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Post by sean on Apr 4, 2021 16:47:02 GMT -6
At home I rarely can turn anything up above conversation level and find myself working on headphone more than I’d like to. I have a pair of ATC SCM12 but honestly they need to be turned up louder than I can listen without annoying my wife upstairs.
What are some good smaller powered monitors for low level listening? Powered is a plus because I’ve had to do quiet a bit of mobile recording so having something I can throw up easily in someone’s living room is a plus (not convenient with the ATCs and a Bryston amp)
Staying around or under $2000 new or used is a plus.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 4, 2021 16:49:11 GMT -6
Probably way below your budget but the JBL LSR 305 are good for this. I'd be tempted to shop KRK as well.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 17:21:40 GMT -6
How small? The KRK v6 are pretty big and need to reach a certain volume to sound good. The v4 are mini monitors and sound like it. Both aren’t bad at all. Those new Quested V2104 might be worth checking out. APS Klasik is cool and can’t get loud!
If you want to get super small, powered, and nasty, the Fostex 6301 is all of that and more!
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Post by woofhead on Apr 4, 2021 17:28:18 GMT -6
I have the pelonis model 42 and they are great.Def not loud I use them with and without a sub.The imaging is great even at really low levels and they are very clean for the price.Rack mount small amp 1u
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Post by woofhead on Apr 4, 2021 17:36:00 GMT -6
also the positioning opportunities would be great because you can get them close to you to further promote low listening levels. I have them facing forward most of the time but flip them on the side to face 30 degrees upwards and I move in closer when I need to not disturb others. With the outboard amp and so only speaker cable into the boxes it takes 5 seconds
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Post by sean on Apr 4, 2021 18:18:03 GMT -6
I should say I’m not looking for an Auratone type small check you mix type monitors. Something like the JBL 705P possibly? Never really loved the Neumann KH120A.
The Quested are interesting, maybe PMC Result6? Avoiding DSP seems to be the way to go based on all I’ve read about the JBLs and PMC going down
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 4, 2021 18:22:31 GMT -6
Have you looked at the new Kali in-5, 3 way: they have a new amp, so noise is not an issue, well reviewed, and much cheaper than your budget ?
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 4, 2021 18:43:19 GMT -6
Probably way below your budget but the JBL LSR 305 are good for this. I'd be tempted to shop KRK as well. Any monitor with waveguide is not good, it’s a cheap compromise. The Neumanns, Genelecs etc. they all deliver a false impression in the HF range.
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Post by RealNoob on Apr 4, 2021 20:29:36 GMT -6
Probably way below your budget but the JBL LSR 305 are good for this. I'd be tempted to shop KRK as well. Any monitor with waveguide is not good, it’s a cheap compromise. The Neumanns, Genelecs etc. they all deliver a false impression in the HF range. Interesting. Thanks for the learning
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 0:39:24 GMT -6
Probably way below your budget but the JBL LSR 305 are good for this. I'd be tempted to shop KRK as well. Any monitor with waveguide is not good, it’s a cheap compromise. The Neumanns, Genelecs etc. they all deliver a false impression in the HF range. Agreed. The upper treble is wrong on all of them and it definitely influences mix decisions, even if you have tinnitus. It's not just a tilt, it sounds like hornflare without the benefits of horns, eg volume, projection, and instantaneous transients.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 0:51:36 GMT -6
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Post by reddirt on Apr 5, 2021 1:09:01 GMT -6
Not to diss what any of you gentlemen are saying per se however I'd caution that internet reputations are opinions that might not necessarily be yours; thus I'd advise anybody in the market place to listen to possible options for themselves. Good recordings continue to be made on neumanns , genelecs et al and certainly they cut it as review systems - there is a lot to like about them - footprint / pro vibe / sound (so subjective) etc and in any case your cans are really useful as secondary confirmation if they leave you unsure.
Cheers,Ross
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 5, 2021 1:29:43 GMT -6
Any monitor with waveguide is not good, it’s a cheap compromise. The Neumanns, Genelecs etc. they all deliver a false impression in the HF range. Agreed. The upper treble is wrong on all of them and it definitely influences mix decisions, even if you have tinnitus. It's not just a tilt, it sounds like hornflare without the benefits of horns, eg volume, projection, and instantaneous transients. Yes ...form your hands around your mouth and speak. You get a staind sound. You get that horn character, you get comb filtering too and many more unwanted things. I am not a tech in this field, just have been taught some basics. I always thought it’s me, my inability to mix properly and I fought with Genelec 8040s for over a decade. Till the day experts made jokes in front of many professional AES (including broadcast people) about cheap waveguide designs. I was surprised seeing Neumann doing an 8040 clone with the KH120. I say this was not a design decision they wanted to take over potential Genelec buyers. Mix for 15 minutes on the 8040 and you are extremely tense in your back. Mix for 1 hour on monitors which try to solve the dilemma half the way decent and you are relatively fresh. For strange reason even the stupid NS10 (with some HF taming EQs) lets me stay fresh. For me the Genelec 8040 is a toy, and not a tool. www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/comb-filtering
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 5, 2021 1:38:51 GMT -6
Not to diss what any of you gentlemen are saying per se however I'd caution that internet reputations are opinions that might not necessarily be yours; thus I'd advise anybody in the market place to listen to possible options for themselves. Good recordings continue to be made on neumanns , genelecs et al and certainly they cut it as review systems - there is a lot to like about them - footprint / pro vibe / sound (so subjective) etc and in any case your cans are really useful as secondary confirmation if they leave you unsure. Cheers,Ross Yes they are used in the pro field, and yet they still deliver a false hf range impression due to their design faults. I repeat myself over and over again. Mix on 8040 or KH 120 and switch to RL906 you instinctively know that something is wrong in the 8040 KH120 land. Interesting is that most people don’t even try to AB. This says more about psychology, and why humans stick with the thing they invested into, instead of questioning their investment. It’s like holding stocks forever without a stop loss order.... they will go up again effect....
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Post by Guitar on Apr 5, 2021 4:05:45 GMT -6
I really like the waveguides on the LSR305. I thought the treble was really nice on those, wide sweet spot. The problems, IMO, were more in the bass with that speaker, compared to things that are more high end.
But for a mobile speaker it's totally adequate. Unless you have a higher budget.
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 12:14:24 GMT -6
Probably way below your budget but the JBL LSR 305 are good for this. I'd be tempted to shop KRK as well. Any monitor with waveguide is not good, it’s a cheap compromise. The Neumanns, Genelecs etc. they all deliver a false impression in the HF range. Let’s avoid such blanket statements, while there are plenty of poorly implemented wave guides I’ll remind you plenty of well regarded drivers have wave guides as part of their mounting flanges, the ATC, Volt and Vifa Mid all use small wave guides as well as many Tweets including The Morel’s I’m looking at. They serve a purpose but it always seams the wave guide gets all the blame! The Genelec Tweet was designed around their waveguide, while not my favorite they do a great job in sub par rooms especially small rooms where good treatment just isn’t practical. Just like it’s throaty brother the horn it’s as much about the implementation as anything else. Most inexpensive waveguides suffer from poor dampening or coupling. The example of using ones hands is a great example of a poorly executed waveguide or horn. You really have to spend extra time designing the crossover with a waveguide most don’t seam to do so, often it sounds like the crossover was designed before the waveguide was added and then no tweaking was done after the implementation of the WG! a small targeted WG often solves a problem at a particular frequency. A generic wide bandwidth Waveguide or Horn is indeed problematic ( hey I’ll admit I originally built my reputation with a glue gun used to dampen the hell out of some very popular and cheap horns used in stage wedges and tweaking the crossover!
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 5, 2021 13:40:41 GMT -6
Any monitor with waveguide is not good, it’s a cheap compromise. The Neumanns, Genelecs etc. they all deliver a false impression in the HF range. Let’s avoid such blanket statements, while there are plenty of poorly implemented wave guides I’ll remind you plenty of well regarded drivers have wave guides as part of their mounting flanges, the ATC, Volt and Vifa Mid all use small wave guides as well as many Tweets including The Morel’s I’m looking at. They serve a purpose but it always seams the wave guide gets all the blame! The Genelec Tweet was designed around their waveguide, while not my favorite they do a great job in sub par rooms especially small rooms where good treatment just isn’t practical. Just like it’s throaty brother the horn it’s as much about the implementation as anything else. Most inexpensive waveguides suffer from poor dampening or coupling. The example of using ones hands is a great example of a poorly executed waveguide or horn. You really have to spend extra time designing the crossover with a waveguide most don’t seam to do so, often it sounds like the crossover was designed before the waveguide was added and then no tweaking was done after the implementation of the WG! a small targeted WG often solves a problem at a particular frequency. A generic wide bandwidth Waveguide or Horn is indeed problematic ( hey I’ll admit I originally built my reputation with a glue gun used to dampen the hell out of some very popular and cheap horns used in stage wedges and tweaking the crossover!
I worked with all three monitors which I mentioned, and the two with the single tweeter Waveguide both suffered in the HF range.
I make a big step around those designs.
But hey that's just me and my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 13:46:07 GMT -6
ericn mrholmesBoth Neumann and Genelec use overly complex crossovers now too. They both have the heavily filtered sound that audiophiles frequently call “dead inside” because the sound is inside the speakers and they aren’t good at conveying depth cues. This is the fault of cheaper drivers than the completion eqed more and eating into their headroom, especially the Neumanns, where the limiter kicks in very early on the woofers.
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 14:11:21 GMT -6
Not to diss what any of you gentlemen are saying per se however I'd caution that internet reputations are opinions that might not necessarily be yours; thus I'd advise anybody in the market place to listen to possible options for themselves. Good recordings continue to be made on neumanns , genelecs et al and certainly they cut it as review systems - there is a lot to like about them - footprint / pro vibe / sound (so subjective) etc and in any case your cans are really useful as secondary confirmation if they leave you unsure. Cheers,Ross Yes they are used in the pro field, and yet they still deliver a false hf range impression due to their design faults. I repeat myself over and over again. Mix on 8040 or KH 120 and switch to RL906 you instinctively know that something is wrong in the 8040 KH120 land. Interesting is that most people don’t even try to AB. This says more about psychology, and why humans stick with the thing they invested into, instead of questioning their investment. It’s like holding stocks forever without a stop loss order.... they will go up again effect.... I don’t disagree, they all lack in their implementation, but when I think about all the poorly treated Video rooms with either Genelec or KH that have sounded better than similar rooms with non wave guide monitors I appreciate the guide and it’s pattern control.
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Post by Ward on Apr 5, 2021 16:17:46 GMT -6
Hard to beat the Neumann KH120a's
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Post by sean on Apr 5, 2021 16:37:08 GMT -6
It’s pretty easy to A/B the bigger brands here in the states, but something like Geithain you have to buy and have imported. Those look really interesting but they’d have to be a screamin’ deal to take a chance on them.
I just never really connected with the Neumann’s. Had a set for awhile. Like the little 5” Yamaha’s more, which I’ve considered, but I’d like something a step up from that. It’s a small home mixing space so not really looking to impress clients.
Also, I’ve just read so many horror stories of people with powered speakers with onboard DSP I’d like to stay away from that, which make something like the Quested appealing.
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 17:33:06 GMT -6
Hard to beat the Neumann KH120a's I don’t know I used to think for the $ they were the one to beat, but I’ll admit the fact that they don’t play loud and get ragged before they give out has me rethinking that. The thing is I haven’t found a better solution for the $.
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Post by reddirt on Apr 5, 2021 18:08:19 GMT -6
The neumanns play easy loud enough for the situation the O. P. wants to address
Cheers, Ross
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Post by donr on Apr 5, 2021 18:26:54 GMT -6
Sean, if you really don't want to annoy your wife upstairs, try the Slate VSX headphones as a third option. They do sound like you're in a room with speakers and you can get work done on them. And you can mix at any volume you're comfortable with.
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2021 19:48:58 GMT -6
The neumanns play easy loud enough for the situation the O. P. wants to address Cheers, Ross They probably do, until you put them next to something with a real amp next to them. That’s when you see the limit and hear the strain. Lucky for Neumann not that many have real power at hand. The K+ H guys always looked at the old 110 as a small auxiliary speakers not as something that would be somebody’s mains.
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