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Post by Guitar on Mar 30, 2021 4:48:01 GMT -6
These are the sort of rabbit holes I get lost in sometimes too. No, they don't help you get anything done, but you will come out of them and get on with your life.
I just view it as an inevitable part of using all this esoteric equipment, sometimes you get a little too curious and go for a deep dive, happens to all of us.
For me, they usually seem to last about 2 or 3 days before I move on to normal music again.
The last one I did was this mega digital parametric EQ mind-f%&*. I didn't really have a good time but I learned a lot about the EQ's out there, at least, and chose to own a few. One ended up on a master for a client, and half a dozen or more mixes I was working on, so it was a good result.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 30, 2021 9:35:15 GMT -6
Ok - So now I am stunned. I was playing the mixdown computer back through my Allen and Heath GS3000 - the same board I recorded from into the Lynx Aurora. Anyway, so I took the outputs out of the Forssell (with the mixdown computer 2 ch recording) directly into my Presonus headphone amp. And voila, now the Mixdown deck sounds better than the original tracks that was recorded into it. (Comparing both drum overhead recordings with tabla on each.) Makes no sense. But I am going with it.  What have I learned from all this? I could spend another 30 years and still not figure it all out! But if something works, it works.
There are thousands of variables that alter your sound, and your hearing is not getting better - hearing loss starts ø at the age of 25.
Just make music you have top-notch gear - do not go down the gear rabbit hole too deep. I know what I am talking about, I was there and thought it's a warm fire, but it was a great excuse not to start what I love. (Longer story which does not belong here, has to do with my dad...)
The majority of the pro audio companies of 2021 do not differ much from what the HIFI companies told the consumers in the 80s. This is the best, and you can't live without it anymore. It is nothing but marketing - psychology, they manipulate you till you have the feeling that you can't start making music without gear XYZ. That's why I love companies which offer me something without trying to talk me into it.
Yesterday I could not sleep, and I saw that video of the dude comparing top-notch converters. This video made me laugh because he worries about things which I have no time to worry about. X sounds better i the lows but Y is wider and more open...
LOL guess what dude you talk different designs, sure they sound and react different - SURPRISE? 
I am not saying you shouldn't have a good DA, but I am happy when the thing is decent and even more important, it is running stable as hell. For example the Antelope stuff is not running stable and users are not happy, RME is running stable...
I go stable even if the conversion may lack the last bit. I want to work I want to be creative, and I don't have time to lose calling support teams.
I am not old enough, but my mentor told me that the gear talk became crazy with the invention of the DAW. Without the DAWs all the companies would not be there. How many pro audio brands we had in the 70s to the 80s for multi-track tape machines? How many brands we have in conversion today??
Last but not least the music ends being degraded by data compression and is consumed on stupid Apple Ear buds.
Watching Netflix I always go ? when I hear the smearing top end of the music.
We are spoiled today with a laptop and an RME FireFace and NS 10s. I don't know how experienced you are?
But it sounds to me that it would be wise to create a song which just contains a single Acoustic Guitar and Vocals. When I did it the first time I was much surprised that getting the bigger than life modern AC Guitar Sound was not easy to catch.
Just make music, just be creative that's where the fun is.
My 2 cents back to work....
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Post by ab101 on Mar 30, 2021 9:48:12 GMT -6
Thank you all for caring. There is a lot to think about here. Including, how I am going to get back on track, so to speak, with my music.
One issue is figuring out how to record people I need on tracks during Covid. What a year!
So I am done with this thread in terms of the converter issue.
I am ready to move on to other things.
I get by with a little help from my friends. (people - not other analogies.)
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Post by Guitar on Mar 30, 2021 10:34:34 GMT -6
There is some aphorism, "Comparison is the thief of joy," I think that applies to converter shootouts as well as comparing your music to someone else's and so on. That guy's video was kind of depressing to me for this reason. To put that message on a major audio "network" is informative in one way, but in another way it sends a message that's not really directly related to most of what music is about. I was hoping for a better video. I agree with the premise that "converters sound different," but I didn't like the way he presented it, into a buy this uber expensive rare thing kind of video.
I think the key is to test, listen, make assessments, but control the urge to let it turn into an obsession. Not sure if that's possible but it seems like most of these tests we do can happen on a smaller time scale, and usually do.
One trick I have is when I'm testing gear, make sure to invent some new musical ideas to test the gear with. You might end up with a new song, or not, but at least you had some creative fun while doing this tweaky/geeky kind of testing and listening. It keeps it from being all about the gear.
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Post by drbill on Mar 30, 2021 10:55:11 GMT -6
Ok - So now I am stunned.
How many brands we have in conversion today??
....
I don't know. Lots for sure. I know that for me, changing my D/A to a Grace m905 was NOT a subtle difference. I had always taken the "D/A is more important than A/D" thing with a huge grain of salt. (skepticism). I was perfectly happy with my previous surround D/A - but when it started to crap out and get cranky and wouldn't consistently power up, I knew I had to switch, and I was not willing to go with the previous brand anymore due to consistent repairs needed. SoI auditioned and ultimately bought the Grace. Checking the two against each other was mind blowing, and I INSTANTLY had no regrets spending what I consider a fairly healthy sum of $$$$ on the Grace. All D/A are not created equal. I consider them a part of my monitoring "system" - as important as the speakers I choose. For me, it's a workflow enhancement. If I can hear intimate, low level details better, I can mix faster and better. It also gives me peace of mind that I can hear well, which to me is a creative enhancement. For me, it's really not much different than choosing which speaker to use. If you can't "hear" well on one, it's a poor choice. Same with D/A, albeit less so. But yeah, I'm with you on DA-AD back and forth thing. Not enough differences to fret over. |
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Post by Guitar on Mar 30, 2021 11:08:22 GMT -6
I agree drbill about the main DAC, I feel the exact same way about my Topping DX7S, it really did improve my experience and my workflow.
For tracking I'm a lot less picky, but still care somewhat about quality.
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Post by christopher on Mar 30, 2021 11:31:14 GMT -6
This topic killed me when I first got my mixing board setup. I had my monitors on the mixing board, so I'd mix ITB while listening to the monitors through the board. Mix/mastering would sound awesome, 3D, deep full etc.. I'd make a CD and listen in the car and it was like it was un-mixed- Just flat, harsh, thin and simply terrible. This repeated over many very important months and CD's, and me questioning my existence. I didn't consider that in order to get to my monitors, the chain was: Left and right DAC line out amps-->Line-IN transformers and amps--> summing amps -->output transformers--> power amp line in amps --> etc to speakers. When I finally crawled behind the board and recorded the XLR feed to the power amp, I was so upset, there was the sound. Too late though.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 30, 2021 11:33:05 GMT -6
But yeah, I'm with you on DA-AD back and forth thing. Not enough differences to fret over.
Understand your argument, more details...
Sure I could go up anytime but do I have too? NO!
I am happy with my middle class converters, they work they get the job done.
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Post by svart on Mar 30, 2021 11:48:55 GMT -6
To answer the original question.. No. Not possible.
But it's a matter of small details, both literally and figuratively. A/B between two converters can be beneficial, but can also create confusion and follow false paths. One of which is shown in this thread where the OP heard something completely opposite after doing some different testing.
My own experience is similar, doing painful A/B testing, following what I thought I heard only to later find out that I liked better what I thought I originally didn't like. That's when the lightbulb turned on and I realized that I was agonizing over expectations that I could never meet. No matter how good something was, it wasn't good enough, even though it was probably perfectly fine.
To that, I say that the Forssell gear is some of the best every made and I would question the other things you're comparing first.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 30, 2021 12:28:16 GMT -6
Hi Jmoose. I have some serious mixes coming up of music I have been working on for a long time. At least for me, it is a lot of work "making a record" and I have a lot invested in it, time and money, and I would like what I mix to be in converted as accurately as possible. I appreciate a lot of the input on this thread. Its good to go down the rabbit hole once in a while, experiment and learn things but that's on the opposite end of you know, actually putting together a record. Everything in the path has the potential to change things. The real question is where does it make positive vs negative vs net difference? And then why should you care? It was and still is really common for people mixing w/analog consoles/summing and especially to tape to listen and mix through the console 2 track returns. Because the tape machine electronics change the sound and you can either mix "into" it - or - put your mix together, pop over the printed mix and say WTF happened there? Even with a Studer or Ampex ATR they change the sound before hitting the record button. The thing with making a record is that a LOT of this is completely out of your control. Especially once released and out in the wild its going to take on a life of its own and you have zero control over what happens & how people listen to it. I remember the first time something I produced blew up and hit major market FM radio and MTV, back when they played music videos. The songs, the mixes absolutely sounded like my mixes. Yet there was so much broadcast processing & whatnot that they sounded wildly different when what we heard in the studio. All those little tiny decisions add up but ultimately don't mean squat in the real world. |
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Post by ab101 on Mar 30, 2021 13:34:17 GMT -6
How many brands we have in conversion today??
....
I don't know. Lots for sure. I know that for me, changing my D/A to a Grace m905 was NOT a subtle difference. I had always taken the "D/A is more important than A/D" thing with a huge grain of salt. (skepticism). I was perfectly happy with my previous surround D/A - but when it started to crap out and get cranky and wouldn't consistently power up, I knew I had to switch, and I was not willing to go with the previous brand anymore due to consistent repairs needed. SoI auditioned and ultimately bought the Grace. Checking the two against each other was mind blowing, and I INSTANTLY had no regrets spending what I consider a fairly healthy sum of $$$$ on the Grace. All D/A are not created equal. I consider them a part of my monitoring "system" - as important as the speakers I choose. For me, it's a workflow enhancement. If I can hear intimate, low level details better, I can mix faster and better. It also gives me peace of mind that I can hear well, which to me is a creative enhancement. For me, it's really not much different than choosing which speaker to use. If you can't "hear" well on one, it's a poor choice. Same with D/A, albeit less so. But yeah, I'm with you on DA-AD back and forth thing. Not enough differences to fret over. Dr. Bill - If I may ask out of curiosity, what are you using for the A/D ? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 30, 2021 13:37:40 GMT -6
There's so many holes here... and very easy to get into mind fuck territory. When comparing it's crucial to use the same DA converter and not touch the volume knob. Different DA? Throwing darts... Assuming the same converters when in doubt do a loop back test. One patchcable out of the box right back in. Sound any different? Do it 6 times, then 20 times. Any differences? Even basic "good" stuff like Motu & RME don't change that much if at all. Ymmv. Said the mixed tracks don't sound like the multis... isn't that the point? There's a mixer or summing box involved yes?? Processing of various degrees??! These days most converters sound really good. As in what I feed them is pretty much what I get back. I tend to not really notice differences and or sweat the small stuff unless something sounds really different. Could be different good or different bad. If I have to A/B more then like 3 times to hear a difference there are probably bigger things to sweat. Agree. Are you adding analog gear along the way? If so, that’s probably your answer...is it volume matched? |
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 30, 2021 13:51:40 GMT -6
I almost went into a crazy rabbit hole when I made the stupid test of checking if my analog mix buss hardware chain, all set in bypass, would null against the ITB mix. If it’s all in bypass it should probably almost null, right? RIGHT? 😅
Well, it turned out that stereo AD/DA plus cables, patch bay, and whatever method was chosen for signal bypass in the different hardware units really does change the signal a fair bit. It won’t null, no.
I thought briefly of trying to debug this and find the culprit. Fortunately I decided to keep my sanity and not do it. It’s not that I was hearing any signal degradation anyway.
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Post by drbill on Mar 30, 2021 15:31:35 GMT -6
Dr. Bill - If I may ask out of curiosity, what are you using for the A/D ? AVID HD i/o's. 112 Channels. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 31, 2021 19:22:35 GMT -6
The more I listen to the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ the more I find we have made awesome strides in DA , I’m not as sure on the AD side as this thing really makes even older digital recordings sound good.
In this day in age I think the idea of at least 2ch of great AD and DA is a prudent investment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 22:35:11 GMT -6
These are the sort of rabbit holes I get lost in sometimes too. No, they don't help you get anything done, but you will come out of them and get on with your life. I just view it as an inevitable part of using all this esoteric equipment, sometimes you get a little too curious and go for a deep dive, happens to all of us. For me, they usually seem to last about 2 or 3 days before I move on to normal music again. The last one I did was this mega digital parametric EQ mind-f%&*. I didn't really have a good time but I learned a lot about the EQ's out there, at least, and chose to own a few. One ended up on a master for a client, and half a dozen or more mixes I was working on, so it was a good result. These kind of rabbit holes are necessary ime. You may not like what you find and will cut stuff out from your work flow. Things that waste time and sound worse are offloaded and the results may shock you. For my channel strip comparison, I ended up with one that I initially rejected, PSP Infinistrip, because it killed everything else in the real world. Everything SSL, Scheps, McDSP whatever; PSP’s kielbasa outcompeted them. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 22:42:02 GMT -6
Hi Jmoose. I have some serious mixes coming up of music I have been working on for a long time. At least for me, it is a lot of work "making a record" and I have a lot invested in it, time and money, and I would like what I mix to be in converted as accurately as possible. I appreciate a lot of the input on this thread. Its good to go down the rabbit hole once in a while, experiment and learn things but that's on the opposite end of you know, actually putting together a record. Everything in the path has the potential to change things. The real question is where does it make positive vs negative vs net difference? And then why should you care? It was and still is really common for people mixing w/analog consoles/summing and especially to tape to listen and mix through the console 2 track returns. Because the tape machine electronics change the sound and you can either mix "into" it - or - put your mix together, pop over the printed mix and say WTF happened there? Even with a Studer or Ampex ATR they change the sound before hitting the record button. The thing with making a record is that a LOT of this is completely out of your control. Especially once released and out in the wild its going to take on a life of its own and you have zero control over what happens & how people listen to it. I remember the first time something I produced blew up and hit major market FM radio and MTV, back when they played music videos. The songs, the mixes absolutely sounded like my mixes. Yet there was so much broadcast processing & whatnot that they sounded wildly different when what we heard in the studio. All those little tiny decisions add up but ultimately don't mean squat in the real world. Sometimes you have to do some crazy stuff to make your sicko raw tracks play back in a Hyundai. Shit I even true peak it at -1 dbfs sometime because I know some scumbag is going to upload a pirated 320 kbps mp3 to YouTube and I don’t want the lossy codec of the lossy codec to audibly clip when played back through the awful directsound. Maybe -2 dbfs would be even better but that would eat into a lot more on the cd and my MOTU conversion sounds best at about -1dbfs true peak. Between -1 and 0 is more distorted especially if I run the monitoring outs full scale into a preamp or monitor controller to avoid the digital volume control. Most current CDs need that at -1 or -2 then. And that’s just one little way to wreck a loopback. Not even apply a different circuit’s timbre and digital filter to it from a different converter but just distorting the circuits. So I don’t think it’s possible and these records with a shitton of loopbacks probably overdrove something further through human error and equipment limitations compared to the original files unless they trimmed itb with a floating point colume control (not pro tools tdm), dithered the outs, and hit the ins just right to avoid analog noise at the bottom and digital clipping and overdriving the circuit at the top. |
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Post by Guitar on Apr 1, 2021 6:17:23 GMT -6
These are the sort of rabbit holes I get lost in sometimes too. No, they don't help you get anything done, but you will come out of them and get on with your life. I just view it as an inevitable part of using all this esoteric equipment, sometimes you get a little too curious and go for a deep dive, happens to all of us. For me, they usually seem to last about 2 or 3 days before I move on to normal music again. The last one I did was this mega digital parametric EQ mind-f%&*. I didn't really have a good time but I learned a lot about the EQ's out there, at least, and chose to own a few. One ended up on a master for a client, and half a dozen or more mixes I was working on, so it was a good result. These kind of rabbit holes are necessary ime. You may not like what you find and will cut stuff out from your work flow. Things that waste time and sound worse are offloaded and the results may shock you. For my channel strip comparison, I ended up with one that I initially rejected, PSP Infinistrip, because it killed everything else in the real world. Everything SSL, Scheps, McDSP whatever; PSP’s kielbasa outcompeted them. I agree with you for the most part. Have you ever done one that really hurts though? One time I got lost on this crazy tangent about processing my monitor speakers, I was running API preamps in front of them, dbx compressors, all kinds of things, trying to fix the sound. It was nuts. That one did have a result though. I realized my monitor chain was bad spaghetti. I had bad conversion, middling speakers, so I finally realized that was a big problem, and the only solution was an overhaul. It was pretty painful for a while there though. I guess that's why we need good monitor systems. Don't let the forums tell you that your $200 interface is "OK" and you "can't hear a difference," and so on, it will hurt you if you are serious about this. |
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