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Post by EmRR on Apr 5, 2021 12:52:08 GMT -6
Well you’re referencing a different era, everything was thinner. Somewhat to do with vinyl, somewhat to do with trends in power amps and speakers, car radio, etc. We push so much more power to speakers now, and the majority of power is eaten by bass. Then there’s what things should sound like on an iphone sitting on a table..... Didn't even think about the speakers. So I guess even in studios it was an issue? Would they get intermodulation distortion and all that jazz more quickly with low end? They run out of power. What the studios had doesn't matter, they had the power. The consumer and the PA systems did not. If you want a lot of loudness out of a PA system, kill the bass, save the power for volume at higher registers. There wasn't all that much bass going on in PA systems 30+ years ago, nothing like today. Now EVERY system has capacity for too much bass.
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 5, 2021 12:56:45 GMT -6
Didn't even think about the speakers. So I guess even in studios it was an issue? Would they get intermodulation distortion and all that jazz more quickly with low end? They run out of power. What the studios had doesn't matter, they had the power. The consumer and the PA systems did not. If you want a lot of loudness out of a PA system, kill the bass, save the power for volume at higher registers. There wasn't all that much bass going on in PA systems 30+ years ago, nothing like today. Now EVERY system has capacity for too much bass. I understand. It was the power of end user systems and PAs etc. So they mixed to the end medium (or some did)
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Post by drbill on Apr 5, 2021 13:56:01 GMT -6
bradd - things that will help - in order of importance for me. 1. Arrangement, arrangement, ARRANGEMENT!!! 2. LESS stereo tracks. More mono. 3. Choose what track(s) you want big, and make the rest smaller 4. HPFiltering is your friend
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Post by srb on Apr 5, 2021 14:09:28 GMT -6
bradd - things that will help - in order of importance for me. 1. Arrangement, arrangement, ARRANGEMENT!!! 2. LESS stereo tracks. More mono. 3. Choose what track(s) you want big, and make the rest smaller 4. HPFiltering is your friend Ding, ding, ding!
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Post by Chad on Apr 5, 2021 14:39:51 GMT -6
Also, what role does compression play in making things bigger? Doesn't compression make things smaller? That's been my experience as well, Indie.
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Post by drbill on Apr 5, 2021 15:33:53 GMT -6
bradd - things that will help - in order of importance for me. 1. Arrangement, arrangement, ARRANGEMENT!!! 2. LESS stereo tracks. More mono. 3. Choose what track(s) you want big, and make the rest smaller 4. HPFiltering is your friend Ding, ding, ding! wai.....wait!!!!........do I win something?
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Post by gwlee7 on Apr 5, 2021 15:50:32 GMT -6
wai.....wait!!!!........do I win something? Respect is about the only thing I can afford. 😂
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Post by gwlee7 on Apr 5, 2021 15:52:35 GMT -6
A lot of this can be solved by mixing as you go, if you find your tracking things to big to fit well in a mix or help spot to much LF build up. Do you have a certain order you like to do this? My first inclination would be to get the drums right, then bass, and then work my way towards the vocals. But, I am just guessing.
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Post by popmann on Apr 5, 2021 18:43:33 GMT -6
Look at what you compared: pre loudness wars recordings.
I can almost assure you that's what this is about. The original loudness war in the 70s was about INCREASING the RIAA zone's PEAK information--so, using compressors (NOT LIMITERS) to increase that 700hz-2khz peak information or whatever the range that the RIAA curve didn't touch---boosting that in mixing for calrity and a loud vinyl cut.
In digital delivery, loudness comes from the OPPOSITE--lookahead limiters remove those peaks...and people use multibands and fancy shit liek Soothe to remove every sticky outy anything in that range. Midrange is the devil of digital loudness and the angel of vinyl loudness.
Side effect of that is that by removing the middle AND limiting...you just make everything huge and bloated. If you do that for all/most components in your mix...that's what you get--and easy DR6....AND...depth of field and a lot of TONE is gone.
I've said before that this "mastering as balance revisionist" ethos is going to do nothing but hurt this generation of engineers. The FACT is--if you have an original master of the The Stranger--or even a CD copy from the 80s...and certainly if you have the recent MFSL SACDs...that's for all intents and purposes, the mix with a touch of contextual spitshine. I grew up learning to mix when the thing (record or CD) you bought in the store BASICALLY WAS the mix. Youth will always want to learn on their own generation's work--but you literally can't HEAR the mixes. You get DR6 masters that you have to GUESS what the mix sounded like. I don't envy that.
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Post by gouge on Apr 5, 2021 19:27:10 GMT -6
I have this problem in all my mixes except simple one mic singer songwriter sessions.
Im trying hard to do a better job. I dont think there is a simple answer but would suggest over compression plays a big part.
If there is no space things sound small. There needs to be contrast. something i was taugbt as a young musician is “Music is the space between the notes.”
I see recording and mixing as creating space. When and what do i eq. Should i expand instead of compress... cant say ive figured it put but thats the path im trying to travel.
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 19:31:41 GMT -6
A lot of this can be solved by mixing as you go, if you find your tracking things to big to fit well in a mix or help spot to much LF build up. Do you have a certain order you like to do this? My first inclination would be to get the drums right, then bass, and then work my way towards the vocals. But, I am just guessing. I always have built a working mix as I go, starting point is really track dependent. I found mixing live on the fly one night stands that vocals and mid range are what people really care about, but in the studio 99.99999% of our stuff starts out with bass and drums so that’s where the mix starts. The thing is you have to understand the mix and the track can and will change, it’s simply a reference point. In the golden old days it was also something to play along with to develop solos, fills etc. with a DAW and recall you also have the ability to have several references mixes at any point, if you build these 100 percent ITB recall and switching from mix to mix is instant!
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 19:38:07 GMT -6
Didn't even think about the speakers. So I guess even in studios it was an issue? Would they get intermodulation distortion and all that jazz more quickly with low end? They run out of power. What the studios had doesn't matter, they had the power. The consumer and the PA systems did not. If you want a lot of loudness out of a PA system, kill the bass, save the power for volume at higher registers. There wasn't all that much bass going on in PA systems 30+ years ago, nothing like today. Now EVERY system has capacity for too much bass. Yeah a lot of old Amp / speaker combos were just poor matches. This had to do as much to do with the speakers as amps. It really wasn’t till the transistor Levinson ML2 and Quad ESL when everybody said “ wait I can design a amp around the speaker I want to drive!” Suddenly we moved to the concert of a system! Before that it was big speakers big amp!
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 19:40:51 GMT -6
bradd - things that will help - in order of importance for me. 1. Arrangement, arrangement, ARRANGEMENT!!! 2. LESS stereo tracks. More mono. 3. Choose what track(s) you want big, and make the rest smaller 4. HPFiltering is your friend Yes DR! I think everybody is under the impression that you film music guys use all stereo tracks, never realizing that it’s fake it with mono and build the image with pan delay and reverb!
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Post by srb on Apr 5, 2021 20:13:22 GMT -6
wai.....wait!!!!........do I win something? Johnny, tell Bill what he's won: It's a two foot canoe and two thousand miles of the ocean of your choice! (and our unfailing respect and admiration). 😃
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 20:17:20 GMT -6
wai.....wait!!!!........do I win something? Johnny, tell Bill what he's won: It's a two foot canoe and two thousand miles of the ocean of your choice! (and our unfailing respect and admiration). 😃 I thought it was a signed silver bullet, but not his silver bullet this one is from Coors.
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Post by srb on Apr 5, 2021 20:40:50 GMT -6
The VERY first thing I do before mixing is HPF *everything* except the kick and bass. I like 75Hz as my starting point. Higher on things that don't require low end content.
I do not record tracks in stereo. I may be taking two tracks of something but it's two mono channels I'm recording.
In most instances, the song I'm working on will suggest which instruments(s) need(s) to be most prominent. Once that's known I make sure the other parts complement that.
I'm an 'all faders' up guy when I start a mix. I don't do drums first, then something else, et cetera. I think it's all about context. Sometimes I do hold my final bass level 'til near the very end of the mix. I mix on a console, so I watch a lot of VU meters. I tend to have my master buss VU's running ~-3 or so until I'm ready to finish up. I then bring the bass up to make the whole mix do a 0 +1 thing. Then I'll tweak everything to taste one last time.
I think in terms of parts a lot and I try to use as few things possible to make those arrangement components work. That said, I do go for more on choruses, bridges, and ramp-ups frequently, but only if it works.
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Post by drbill on Apr 5, 2021 20:41:21 GMT -6
wai.....wait!!!!........do I win something? Johnny, tell Bill what he's won: It's a two foot canoe and two thousand miles of the ocean of your choice! (and our unfailing respect and admiration). 😃 Hahaaaa!! Thanks for the good laugh!!
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Post by drbill on Apr 5, 2021 20:42:20 GMT -6
bradd - things that will help - in order of importance for me. 1. Arrangement, arrangement, ARRANGEMENT!!! 2. LESS stereo tracks. More mono. 3. Choose what track(s) you want big, and make the rest smaller 4. HPFiltering is your friend Yes DR! I think everybody is under the impression that you film music guys use all stereo tracks, never realizing that it’s fake it with mono and build the image with pan delay and reverb! So much film music sucks, so you might be right Eric... Wait - let me revise that and say TV music. Lots of great film music out there - as it generally gets a higher caliber of writer, with actually ENGINEERS mixing it - as opposed to composers overbaking the cake, then mixing it themselves.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Apr 5, 2021 22:20:36 GMT -6
Isn't it all about getting things in their space? Giving room for things, even in dense mixes. I think about that all the time when mixing our stuff. I also go back to the "older" strategies of setting up a few lanes of effects and running multiple parts through them to get some cohesiveness. I have a few hardware inserts and plugin options.
If everything's too big, maybe setup a few effects auxes and run things through those to taste? Gang things together instead of isolation + effects -> full mix where things are not always in context at that point.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 5, 2021 23:31:10 GMT -6
The VERY first thing I do before mixing is HPF *everything* except the kick and bass. Lordy, please don’t tell Eppstein.
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Post by theshea on Apr 6, 2021 2:02:35 GMT -6
its a massive trend/client factor. try mixing everything „small“ and nice than show the client. the response will most certainly be like „sounds like shit, to weak compared to this and this track“. so to me its down to contrast. you can‘t make every track sound big, but you have to make key tracks sound huge.
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Post by jampa on Apr 6, 2021 4:32:46 GMT -6
So much of this is about arraignment. bradd - things that will help - in order of importance for me. 1. Arrangement, arrangement, ARRANGEMENT!!! Came here to be next to say this After this, the engineering hat comes on. Depending on the source files, usually first thing is HPF / subtractive low shelf
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 6, 2021 17:35:42 GMT -6
Yep. All the time. I'm amazed at how my natural inclination is to mix extremely bottom heavy. I overcompensate the bottom end by boosting the subwoofer. I'd say that there's a lot of pro records where I don't hear much difference between if I have the sub turned on or not. Most of their bottom end information is above 100hz it seems. However, when I listen to my mixes I tend to have a huge difference between the sub being on or off. I've noticed a lot that my mix will sound wildly exciting to me in the studio and it'll just be "too much" anywhere else. Yet if I listen to a pro mix anywhere it sounds great no matter what. Interesting that you mention this. When I struggle with the bottom end I exclusively switch to the NS-10s until the bottom end sounds rock solid. The crazy thing is, the NS 10 doesn’t transfers bottom end due to its design. It’s a magic I can’t explain but most often I did cut out extreme lows, it’s more low-mids and residual listening using saturation. It’s always the same, it transports magically on 98% of all systems.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 7, 2021 13:35:51 GMT -6
Think counterpoint and not chords.
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Post by bradd on Apr 10, 2021 14:04:17 GMT -6
Thanks for all the great input. The recommendation to listen to Beck's Sea Change for a different perspective was a great one. That album sounds amazing and huge. I think I need to find a happy place between that and August and Everything After. The attached track is the one that started this thread. I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out. I welcome your thoughts. soundcloud.com/user-614129848/this-placeBrad
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