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Post by gouge on Apr 10, 2021 17:26:59 GMT -6
I know its not considered cool but If i were mixing this tune i would autotune the vocals
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Post by bradd on Apr 10, 2021 19:00:45 GMT -6
Ouch!
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Post by gouge on Apr 10, 2021 20:26:46 GMT -6
Dont take it the wrong way. I like the performance just a few flat moments here and there that would respond well to auto tune and have the effect of tightening things up.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 11, 2021 5:13:27 GMT -6
Thanks for all the great input. The recommendation to listen to Beck's Sea Change for a different perspective was a great one. That album sounds amazing and huge. I think I need to find a happy place between that and August and Everything After. The attached track is the one that started this thread. I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out. I welcome your thoughts. soundcloud.com/user-614129848/this-placeBrad Sounds really nice, I'm getting strong Elton John vibes. You did get some big tones, certainly. The only thing that might be a little too big still, IMO, is the bass guitar. Maybe it's these headphones but it's way out front for such a supportive part, I would just turn it down a dB or two.
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Post by bradd on Apr 11, 2021 9:04:42 GMT -6
Thanks folks. I agree that the bass needs to come down. Listened to the vocals again and don’t really hear anything flat, but I’ll tune it and see if it’s better.
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Post by Ward on Apr 11, 2021 9:38:18 GMT -6
The VERY first thing I do before mixing is HPF *everything* except the kick and bass. Lordy, please don’t tell Eppstein. Some of us learned from JJP that you HPF the bass and kick as well. The bass at 35hz and the kick at 29-30hz, IMEX. It's freaking magical.
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Post by srb on Apr 11, 2021 13:35:02 GMT -6
Lordy, please don’t tell Eppstein. Some of us learned from JJP that you HPF the bass and kick as well. The bass at 35hz and the kick at 29-30hz, IMEX. It's freaking magical. Got a couple big sessions coming up so I'll give it a whirl! Thanks!
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 11, 2021 13:35:56 GMT -6
For sure. High pass and clean it up!
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Post by Guitar on Apr 11, 2021 13:50:05 GMT -6
Lordy, please don’t tell Eppstein. Some of us learned from JJP that you HPF the bass and kick as well. The bass at 35hz and the kick at 29-30hz, IMEX. It's freaking magical. I do this all the time now. Cleaning up your subs can actually make your tracks louder, from headroom not being sucked away by inaudible frequencies. Highly recommended and still very bassy when you set them right.
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Post by bradd on Apr 11, 2021 14:55:34 GMT -6
I typically do that as well, but didn’t on this one. I’m going to do another mix with HPF on kick and bass.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 11, 2021 20:03:12 GMT -6
Typically many get things backwards it comes to 'big' versus 'small' sounding recordings. Don't be fooled that playing/singing loudly equals sounding big and playing/singing softly equals small in the context of a mix. Typically this results in exactly the opposite.
Strum or pick an acoustic guitar really hard and you will end up with a predominately percussive midrange which leaves the low end and other body resonances and harmonics buried and a thinned out tone.
As an artist sings more loudly the mids tend to dominate over the lows with a similar results as the throat begins to dominates the chest. The harder you push the more the tone thins out as can miking too close to an instrument.
If you listen to the plucked acoustic guitar passages on much of Seachange the guitar sounds big because the guitar is played quite softly with the gain cranked up to compensate.
This allows the lows and body resonances of the guitar to balance better with the mids and not be overpowered by the mids which happens the harder you play.
That along with allowing space for the instrument in the mix and appropriate use of EQ and verb is why albums like 'Seachange' sound big.
So play/sing with less force, back off the mic a little (which allows the mic to pick more of the entire instrument creating a larger sonic picture of the instrument), crank up the pre and try it for yourself.
I don't want to sound patronising to those who know this is obvious but you'd be surprised how many audio guys I know who seem to miss this completely.
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Post by Ward on Apr 12, 2021 8:17:58 GMT -6
I typically do that as well, but didn’t on this one. I’m going to do another mix with HPF on kick and bass. LPF them both at 10K or even lower as well. Like another called just said, no sense wasting audio real estate on something that isn't even audible.
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Post by bgrotto on Apr 12, 2021 14:44:48 GMT -6
Typically many get things backwards it comes to 'big' versus 'small' sounding recordings. Don't be fooled that playing/singing loudly equals sounding big and playing/singing softly equals small in the context of a mix. Typically this results in exactly the opposite.
Strum or pick an acoustic guitar really hard and you will end up with a predominately percussive midrange which leaves the low end and other body resonances and harmonics buried and a thinned out tone.
As an artist sings more loudly the mids tend to dominate over the lows with a similar results as the throat begins to dominates the chest. The harder you push the more the tone thins out as can miking too close to an instrument.
If you listen to the plucked acoustic guitar passages on much of Seachange the guitar sounds big because the guitar is played quite softly with the gain cranked up to compensate.
This allows the lows and body resonances of the guitar to balance better with the mids and not be overpowered by the mids which happens the harder you play.
That along with allowing space for the instrument in the mix and appropriate use of EQ and verb is why albums like 'Seachange' sound big.
So play/sing with less force, back off the mic a little (which allows the mic to pick more of the entire instrument creating a larger sonic picture of the instrument), crank up the pre and try it for yourself.
I don't want to sound patronising to those who know this is obvious but you'd be surprised how many audio guys I know who seem to miss this completely.
Yes yes yes! This is the good stuff, right here. Wish I could convince more musicians of this fact (especially drummers, who all too often seem to use hitting hard for some sort of proxy for dick size).
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Post by rowmat on Apr 12, 2021 15:53:34 GMT -6
Typically many get things backwards it comes to 'big' versus 'small' sounding recordings. Don't be fooled that playing/singing loudly equals sounding big and playing/singing softly equals small in the context of a mix. Typically this results in exactly the opposite.
Strum or pick an acoustic guitar really hard and you will end up with a predominately percussive midrange which leaves the low end and other body resonances and harmonics buried and a thinned out tone.
As an artist sings more loudly the mids tend to dominate over the lows with a similar results as the throat begins to dominates the chest. The harder you push the more the tone thins out as can miking too close to an instrument.
If you listen to the plucked acoustic guitar passages on much of Seachange the guitar sounds big because the guitar is played quite softly with the gain cranked up to compensate.
This allows the lows and body resonances of the guitar to balance better with the mids and not be overpowered by the mids which happens the harder you play.
That along with allowing space for the instrument in the mix and appropriate use of EQ and verb is why albums like 'Seachange' sound big.
So play/sing with less force, back off the mic a little (which allows the mic to pick more of the entire instrument creating a larger sonic picture of the instrument), crank up the pre and try it for yourself.
I don't want to sound patronising to those who know this is obvious but you'd be surprised how many audio guys I know who seem to miss this completely.
Yes yes yes! This is the good stuff, right here. Wish I could convince more musicians of this fact (especially drummers, who all too often seem to use hitting hard for some sort of proxy for dick size). Yep especially drummers. More force is often at the expense of tone/fatness. Sea Change has elicited so many online comments about which mics and pres were used in order to capture such a big sound. Beck’s vocals, the guitars, drums, percussion etc are all quite gently delivered. That’s mostly the reason more than which pre etc.
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 12, 2021 17:22:57 GMT -6
Typically many get things backwards it comes to 'big' versus 'small' sounding recordings. Don't be fooled that playing/singing loudly equals sounding big and playing/singing softly equals small in the context of a mix. Typically this results in exactly the opposite.
Strum or pick an acoustic guitar really hard and you will end up with a predominately percussive midrange which leaves the low end and other body resonances and harmonics buried and a thinned out tone.
As an artist sings more loudly the mids tend to dominate over the lows with a similar results as the throat begins to dominates the chest. The harder you push the more the tone thins out as can miking too close to an instrument.
If you listen to the plucked acoustic guitar passages on much of Seachange the guitar sounds big because the guitar is played quite softly with the gain cranked up to compensate.
This allows the lows and body resonances of the guitar to balance better with the mids and not be overpowered by the mids which happens the harder you play.
That along with allowing space for the instrument in the mix and appropriate use of EQ and verb is why albums like 'Seachange' sound big.
So play/sing with less force, back off the mic a little (which allows the mic to pick more of the entire instrument creating a larger sonic picture of the instrument), crank up the pre and try it for yourself.
I don't want to sound patronising to those who know this is obvious but you'd be surprised how many audio guys I know who seem to miss this completely.
Indeed. Try bass DI this way if you want a really clear example. I barely touch the strings if I want a huge low end. The harder I hit, the less low end comes through. It's sort of paradoxical but really it makes sense to me now. So many instruments also sound their best anyway when not played hard. That's when a lot of gross stuff happens.
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Post by Ward on Apr 13, 2021 12:30:13 GMT -6
Yes yes yes! This is the good stuff, right here. Wish I could convince more musicians of this fact (especially drummers, who all too often seem to use hitting hard for some sort of proxy for dick size). Kind of like lift kits and 36" tires? My boys call trucks like that 'SPI's (small penis indicators)
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2021 13:52:24 GMT -6
This is something I've been struggling with in a recent mix. I wanted everything to be big. Big acoustics. Big vocals. Big strings. But was having a hell of a time trying to get separation between instruments, giving each their own space in the mix. So, if everything is "big", is then that counterproductive? Do you run out of space in the mix for each instrument if they are all big? If all is "big" then nothing is big, just crowded. There must be something for a comparison reference.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2021 13:57:40 GMT -6
. There wasn't all that much bass going on in PA systems 30+ years ago, nothing like today. Now EVERY system has capacity for too much bass. Sez you. I can think of PA systems from club to coliseum tht don't fit that at all. On the 1980 Black and Blue tour we had 100,000 watts on the big shows.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 13, 2021 14:40:59 GMT -6
Sez you. I can think of PA systems from club to coliseum tht don't fit that at all. On the 1980 Black and Blue tour we had 100,000 watts on the big shows.
Yes and those are the outliers.....like yourself!
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Post by thecolourfulway on Apr 13, 2021 16:30:27 GMT -6
bradd - please do NOT auto tune that vocal!
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Post by bradd on Apr 13, 2021 20:00:47 GMT -6
bradd - please do NOT auto tune that vocal! Thanks. I’m torn on tuning. I’ve never been big on it. I feel like if it needs to be tuned, I should retrack the vocal. I tried it with tuning this weekend and really didn’t notice a big difference.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 20:50:12 GMT -6
0) tune drums higher. 1) Gently high pass filter everything. You want tight bass, not no bass unless you're Prince or making And Justice For All. You don't need a ton of low bass energy for acoustics kicks and bass. That stuff should be there but rolled off. 20-30 khz what? How many systems can play it back cleanly? Not a lot. How many domestic rooms can even take a lot of 40-50hz energy without being overwhelmed or making things a bit pillowy for lack of a better word? 2) EQ out mud and cardboard 3) Compress. Actually compress. Do not use dysfunctional digital compressors that leave icepicks behind because their detectors are too aliased or smoothed to catch the transients. Back in the day, you would have to use a limiter or clipper in addition to a digital compressor. Now you have good digital compressors. Use them!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 20:59:15 GMT -6
Typically many get things backwards it comes to 'big' versus 'small' sounding recordings. Don't be fooled that playing/singing loudly equals sounding big and playing/singing softly equals small in the context of a mix. Typically this results in exactly the opposite.
Strum or pick an acoustic guitar really hard and you will end up with a predominately percussive midrange which leaves the low end and other body resonances and harmonics buried and a thinned out tone.
As an artist sings more loudly the mids tend to dominate over the lows with a similar results as the throat begins to dominates the chest. The harder you push the more the tone thins out as can miking too close to an instrument.
If you listen to the plucked acoustic guitar passages on much of Seachange the guitar sounds big because the guitar is played quite softly with the gain cranked up to compensate.
This allows the lows and body resonances of the guitar to balance better with the mids and not be overpowered by the mids which happens the harder you play.
That along with allowing space for the instrument in the mix and appropriate use of EQ and verb is why albums like 'Seachange' sound big.
So play/sing with less force, back off the mic a little (which allows the mic to pick more of the entire instrument creating a larger sonic picture of the instrument), crank up the pre and try it for yourself.
I don't want to sound patronising to those who know this is obvious but you'd be surprised how many audio guys I know who seem to miss this completely.
Yes yes yes! This is the good stuff, right here. Wish I could convince more musicians of this fact (especially drummers, who all too often seem to use hitting hard for some sort of proxy for dick size). Depends on how they are recorded. Dead room close miced drums will get a ton of stick strike and usually needs compression to not have just the stick hitting the head come through in the mix. Primarily overheads or Glynn Johns, which I prefer if the drummer can play, I want them to hit the shells hard and cymbals lighter.
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Post by bradd on Apr 14, 2021 18:13:32 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Apr 15, 2021 7:25:16 GMT -6
I would dial back those filters a little bit, there's a little bit of telephone sound happening now. It's a nice balance though, feels 'together', I think this is a step in the right direction. Even though you said you were done, haha, sorry.
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