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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 15:54:12 GMT -6
Hi Friends:
So, here is my question for the day. Maybe it is a stupid question. I don't know.
I record to a DAW. I like what I hear. Then I mix the tracks to another computer using a Forssell MADA converter - supposed to be top notch.
Then I listen to the mix and compare it to the original tracks. I can hear a slight degradation. Not large, but I can hear the difference.
So, my question is: Has anyone experienced doing another AD/DA conversion without hearing any degradation? Is there any converter out there that is so good, that to the "ear" one cannot hear a difference between the source and the conversion? (I understand that multiple conversions will degrade, but is it possible to do one conversion with hearing a degradation?)
Thoughts? Thank you in advance.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2021 16:18:40 GMT -6
Probably not no. Electronics aren't perfect by nature. So they will all impart something.
That said, when you say "mix the tracks to another computer using a Forssell MADA.." does that mean you are coming out of the original DAW through the Forssell and then through some type of gear and then converting it again? I would assume so because otherwise there would literally be no need to do a AD/DA conversion step at all for mixing in the Box.
So rather the question could be, what did you do to it while it was analog? Because maybe you made it worse there rather than the converters making it worse. Which is more likely.
Or are you just saying you don't like the Forssell DA for monitoring?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 29, 2021 16:37:52 GMT -6
I’m wondering the reason for mixing into another system. Are you recording your mix at a higher sample rate or something? If not, there really isn’t any benefit to recording out of your system and then into another, unless you are hitting a 2-bus chain that gives you a certain mojo you’re after.
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Post by christopher on Mar 29, 2021 17:00:12 GMT -6
Could be the monitoring chain? A really nice monitoring chain sounds amazing and wonderful, and so the mix decisions will be based off that sound. By monitoring chain that can also simply mean really nice DAC outputs that sound good. In order to capture that sound as best as you can you'll want to patch the signal right before the speakers into the ADC and record the monitor feed ...even if you have to unplug the monitors and record the L/R. That should at least help narrow down where the true bottleneck is.
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 17:03:01 GMT -6
Good questions. First, I should have explained it better. I multitrack using a Lynx Aurora (n) thunderbolt. That goes to one computer. There are multiple tracks and it records great.
Then I go out of the box, where I add effects, like a Bricasti reverb, hardware eqs, hardware compressors, etc.
Then that is mixed using the DA from the Lynx Aurora through all this analogue gear, and into a Forssell MADA (AD part) to another computer with Wavelab 10.
Then I listen back to the "mixdown" computer using the Forssell MADA DA part.
So, recently I did an experience where I listened to a drum overhead part on the original track and recorded it to the mixdown computer. When I listened to the original versus the mixdown, it seemed like the balance was a little different and the kick, for instance, was not as tight. It also seemed like a little bit of the high end was diminished. And I am speaking about a very minor difference. I had to listen multiple times.
So, was it unrealistic for me to expect the an additional AD/DA conversion to sound as good as the source? In my comparison, both are played through identical analogue equipment. Thank you again!
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Post by christopher on Mar 29, 2021 18:10:32 GMT -6
Short answer: Yeah its reasonable to assume converters going from one to the other shouldn't be very noticeable at all, unless its intentional.
Long answer: When something is converted the very first time, like a mic signal, there is a TON of information that is filtered out and lost forever. But once its turned into digital, then I think of playback and re-capture in terms of data transfer: The data has already been quantized, so its more a matter of transmitting all these digital signals 20Hz- 20kHz from a transmitter to a receiver; just instead of bit values, its reconstructed into analog waves that are easily coded back to the bit values. For best data transmission, you'd want the cleanest signal path possible (and precisely matched clock).
So in theory, a simple DAC/ADC round-trip of already digitized stuff should be close to perfect; if its changing the character of sounds, then there should be some kind of explanation. A change in sound means the already quantized, perfectly-clocked signal is changing somehow between the DAC and ADC. For us that usually means we are putting good sounding analog stages, summing busses, and whatever else. Converter manufacturers want it to sound good too, so they may experiment for sweet sound on the line stages before the converter. Any and all of this stuff can often add new harmonics and change the wave shape quite a bit. So then the ADC part is going to be chopping off a lot of stuff again, just like it had to for the original mic signal.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2021 18:28:04 GMT -6
Next question. What sample rates are you using?
I had a similar experience when mixing from a protools machine through an ask duality and rerecord back into protools.
My solution was to record at 24/96 with a radar. Was much better capture what I was hearing off the console.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 29, 2021 18:36:18 GMT -6
My question does it really bother you because every stage in signal treatment changes everything ask some old dogs about the hate and love relationship they had with the tape medium. Even cheap converters should feel like a blessing compared to tape, unless you love the sound of tape and the circumstances in the workflow....
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Post by OtisGreying on Mar 29, 2021 18:40:40 GMT -6
Maybe it's just the sound of that particular Forssell converter?
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 19:12:04 GMT -6
24 bit 96k. Yup could be the sound of the converter. So, is it fair to say that there is no converter that one can buy today that when the converter is fed a signal that has already been converted, that its AD-DA stages will not alter the sound in any noticeable way?
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Post by OtisGreying on Mar 29, 2021 19:20:21 GMT -6
24 bit 96k. Yup could be the sound of the converter. So, is it fair to say that there is no converter that one can buy today that when the converter is fed a signal that has already been converted, that its AD-DA stages will not alter the sound in any noticeable way? You already have the Lynx, to my knowledge Lynx is definitely in the conversation for most transparent conversion available.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 29, 2021 19:49:14 GMT -6
There's so many holes here... and very easy to get into mind fuck territory.
When comparing it's crucial to use the same DA converter and not touch the volume knob. Different DA? Throwing darts...
Assuming the same converters when in doubt do a loop back test. One patchcable out of the box right back in. Sound any different? Do it 6 times, then 20 times. Any differences?
Even basic "good" stuff like Motu & RME don't change that much if at all. Ymmv.
Said the mixed tracks don't sound like the multis... isn't that the point? There's a mixer or summing box involved yes?? Processing of various degrees??!
These days most converters sound really good. As in what I feed them is pretty much what I get back.
I tend to not really notice differences and or sweat the small stuff unless something sounds really different. Could be different good or different bad. If I have to A/B more then like 3 times to hear a difference there are probably bigger things to sweat.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2021 20:04:29 GMT -6
24 bit 96k. Yup could be the sound of the converter. So, is it fair to say that there is no converter that one can buy today that when the converter is fed a signal that has already been converted, that its AD-DA stages will not alter the sound in any noticeable way? Well there are a lot of very high end converters out there. -Merging Technology -DAD are two that are very popular in the classical world and mastering world. They are pretty damn transparent. They are also NOT cheap.
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Post by tasteliketape on Mar 29, 2021 20:23:34 GMT -6
Maybe it's just the sound of that particular Forssell converter? I agree with this ,as different converter s just sound different
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 29, 2021 20:32:00 GMT -6
There's so many holes here... and very easy to get into mind fuck territory. When comparing it's crucial to use the same DA converter and not touch the volume knob. Different DA? Throwing darts... Assuming the same converters when in doubt do a loop back test. One patchcable out of the box right back in. Sound any different? Do it 6 times, then 20 times. Any differences? Even basic "good" stuff like Motu & RME don't change that much if at all. Ymmv. Said the mixed tracks don't sound like the multis... isn't that the point? There's a mixer or summing box involved yes?? Processing of various degrees??! These days most converters sound really good. As in what I feed them is pretty much what I get back. I tend to not really notice differences and or sweat the small stuff unless something sounds really different. Could be different good or different bad. If I have to A/B more then like 3 times to hear a difference there are probably bigger things to sweat. That’s why I wrote every stage in his mix setup alters the sound. I did loop back tests with RME plenty of times and barely could hear a different sound after 30 round trips .... may younger ears can ... I couldn’t.
That was the day I stopped worrying about the quality of modern converters. If I traveled to 1989 with my two FireFaces 802 I am pretty sure some AE would have killed me for this technology. Having basic tools running on the internal DSP for tracking is just heaven on earth.
I just wait for the day that I can insert my favorite plug into the total mix software, and it runs on the internal DSP....
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 20:56:50 GMT -6
Ok - So now I am stunned. I was playing the mixdown computer back through my Allen and Heath GS3000 - the same board I recorded from into the Lynx Aurora. Anyway, so I took the outputs out of the Forssell (with the mixdown computer 2 ch recording) directly into my Presonus headphone amp. And voila, now the Mixdown deck sounds better than the original tracks that was recorded into it. (Comparing both drum overhead recordings with tabla on each.) Makes no sense. But I am going with it. What have I learned from all this? I could spend another 30 years and still not figure it all out! But if something works, it works.
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 21:07:53 GMT -6
Well there are a lot of very high end converters out there. -Merging Technology -DAD are two that are very popular in the classical world and mastering world. They are pretty damn transparent. They are also NOT cheap. i appreciate this input about Merging technology and DAD. I researched both and they both seem fantastic. However, I just need two in and two out and the Forssell MADA-2 does that well. If someone know the most transparent 2 in 2 out converter, I am curious. Thank you.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2021 21:32:28 GMT -6
Well there are a lot of very high end converters out there. -Merging Technology -DAD are two that are very popular in the classical world and mastering world. They are pretty damn transparent. They are also NOT cheap. i appreciate this input about Merging technology and DAD. I researched both and they both seem fantastic. However, I just need two in and two out and the Forssell MADA-2 does that well. If someone know the most transparent 2 in 2 out converter, I am curious. Thank you. Check out Meetings anubis converter then. It's pretty much that. Bit more advanced but still be the top tier converters. Mastering guys just use that often.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 29, 2021 21:54:38 GMT -6
Ok - So now I am stunned. I was playing the mixdown computer back through my Allen and Heath GS3000 - the same board I recorded from into the Lynx Aurora. Anyway, so I took the outputs out of the Forssell (with the mixdown computer 2 ch recording) directly into my Presonus headphone amp. And voila, now the Mixdown deck sounds better than the original tracks that was recorded into it. (Comparing both drum overhead recordings with tabla on each.) Makes no sense. But I am going with it. What have I learned from all this? I could spend another 30 years and still not figure it all out! But if something works, it works. Ehh..? Honest question.. Are you engaging in a science experiment or making a record?
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 22:26:58 GMT -6
Hi Jmoose. I have some serious mixes coming up of music I have been working on for a long time. At least for me, it is a lot of work "making a record" and I have a lot invested in it, time and money, and I would like what I mix to be in converted as accurately as possible. I appreciate a lot of the input on this thread.
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 29, 2021 22:32:20 GMT -6
Are you engaging in a science experiment or making a record? This is what I was going to ask. What's the goal of these experiments? How is this helping you make art? The only time I find myself going down these sorts of roads is when I'm avoiding making music...when I should instead just be making music for myself or my artists!
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 22:38:05 GMT -6
Are you engaging in a science experiment or making a record? This is what I was going to ask. What's the goal of these experiments? How is this helping you make art? The only time I find myself going down these sorts of roads is when I'm avoiding making music...when I should instead just be making music for myself or my artists! I hear what you are saying. I do think it is a question of balance. Even being on these boards is not exactly making music. But part of the joy of making the music for me - whether it is the instruments or pro audio equipment - is the process. And for me, I like to understand the instruments and the equipment better. And when I do - for instance, if I record a grand piano and I am lucky enough to record it really well - I want it to be preserved through the end process as much as possible. If others feel differently, that is cool.
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 29, 2021 23:02:30 GMT -6
This is what I was going to ask. What's the goal of these experiments? How is this helping you make art? The only time I find myself going down these sorts of roads is when I'm avoiding making music...when I should instead just be making music for myself or my artists! I hear what you are saying. I do think it is a question of balance. Even being on these boards is not exactly making music. But part of the joy of making the music for me - whether it is the instruments or pro audio equipment - is the process. And for me, I like to understand the instruments and the equipment better. And when I do - for instance, if I record a grand piano and I am lucky enough to record it really well - I want it to be preserved through the end process as much as possible. If others feel differently, that is cool. It's not a criticism. It's a question. For you, knowing all of this stuff and intellectualizing all the pieces makes you want to make great music. Awesome! For me, if I'm doing something like this I know I'm avoiding something. That's why I was asking. I wanted to be sure you were doing something in pursuit of making cool stuff rather than in avoidance of making cool stuff! Why am I on this message board right this second? I'm waiting for a song to bounce out of my system so I can send to a client...before I tune vocals and reamp a couple tracks for a different client. I'm excited for your project! Keep us updated about how it's going!
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Post by ab101 on Mar 29, 2021 23:43:50 GMT -6
Thank you Schmalzy. I am sure there is a truth to what you are saying about myself. Sometimes, I get writer's block so to speak, and I end up consumed with other issues. My forssell MADA is about ten years old, and I figures there was a chance that more transparent converters have been made since I had the unit. I had a feeling when I started this thread that I might be straying at gnats. At the same time, these boards are filled with all sorts of comparisons where maybe one item is 2 percent better than another. But I record a lot of tracks and it adds up. So 2 percent here and there, can easily be a 10% difference or more in the end.
Also, I think science and art are not that separate. The idea of people making converters getting closer and closer to perfection, is an art in itself. And I like to honor those people and buy their products. So, in a way, audio design, with the focus on "design" is an art combined with science.
This has been a very isolating year for me, and Covid has been difficult that way, because I am normally socially gregarious. So, these forums really help me make it through this pandemic. All the best!
So, all is good. Thank you for your support!
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Post by OtisGreying on Mar 29, 2021 23:58:25 GMT -6
I hear what you are saying. I do think it is a question of balance. Even being on these boards is not exactly making music. But part of the joy of making the music for me - whether it is the instruments or pro audio equipment - is the process. And for me, I like to understand the instruments and the equipment better. And when I do - for instance, if I record a grand piano and I am lucky enough to record it really well - I want it to be preserved through the end process as much as possible. If others feel differently, that is cool. It's not a criticism. It's a question. For you, knowing all of this stuff and intellectualizing all the pieces makes you want to make great music. Awesome! For me, if I'm doing something like this I know I'm avoiding something. That's why I was asking. I wanted to be sure you were doing something in pursuit of making cool stuff rather than in avoidance of making cool stuff! Why am I on this message board right this second? I'm waiting for a song to bounce out of my system so I can send to a client...before I tune vocals and reamp a couple tracks for a different client. I'm excited for your project! Keep us updated about how it's going! Well said, everyones line is different for at which point they're drawing inspiration from the pursuit of gear and when they're really just avoiding something.. But the line is always there
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