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Post by mrholmes on May 4, 2021 10:07:43 GMT -6
I am working since Jan. on my own songs, special because my singing becomes a stable habit, that motivates me a lot.
Tracking acoustic guitar during corona at home, without help from someone who does this for a living, is still a challenge after 15 years. In other words... how to get a great acoustic sound when your room sucks - special when you know all the weak points.
After hours of work I ignored all rules .... 3:1 rule etc. 12 fret thing or 14 fret things or the way Albini is doing it....
I had the feeling the more I know, the less I trust my instincts... I was frustrated.
After a round of meditation I started to place the mics without just by instinct.
I placed the UMT 70 on the neck @ 1 frt and the 184 on the bridge angled to the 12 fret across the guitar top .... both mics are about 11 inches away from the guitar.
To my surprise it's not out of phase, but it should be by textbook.
Ok may there is a slight nice delay, but it fits the song idea. The most surprising fact is ....this stereo mic position seems to cancel out a lot of the weak points in my room.
In other words I surprised myself with a great acoustic guitar sound in a non-professional environment. I should trust my instincts....
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Post by Tbone81 on May 4, 2021 10:24:09 GMT -6
I think acoustics are rather hard to record, especially in poor rooms (like mine). It’s even a harder when you’re recording yourself. I gave up on the “rules” awhile ago. I just listen on headphones and move the mic around till it sounds good. It’s often in a spot that I would never think to use. And the mic position will vary greatly from mic to mic and a guitar to guitar.
For me the the rules like, 12th fret, where the neck meets body etc etc are just rough started points and nothing more.
Sounds like you figured out a great combination for your room/guitar etc so I say roll with it and forget the rest.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 4, 2021 10:28:57 GMT -6
Trust your ears: period!  |
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Post by stormymondays on May 4, 2021 11:48:21 GMT -6
I've never found a good reason to record an acoustic guitar in stereo, or with more than one mic. I'm sure you have tried that but maybe it's worth trying that again and compare with your current best sound?
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Post by nudwig on May 4, 2021 12:05:30 GMT -6
I haven't had the best of luck with traditional stereo but I do like 2 mics, one close, one far enough for some ambience and to not cause phase issues. With multiple acoustic parts I'll pan the close/far opposite each other. Very room dependent but feels natural when it works.
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Post by M57 on May 4, 2021 12:20:52 GMT -6
I've never found a good reason to record an acoustic guitar in stereo, or with more than one mic. I prefer the sound of two "different" mics on an acoustic in a 1+1 recording. These days it's a SDC somewhere between the upper bout and soundhole, and an LDC "over the shoulder." I think the image better compliments the center-panned vocal. There's give and take to be sure. Sometimes, it's just too dense. Other times phase related issues might bother me, so I'll throw the faders around in search of a sweet spot and adjust the panning accordingly. Just an amateur at home here ..so feel free to be judgmental  |
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Post by mrholmes on May 4, 2021 12:24:08 GMT -6
I've never found a good reason to record an acoustic guitar in stereo, or with more than one mic. I'm sure you have tried that but maybe it's worth trying that again and compare with your current best sound?
I would agree on this one, but it makes the impression when the mics capture more of the -not so great room sound- a lot of the problems which I have usually in MONO are even out. Not only that, but I have no idea why, but I can prove it.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 4, 2021 12:29:42 GMT -6
If it works it works
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934 
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Post by ericn on May 4, 2021 12:49:54 GMT -6
All I was going to say is do the prep work of finding the spot that balances room sound/ comfort/ and room noise, but it seams you don’t need me.
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Post by mrholmes on May 4, 2021 13:07:56 GMT -6
All I was going to say is do the prep work of finding the spot that balances room sound/ comfort/ and room noise, but it seams you don’t need me.
Fresh input is always welcome..... BTW noise I stopped to care about it.
In your song is very low level a car horn - YES I KNOW....
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on May 4, 2021 13:35:35 GMT -6
All I was going to say is do the prep work of finding the spot that balances room sound/ comfort/ and room noise, but it seams you don’t need me.
Fresh input is always welcome..... BTW noise I stopped to care about it.
In your song is very low level a car horn - YES I KNOW....
Yeah, that’s why it’s always about balance, a horn or something is no big deal, but for instance I could never record where I am sitting because of the constant rumble of HVAC and the sound of the neighbors small kids. |
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Post by popmann on May 4, 2021 19:39:27 GMT -6
I will just point out that it's always easier to get two mics hard L+R to sound "better" on an acoustic guitar OR acoustic piano....AND....you need to collapse them, because that can be a nasty surprise. The phase difference can cancel some stuff and make it seem big and wide....but, end of the day, what they sound like in mono is what's going to translate outside headphones.
So, all I'm saying....is I don't think this is a new discovery--it can sound nicer for a background part that it doesn't matter if it's not front and center in translation.....but, check the mono. Make sure at the least it doesn't leave ugly resonances.
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Post by rowmat on May 4, 2021 20:41:28 GMT -6
I’ll often record acoustics in M/S after first finding the sweet spot for the mid mic on its own.
For instance if an acoustic opens a song on its own and then other instruments are introduced after the intro I will often use stereo micing on the intro but then revert to mono guitar (maybe then panned depending on the other instruments) once the other instruments come in.
M/S has less phase issues than other stereo micing techniques and can be dialled in just enough to create a sense of the guitar being in real space without sounding too ‘stereo’ if you get my drift.
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Post by EmRR on May 4, 2021 20:55:46 GMT -6
MS here too usually if stereo is called for. Often up/down instead of L/R. I need to try some more classical style AB omni.
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Post by theshea on May 4, 2021 23:01:02 GMT -6
tried m/s not too long ago and yes: to me its the way to go for ac git. but only if stereo is required. think singer songwriter song/intro with only voice and guitar.
otherwise for me mono mic on ac git always wins.
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Post by reddirt on May 5, 2021 6:38:52 GMT -6
FWIW, I'll aim to get the conventionally "main" mic sounding as right as I can and then stick up a 2nd in fig 8 (with the null working in with the main mic) which could even be a quasi over right shoulder or wherever; if it's a sparse arrangement stereo can be a good listen. But as Popmann says always check in mono.
As to M/S, it can often sound great but if your track is played through a mono set up, the great guitar sound is negated through the sides cancelling and the balance in the track can be cruelled depending on how loud you had the now cancelled sides.
It's a moving feast I find
Cheers, Ross
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Post by mrholmes on May 5, 2021 9:45:14 GMT -6
I will just point out that it's always easier to get two mics hard L+R to sound "better" on an acoustic guitar OR acoustic piano....AND....you need to collapse them, because that can be a nasty surprise. The phase difference can cancel some stuff and make it seem big and wide....but, end of the day, what they sound like in mono is what's going to translate outside headphones. So, all I'm saying....is I don't think this is a new discovery--it can sound nicer for a background part that it doesn't matter if it's not front and center in translation.....but, check the mono. Make sure at the least it doesn't leave ugly resonances.
Right they cancel out the bad stuff. I call this a compromise....
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Post by askomiko on May 5, 2021 12:03:49 GMT -6
Omni mic close (one foot) to the sound hole. Should be horrible but it isn't. At least always.
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Post by mrholmes on May 5, 2021 17:59:27 GMT -6
Omni mic close (one foot) to the sound hole. Should be horrible but it isn't. At least always. You are kidding me? Everything thats pointing direct to hole sounds mehhhh? But not an Omni pattern? |
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Post by mrholmes on May 5, 2021 18:00:25 GMT -6
Double post.
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Post by askomiko on May 6, 2021 1:14:53 GMT -6
Directional mic pointing at the hole has the potential for extra mud and being too close increases the mud even more, which is why sticking mics there is generally frowned upon. (That sentence feels very dirty.) But since an omni doesn't point anywhere, it just sits there having fun. And since it doesn't have proximity effect it can be quite close and not hear the problematic room too much, and since it's omni, the player moving an inch doesn't ruin everything. Omnis are small, omnis are fun, I like omnis, la la laaa. <3
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Post by mrholmes on May 6, 2021 2:37:17 GMT -6
Directional mic pointing at the hole has the potential for extra mud and being too close increases the mud even more, which is why sticking mics there is generally frowned upon. (That sentence feels very dirty.) But since an omni doesn't point anywhere, it just sits there having fun. And since it doesn't have proximity effect it can be quite close and not hear the problematic room too much, and since it's omni, the player moving an inch doesn't ruin everything. Omnis are small, omnis are fun, I like omnis, la la laaa. <3 You talk SDC Omnis? |
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Post by jpanderson80 on May 7, 2021 13:01:57 GMT -6
To the OP: Do your thing. If it works it works, especially for the song.
In a nice room, omnis are great fairly often. Large or small diaphragms.
I like M/S approach for AGTR due to the flexibility available later in a sparse mix. In a denser mix, the single mic approach is fine. In a denser mix, the acoustic guitar is often only needed as an ear tickle just to remind the listener. Whatever the song needs.
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Post by rowmat on May 7, 2021 13:15:36 GMT -6
M/S will obviously accentuate a bad sounding room and you need to be careful not to make the instrument too wide.
Remember a guitar is around 3 feet wide when being played in front of a mic.
Not 6 feet or as wide as the entire room.
Using too much side channel will also result in a larger changes in tone when converted to mono.
I think they are the main issues that people sometimes have with M/S.
In a nutshell don’t overdo it.
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Post by mrholmes on May 15, 2021 15:32:27 GMT -6
To the OP: Do your thing. If it works it works, especially for the song. In a nice room, omnis are great fairly often. Large or small diaphragms. I like M/S approach for AGTR due to the flexibility available later in a sparse mix. In a denser mix, the single mic approach is fine. In a denser mix, the acoustic guitar is often only needed as an ear tickle just to remind the listener. Whatever the song needs.
Thanks for your words.
It's crazy, because I can repeat it over and over again. The whole guitar sounds more like a representation of what goes on with the guitar + room connection when I go with AB stereo. I have lesser trouble with the sound in AB I just have to EQ 3-4 resonant spots and some basic EQ for the usual body air pressure ø 100 Hz + 200 Hz.
When I go in mono I never find a spot that represents the guitar room connection in a way I want it for this song. And I did try hard - different mics different mic preamp combinations.... just sounds wrong... not like the guitar.
And hell again I screw the 3:1 rule it's in phase, when I ignore the rule?
I have no idea why its out of phase when I follow the rule.....
Maybe the room who knows.... it's crazy....
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