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Post by stormymondays on May 4, 2021 6:30:38 GMT -6
I confess: For the last few years I’ve been high passing everything at 42 Hz or higher, and it has served me well. Almost no one will be able to reproduce the bottom octave, I gain headroom for the mix, and the lows are controlled. Vinyl records never had any low end below 40-50 Hz anyway!
However, there’s always a trade-off for everything. I think this can make mixes smaller, and it can also make you pile on the lows on the 40-100 range and make life difficult for small speakers. So I’m going to go a new way and try to not use the HPF as a matter of fact, and also take time to sculpt that bottom octave instead of glossing over it.
What’s your take on this? Do you HPF everything? Nothing? What’s your low cut-off?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 8:05:01 GMT -6
I HPF everything. Kicks at least at 40-60 depending on the tuning and how fast they are being played to eliminate buildup. Bass, the same. Maybe even higher and distort it to keep it away from the kick. Sometimes you want to use a very gradual filter higher up to keep some lower bass but eliminate build ups and rumble. This more tightens the bass up.
“Sculpting” the low low end is more for synthesized bass tones and electronic music than acoustic drums. It’s far easier to just change the mic or place it differently. I always thought sculpting was more for the upper bass and low mids. I’m not even sure how well the low Low end even translates given the typical playback system with over 100% THD in the low end. Most electronic producers who do that, it’s never going to be heard outside their studio and the moment the bodies are on the dance floor, it’s gone. So it tends to be very broad on a studio sub. Then you have the bedroom guys who are doing tons of little eq on a pair of closed or planar headphones (Audeze, Hifiman) and there’s pretty much zero translation of those little eq moves to a sub or a speaker system with big conventional woofers. They’re just guessing for the most part. Most of the systems that have the detail to play back bass textures are no fun to listen to the typical electronic production on too.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on May 4, 2021 8:14:20 GMT -6
Yes, I hpf to taste, if I solo a aux and here nothing , I raise the hpf till I am actually cutting freq, then I switch back and forth between solo and the mix , again to taste.
I definitely do bass and drums/kick differently too hear both clearly, but it’s a trade off.
I like to think, what do I want the low end to most focus on or balance?
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Post by javamad on May 4, 2021 8:14:24 GMT -6
I HPF the kick bus/drums at 25 Bass at 50 Guitars at 90 (mostly) Vocals at 90 (mostly) FX at 120 Synths …. depends
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Post by stormymondays on May 4, 2021 8:23:42 GMT -6
"Sculpting" the bottom octave was probably a wrong choice of word. A better explanation would be deciding who gets to fill it, why and how. This is all in a rock/americana/folk rock context, by the way. Nothing electronic.
I'm beginning to thing the phase shift introduced by HPF is more detrimental than I thought.
Very interested in knowing your HPF strategies and preferences still!
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Post by svart on May 4, 2021 8:33:41 GMT -6
Hpf everything. Using small amounts of distortion creates harmonics in upper octaves that reinforce the tone we hear.
Create enough of those harmonics and you can remove the fundamental frequency altogether and still "hear" it.
Look up the "missing fundamental" effect.
You can make small speakers sound like they're playing notes lower than they're physically capable of this way.
It's how things like Rbass work.
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Post by drumsound on May 4, 2021 8:40:22 GMT -6
I'm not very dogmatic about it. I probably should hi pass more things than I do.
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Post by EmRR on May 4, 2021 9:05:01 GMT -6
On pretty much everything but pretty conservatively, always below the fundamentals until proven otherwise. Guitars seem to be what gets higher settings than anything else.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 4, 2021 10:03:32 GMT -6
I’ll throw the strange monkey wrench into this discussion, what type of HPF slope are you using?
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Post by Tbone81 on May 4, 2021 10:18:24 GMT -6
I hi pass most tracks but started doing it mostly on busses instead of individual instruments. So I’ll hi pass all the guitars, but on the guitar bus, all vocals on the vocal bus etc etc. I used to do it on individual tracks but I ran across phase issues between instruments, especially on low end instruments like kicks.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 4, 2021 10:50:36 GMT -6
Most things get it. Gentle usually 6dB or 12dB at most. Unless it's something that just doesn't need that crap like a vocal or guitar track then i'll be more agressive.
I always pick what goes down there and how much. Everything else gets a treatment of some kind by HPF.
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Post by stormymondays on May 4, 2021 11:40:53 GMT -6
Hpf everything. Using small amounts of distortion creates harmonics in upper octaves that reinforce the tone we hear. Create enough of those harmonics and you can remove the fundamental frequency altogether and still "hear" it. Look up the "missing fundamental" effect. You can make small speakers sound like they're playing notes lower than they're physically capable of this way. It's how things like Rbass work. That's been my modus operandi so far, and it works. HPF, harmonics, use the missing fundamental effect for smaller speakers. Now I wonder if I can have my cake and eat it too, and get the same results with less phase shift and with some instruments with no HPF. I’ll throw the strange monkey wrench into this discussion, what type of HPF slope are you using? Whatever is in the Console 1 SSL 4000E emulation. Probably 12 db/oct?
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Post by Guitar on May 4, 2021 12:17:50 GMT -6
High pass everywhere, not on literally every channel, but in many places as needed. Special care taken on high passing the bass instruments, or the mix.
Final high pass for the 2 bus, or a mastering session. This can often be between 0 and 50 Hz. If you don't hear it, that's good. But you might hear your mix open up, more clarity, even a tiny bit more volume from lightening the load on the limiter. It's good to do this with something that can be set at any value, like a digital EQ, or something with low values on a switch, like Dangerous BAX which often ends up at 37 Hz. This shouldn't make your mix smaller at all, just free it from the emotional baggage it was dragging around so it can dance on the speakers. It's more like turning off background noise, some train that passes by every time you hit play, so you can hear your mix more clearly.
I tend to mix with a good amount of bass so this is common practice for me. Maybe not for someone who cuts lows aggressively in a mix. Maybe if you high pass your bass instruments every time you could skip this step also. I like to get it done on the mix bus, as a final all catching stage.
Slopes can vary, whatever sounds the best. Sometimes shallow, sometimes extremely steep. That old listening thing again.
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Post by drumsound on May 4, 2021 13:26:01 GMT -6
I’ll throw the strange monkey wrench into this discussion, what type of HPF slope are you using? Often I use the free BX cleansweep. I looks aggressive, but doesn't sound aggressive. I don't remember the value. Other times I use the EQ7 one band, and I will mess with the slope there. On some EQs I'll use the filters if they are there, like SonEQ, StonEQ4k, and even TDR Slick EQ. High pass everywhere, not on literally every channel, but in many places as needed. Special care taken on high passing the bass instruments, or the mix. Final high pass for the 2 bus, or a mastering session. This can often be between 0 and 50 Hz. If you don't hear it, that's good. But you might hear your mix open up, more clarity, even a tiny bit more volume from lightening the load on the limiter. It's good to do this with something that can be set at any value, like a digital EQ, or something with low values on a switch, like Dangerous BAX which often ends up at 37 Hz. This shouldn't make your mix smaller at all, just free it from the emotional baggage it was dragging around so it can dance on the speakers. It's more like turning off background noise, some train that passes by every time you hit play, so you can hear your mix more clearly. I tend to mix with a good amount of bass so this is common practice for me. Maybe not for someone who cuts lows aggressively in a mix. Maybe if you high pass your bass instruments every time you could skip this step also. I like to get it done on the mix bus, as a final all catching stage. Slopes can vary, whatever sounds the best. Sometimes shallow, sometimes extremely steep. That old listening thing again. The mixes emotional baggage. BRILLIANT.
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Post by EmRR on May 4, 2021 15:01:32 GMT -6
I’ll throw the strange monkey wrench into this discussion, what type of HPF slope are you using? Mainly 12, bass or kick may get 24 or 36 closer to fundamental, sometimes 6 in mix follows a conservative 12 in tracking. Only once under duress have I ever high passed a mix.
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Post by schmalzy on May 4, 2021 15:02:49 GMT -6
Hpf everything. Using small amounts of distortion creates harmonics in upper octaves that reinforce the tone we hear. Create enough of those harmonics and you can remove the fundamental frequency altogether and still "hear" it. Look up the "missing fundamental" effect. You can make small speakers sound like they're playing notes lower than they're physically capable of this way. It's how things like Rbass work. That's been my modus operandi so far, and it works. HPF, harmonics, use the missing fundamental effect for smaller speakers. Now I wonder if I can have my cake and eat it too, and get the same results with less phase shift and with some instruments with no HPF. I’ll throw the strange monkey wrench into this discussion, what type of HPF slope are you using? Whatever is in the Console 1 SSL 4000E emulation. Probably 12 db/oct? I'm often using the Console 1 American Class A hpf. They seem super gentle, though. I prefer the C1 SSL filter but prefer the sound of the American Class A, Summit, or British Class A strips. I hpf my mixes around 30. 6db/oct with ReaEQ in Reaper. It's the first thing on my master bus. Lowest sound source doesn't get a hpf on the channel (but gets the filter on the whole mix) Next sound source up gets a filter somewhere around 60. Often it's a bass guitar/synth and it's the slightly resonant filter from the Kush Electra plugin. Everything else gets hpf as high as I can go before I hear it remove something I want.
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Post by jmoose on May 4, 2021 16:16:07 GMT -6
I'm beginning to thing the phase shift introduced by HPF is more detrimental than I thought. Absolutely that can happen. Phase smear from overlapping bands that makes everything sound weird and tiny. Best to use the same EQ/filter with the same slope on everything but even then... I don't high pass that much of anything. Only as needed when needed. I'll kill the flub & rumble when I have to otherwise..? Its never automatic here. IMO this is a more recent "trend" in recording that didn't really occur years ago. Back in the days of transformer coupled gear and analog tape all that subsonic junk was automatically filtered out by the circuits themselves. These days, with digital recording and the widespread use of transformerless gear... people plugging condenser mics right into an interface that records everything from DC to light? Then mixing in the box? High passing seems way more common. Sometimes I'll get stuff to mix where there's an obvious room rumble in vocals or acoustic guitars... Otherwise its more of an old school creative choice. Backing vocals? Guitar solo? Something that needs to sit up vertically in the mix? Might roll that all the way up to 400 cycles. But slamming filters at 30 or 40Hz on every track just because? Never!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 4, 2021 16:49:29 GMT -6
Hpf everything. Using small amounts of distortion creates harmonics in upper octaves that reinforce the tone we hear. Create enough of those harmonics and you can remove the fundamental frequency altogether and still "hear" it. Look up the "missing fundamental" effect. You can make small speakers sound like they're playing notes lower than they're physically capable of this way. It's how things like Rbass work. That's been my modus operandi so far, and it works. HPF, harmonics, use the missing fundamental effect for smaller speakers. Now I wonder if I can have my cake and eat it too, and get the same results with less phase shift and with some instruments with no HPF. I’ll throw the strange monkey wrench into this discussion, what type of HPF slope are you using? Whatever is in the Console 1 SSL 4000E emulation. Probably 12 db/oct? This why I asked about what Slope, a -6db per octave slope should have minimal phase shift, but your going to have a very gentle roll off.
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Post by EmRR on May 4, 2021 18:14:14 GMT -6
The better the shock mounts, the less need for hpf's.
The more you compress, the more you need hpf's....and shock mounts.
The smaller and less treated the recording environment, the more hpf's may fix things.
DI's are notorious for huge subsonic junk from guitarists and bassists beating on the instrument.
Yes, tape is an automatic steep hpf, but lower than many people are talking about here. Are the tape sim's doing that? I've never used one.
I'm almost always through 1940-1950's preamps, and that stuff goes way lower than tape ever did. These late 1930's RCA's I've been using are flat to 12Hz, -1dB at 10Hz.
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Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2021 18:42:03 GMT -6
If I've said this once I've said it a million times :
Although an HPF is a filter circuit, it is NOT part of the eq section of the console, and it's not intended for tone control. It's intended to nuke LF noise.
You need to EQ the signal? Use your EQ - it's what it's there for and generally a lot more precise, control-wise.
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Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2021 18:45:27 GMT -6
That's been my modus operandi so far, and it works. HPF, harmonics, use the missing fundamental effect for smaller speakers. Now I wonder if I can have my cake and eat it too, and get the same results with less phase shift and with some instruments with no HPF. Whatever is in the Console 1 SSL 4000E emulation. Probably 12 db/oct? This why I asked about what Slope, a -6db per octave slope should have minimal phase shift, but your going to have a very gentle roll off. Erm, given the intended purpose for the HPF, I would be surprised if most were not far more drastic. Min 12 dB, 18 and 24 not uncommon.
At least on traditional console-type channels.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 19:26:31 GMT -6
The better the shock mounts, the less need for hpf's. The more you compress, the more you need hpf's....and shock mounts. The smaller and less treated the recording environment, the more hpf's may fix things. DI's are notorious for huge subsonic junk from guitarists and bassists beating on the instrument. Yes, tape is an automatic steep hpf, but lower than many people are talking about here. Are the tape sim's doing that? I've never used one. I'm almost always through 1940-1950's preamps, and that stuff goes way lower than tape ever did. These late 1930's RCA's I've been using are flat to 12Hz, -1dB at 10Hz. U-he Satin, the best one, does but I still need to high pass at 15 ips.
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Post by Ward on May 5, 2021 6:20:41 GMT -6
It's great to open RGO and find a wonderful reality driven thread!! LOL . . . HPF is vitally necessary for many applications. I tend to HPF Bass at 31-35 Kick at 29 Floor Toms at 40-60 Overheads and room mics at 60 - 100 Guitars at 100 Vocals at 80 Synths at anywhere from 40-100 Not always, but I like to clean things up for the very reasons pointed out here. And johneppstein is correct about knowing the differences!
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Post by jaba on May 5, 2021 12:50:31 GMT -6
Working with remote recordings and tracks from elsewhere I'll typically throw some HPF around 50Hz on most things save for bass and drums (usually DMG Equilibrium at 18dB), then it's much more case by case. Band with drums + drum loop + bass + synth? HPF can really help along with regular EQ. Stuff tracked at the studio - API and often hitting tape before being transferred to digital - tends to need less, though I will often use those on the board.
Also a big fan of LPHs but that's for another thread!
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 5, 2021 14:02:16 GMT -6
I filter the top and bottom of pretty much every track in my sessions. Often filtering lows much more than most of you here. Ward saying he filters something at 29Hz is funny as hell to me. He's at 29 and I'm probably at 100.
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