved it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2021 7:28:29 GMT -6
I once corresponded with producer/engineer Nathaniel Kunkel regarding the recording of Lyle' Lovette's "Road to Ensenada". He told me they used a black U67 for vocals and a Tele C24 on guitar. There was bleed of course. He clearly chose them to work as a pair, and I believe that won the album of the year Grammy. Here's Ryan Adams tracking with a U-47 and I think a 414. The mics seem close to me, but it obviously works beautifully if you know his recordings well. I think it's just a matter of getting the sound you like first and then forget about bleed, get a good sound in the cans and focus on performance. Thinking of Adams, have a listen here, I think it's a dynamic on vocal and a 414 on guitar, live. I'd take that performance even if it could be technically recorded better. I find it difficult to get the playing and vocal I want simultaneously, so I usually end up recording acoustic separately. I hope to do more solo acoustic tracks soon and will try some mic combos just to see.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 1, 2021 7:28:51 GMT -6
I also have a Flea47 and haven't found a great way to make it work. Often, if I'm trying to do acoustic and vocal together, I'm trying to capture video too and don't want the 47 right in the performers grill. I've been looking into a pair of figure 8 mics specifically for this reason. I recorded my intern here with the 47 out front enough to get a decent blend of both and slipped in the mk012 close to the acoustic to fill out the body. Luckily, as a singer, he's got enough push to pull this off.
He tries hard, but I like it COOL...
But it represents exactly what I mean we don't hear an acoustic guitar close with one mic in real life. Ok I play guitar myself a lot, but it does not sound like a guitar to my ears.... it's a very narrow spot...
even though this can be cool....but most often picks up much unwanted things too... body resonances, pick noise etc.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2021 7:42:07 GMT -6
They're not too worried about bleed here I think ;-)
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 1, 2021 9:45:31 GMT -6
They're not too worried about bleed here I think ;-) Another point is noticing how both Chris Stapleton and Ryan Adams leave room for their vocal. Most amateur players step all over their own vocal part, strumming like mad. In my opinion this is 80% of the battle.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 1, 2021 10:17:20 GMT -6
I also have a Flea47 and haven't found a great way to make it work. Often, if I'm trying to do acoustic and vocal together, I'm trying to capture video too and don't want the 47 right in the performers grill. I've been looking into a pair of figure 8 mics specifically for this reason. I recorded my intern here with the 47 out front enough to get a decent blend of both and slipped in the mk012 close to the acoustic to fill out the body. Luckily, as a singer, he's got enough push to pull this off.
He tries hard, but I like it COOL...
But it represents exactly what I mean we don't hear an acoustic guitar close with one mic in real life. Ok I play guitar myself a lot, but it does not sound like a guitar to my ears.... it's a very narrow spot...
even though this can be cool....but most often picks up much unwanted things too... body resonances, pick noise etc.
...recording sucks...noted.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 1, 2021 10:31:23 GMT -6
He tries hard, but I like it COOL...
But it represents exactly what I mean we don't hear an acoustic guitar close with one mic in real life. Ok I play guitar myself a lot, but it does not sound like a guitar to my ears.... it's a very narrow spot...
even though this can be cool....but most often picks up much unwanted things too... body resonances, pick noise etc.
...recording sucks...noted. I thought it sounded excellent, but what do I know?
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 1, 2021 10:55:47 GMT -6
He tries hard, but I like it COOL...
But it represents exactly what I mean we don't hear an acoustic guitar close with one mic in real life. Ok I play guitar myself a lot, but it does not sound like a guitar to my ears.... it's a very narrow spot...
even though this can be cool....but most often picks up much unwanted things too... body resonances, pick noise etc.
...recording sucks...noted. That's not what I said ... I said I would do it different .... the recording is fine...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 1, 2021 11:32:22 GMT -6
...recording sucks...noted. That's not what I said ... I said I would do it different .... the recording is fine... No worries. I assume something is being lost in translation. Even then, everyone has different tastes. 😁
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