|
Post by EmRR on Mar 24, 2021 23:40:08 GMT -6
....on a personal flashback level.
We did two sessions with Mitch Easter at the Drive-In, 1990 and 1991, to 2” 30 IPS, mixed to 1/2” same. Amek Angela console.
Did a second record there in 1993 to ADAT, never got mixed. Same band, same mic approach, same console. Have tinkered with mixes on and off a few years, getting close.
Mitch just transferred all the tapes this week at 96/24 and I’ve had a look/listen. The mixes sound better than the CD that came out the other end. Weirdly, some songs are polarity flipped on the CD, but not all. The mastering made it thinner/brighter and brought out the heavy reverbs/efx in some bad ways. Of course this is the first time the actual tapes have been heard since the last mix day in 1991. Scotch 250 for the mixes, BTW, didn’t need baking. The 226 and 996 2” did.
Seeing waveforms for the first time, it’s tracked HOT. Drums are tape limited for sure, bass and guitars have a hair of compression. No wonder no one had a bunch of compressors back then. He had an 1178, a 162, and some Gain Brains, that was it. The mix waveforms look pretty well limited already, no need for any of that at mastering.
It’s pretty damn hi-fi. Too bad we weren’t!
The ADAT stuff sounds pretty honest, but lacking all euphonic enhancements. Better than you’d think, when transferred and played through modern converters. Ours was the first session on the ADATs (in the whole state of NC) so kudos to Mitch for not doing a bunch of tape oriented EQ on autopilot. I remember everyone present was excited to hear all the transients intact at playback, that was a new experience.
Pros and cons:
it’d be great it the ADAT stuff sounded like the tape stuff. I wonder that it might get most of the way there if you printed it to tape with the same hot levels.
I ran a cassette deck through the first two tape sessions, so there’s a document of every take and overdub pass. Deciding we could do better, we erased all the better takes, because tape was expensive and you weren’t going to keep everything. Total bummer. “Can you do better - we can do better” is not a good game to play.
For less than the cost of 15 minutes of 2”, we kept 7 sets of ADAT tapes, every complete take. This meant we’d play a couple of takes in a row without stopping and evaluating every one as it happened. We picked all the best complete takes at the time, but modern editing ease means I’ve now comped some bits from various takes. Some of that could have been done with assembly editing on the ADATs but that was pretty painful.
The tape record really sounds great, no doubt. The content suffered due to media cost considerations. Certainly a common story. The ADAT record throws it firmly into the ‘record everything decide later’ category for better or worse. The band broke up before it was done....it’s still not done.
Mitch and I are trying to remember how we did tape flanging on 2 mixes. I remember us experimenting and figuring out the moves to get the effects we wanted, but there are no alternate mixes of those songs. One song has a sync head mix printed back to 2 tracks on the 2”, but the other song doesn’t. He didn’t have 2 identical 2 tracks, so we don’t know how we did head delay compensation. Best bet is the H3000, but nothing we’ve thought of makes sense yet.
|
|
|
Post by srb on Mar 25, 2021 0:06:15 GMT -6
This, right here, is why I love the internet. Plus, North Carolina represent!
|
|
|
Post by swafford on Mar 25, 2021 1:32:52 GMT -6
Have nothing to add but saw Let's Active! in Rochester, NY ca. 1984 with 10,000 Maniacs opening and it was SPECTACULAR! Tell Mitch I'm still a fan.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2021 7:07:30 GMT -6
Have nothing to add but saw Let's Active! in Rochester, NY ca. 1984 with 10,000 Maniacs opening and it was SPECTACULAR! Tell Mitch I'm still a fan. By chance I took the dubious title of ‘last FOH sound guy at the final Let’s Active show’ in 1990. I think it was already over but there was one last offer private gig they couldn’t refuse.
|
|
|
Post by drumsound on Mar 25, 2021 7:48:02 GMT -6
Did you go out to the Fidelitorium and do the transfers with Mitch? Does he still have ADATS that work?
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2021 8:11:07 GMT -6
Did you go out to the Fidelitorium and do the transfers with Mitch? Does he still have ADATS that work? I always had ADATs, I did those transfers 5-6 years ago. Mitch still has his but I don’t know that any work, he mentioned needing repairs. Fidelitorium has been closed for a year, I got the tapes to him and he did an upload on the files. I still need to go by and pick up the tapes.
|
|
|
Post by delcampo on Mar 25, 2021 8:35:32 GMT -6
Along this topic, I was working on a trk last night that had a few fast & dirty scratch elec gts on it that I needed to replace. More often than not, and as we all pretty much know, if you have a super rough scratch/demo thing that works well, recapturing with a more "proper" - less warts / better playing recording, can be a game of questionable overall macro vibe return. Even if, a better sound yada yada. The dangers of the demo syndrome.
The rough sketch stuff was tracked quick, gt-di-pre-comp-ad-daw. Point is, I usually track to tape before the AD & off repro, at least for things I believe benefit most from it. ie; drums, elec gts, ld vocs and some string instruments in general. I'm less tape-picky about things like synths, backing vocs, or even bass.
I was later struck by, as per usual, how freaking great the guitars sounded that were just cut in comparison to the non tape trks. I often feel this way especially about E gts to tape. The depth etc, and just overall pleasantness.
Nothing surprising here but just glad to have it for key things that I think make it worth the maintenance. It's an Ampex 440 in good shape fwiw. I just find it interesting that for the price of really good piece of HW, something like the 440 (even a 2 trk) is obtainable and a powerful tool. Even if it's only used for selective tracks. Slap the voxengo latency plug on your daw's input track after a quick repro head latency calculation, in business.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 25, 2021 8:45:44 GMT -6
This is a very interesting post. Thanks for sharing.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2021 9:10:12 GMT -6
delcampo, another tangent, Mitch and I were talking about some 70’s archival stuff we’ve been involved in digging up, and the question of “what mics” came up. Funny how often no one remembers that part, it just sounds good, or not, no matter what was used.
|
|
|
Post by delcampo on Mar 25, 2021 9:42:34 GMT -6
delcampo, another tangent, Mitch and I were talking about some 70’s archival stuff we’ve been involved in digging up, and the question of “what mics” came up. Funny how often no one remembers that part, it just sounds good, or not, no matter what was used. So true. I try to have different 3 mics on stands plugged & ready to throw in front of something fast. Knowing that (other than pure laziness) and that there might be a better mic for the task in the mic locker thingy, it almost always doesn't matter so much if what is being grabbed outta the air is really that good.
|
|
|
Post by superwack on Mar 25, 2021 11:05:16 GMT -6
Music / Pop Culture is so odd. I LOVE Mitch Easter's production work, I used to religiously watch IRS the Cutting Edge on MTV while waiting for "The Young Ones", etc. and I have literally NEVER heard of Let's Active (and after looking them up on YouTube) nor their songs which is incredibly weird as it is and definitely would have been directly in my wheelhouse. curious! I appreciate your comparison of the recordings and the introduction
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Mar 25, 2021 11:48:43 GMT -6
Growing up in Raleigh (and going to Broughton HS), I think my first real exposure to Mitch was via "Boylan Heights," by The Connells. But I eventually learned how to use an inline console on that exact Amek Angela of Mitch's. I really liked the sound of that board. I recently pulled up some mixes I did in the early 2000s on that board, actually, and even though I didn't really know exactly what I was doing at the time, I'm surprised at how cohesive the mixes sound. Some of the stuff I would've tracked to 2" Studer A80 (456), but some of it was definitely ADAT XT20.
|
|
|
Post by drumsound on Mar 25, 2021 12:19:16 GMT -6
Did you go out to the Fidelitorium and do the transfers with Mitch? Does he still have ADATS that work? I always had ADATs, I did those transfers 5-6 years ago. Mitch still has his but I don’t know that any work, he mentioned needing repairs. Fidelitorium has been closed for a year, I got the tapes to him and he did an upload on the files. I still need to go by and pick up the tapes. I knew the Fidelitorium was closed, but I wondered if, for a transfer with a client and friend, you might have been able to go do it if you hadn't. delcampo, another tangent, Mitch and I were talking about some 70’s archival stuff we’ve been involved in digging up, and the question of “what mics” came up. Funny how often no one remembers that part, it just sounds good, or not, no matter what was used. delcampo, another tangent, Mitch and I were talking about some 70’s archival stuff we’ve been involved in digging up, and the question of “what mics” came up. Funny how often no one remembers that part, it just sounds good, or not, no matter what was used. So true. I try to have different 3 mics on stands plugged & ready to throw in front of something fast. Knowing that (other than pure laziness) and that there might be a better mic for the task in the mic locker thingy, it almost always doesn't matter so much if what is being grabbed outta the air is really that good. Mitch has joked to me and others about how often his mic choice is based on "proximity effect." Not how much the low end increases when mics get closer to the source, but about what microphone happens to be in close proximity to what is about to be recorded. Music / Pop Culture is so odd. I LOVE Mitch Easter's production work, I used to religiously watch IRS the Cutting Edge on MTV while waiting for "The Young Ones", etc. and I have literally NEVER heard of Let's Active (and after looking them up on YouTube) nor their songs which is incredibly weird as it is and definitely would have been directly in my wheelhouse. curious! I appreciate your comparison of the recordings and the introduction Get a copy of Mitch's solo record Dynamico. Its really great. Growing up in Raleigh (and going to Broughton HS), I think my first real exposure to Mitch was via "Boylan Heights," by The Connells. But I eventually learned how to use an inline console on that exact Amek Angela of Mitch's. I really liked the sound of that board. I recently pulled up some mixes I did in the early 2000s on that board, actually, and even though I didn't really know exactly what I was doing at the time, I'm surprised at how cohesive the mixes sound. Some of the stuff I would've tracked to 2" Studer A80 (456), but some of it was definitely ADAT XT20. If you wanted to get that sound again Old House Studio in Charlotte has a similar, larger blue Angela.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2021 13:08:21 GMT -6
Growing up in Raleigh (and going to Broughton HS), I think my first real exposure to Mitch was via "Boylan Heights," by The Connells. But I eventually learned how to use an inline console on that exact Amek Angela of Mitch's. I really liked the sound of that board. I recently pulled up some mixes I did in the early 2000s on that board, actually, and even though I didn't really know exactly what I was doing at the time, I'm surprised at how cohesive the mixes sound. Some of the stuff I would've tracked to 2" Studer A80 (456), but some of it was definitely ADAT XT20. I helped Mitch and Wes carry it out of the Drive-In! Strange day, but I think the Neve was already in use at the other house and the Drive-In retired.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2021 13:09:56 GMT -6
Mitch has joked to me and others about how often his mic choice is based on "proximity effect." Not how much the low end increases when mics get closer to the source, but about what microphone happens to be in close proximity to what is about to be recorded. Right! "does it make sound, can you hear the thing?" "yes!" "hit record!"
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Mar 25, 2021 14:19:33 GMT -6
Mitch has joked to me and others about how often his mic choice is based on "proximity effect." Not how much the low end increases when mics get closer to the source, but about what microphone happens to be in close proximity to what is about to be recorded. Right! "does it make sound, can you hear the thing?" "yes!" "hit record!" Oh man, I love that. Wonderful. It again touches on my idea (and memory) that we didn't used to be as "precious" about everything as we are now, and that some modern recording behaviors get in the way of spontaneous artistic creativity.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Mar 25, 2021 14:33:59 GMT -6
Growing up in Raleigh (and going to Broughton HS), I think my first real exposure to Mitch was via "Boylan Heights," by The Connells. But I eventually learned how to use an inline console on that exact Amek Angela of Mitch's. I really liked the sound of that board. I recently pulled up some mixes I did in the early 2000s on that board, actually, and even though I didn't really know exactly what I was doing at the time, I'm surprised at how cohesive the mixes sound. Some of the stuff I would've tracked to 2" Studer A80 (456), but some of it was definitely ADAT XT20. I helped Mitch and Wes carry it out of the Drive-In! Strange day, but I think the Neve was already in use at the other house and the Drive-In retired. Nice! I don't envy you carrying that board. By the time I met and started working with Wes, he had already commissioned that board and sold his old Amek TAC Scorpion to Kurt Mueller at Studioworks. Wes was out of the back half of Cat's Cradle and already in the strip mall in Durham by that point. And now I live about 7 mins from that strip mall, ironically enough. Man, I haven't seen any of those guys in years. Except Stamey - I still run into him on occasion. Or did, back before the pandemic.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,928
|
Post by ericn on Mar 25, 2021 16:18:12 GMT -6
delcampo, another tangent, Mitch and I were talking about some 70’s archival stuff we’ve been involved in digging up, and the question of “what mics” came up. Funny how often no one remembers that part, it just sounds good, or not, no matter what was used. Yeah for years I have been saying never believe what mic somebody used on “X” how ever long ago, between memory politics and indulgences who remembers? I am always surprised how so much old ADAT stuff dosen’t suck, yeah they were a bitch to sync, the transport was crap , SVHS at higher speed than normal shedded like a dog in spring, but they didn’t really sound quite as bad as we remember. Interesting side though they just might sound better through modern DA’s. Not saying use a bunch of XT’s as AD but they do seam to sound better in 2021 than 1991!
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Mar 25, 2021 16:25:03 GMT -6
delcampo, another tangent, Mitch and I were talking about some 70’s archival stuff we’ve been involved in digging up, and the question of “what mics” came up. Funny how often no one remembers that part, it just sounds good, or not, no matter what was used. Yeah for years I have been saying never believe what mic somebody used on “X” how ever long ago, between memory politics and indulgences who remembers? I am always surprised how so much old ADAT stuff dosen’t suck, yeah they were a bitch to sync, the transport was crap , SVHS at higher speed than normal shedded like a dog in spring, but they didn’t really sound quite as bad as we remember. Interesting side though they just might sound better through modern DA’s. Not saying use a bunch of XT’s as AD but they do seam to sound better in 2021 than 1991! I know it's anathema, but I remember in the late 90s choosing ADAT XT-20s over the Studer A80 2" 24trk on a couple of projects where the budget would've allowed either way. Either myself or the artist just liked the sound better on the ADATs for that particular project.
|
|
|
Post by drumsound on Mar 25, 2021 18:18:26 GMT -6
Growing up in Raleigh (and going to Broughton HS), I think my first real exposure to Mitch was via "Boylan Heights," by The Connells. But I eventually learned how to use an inline console on that exact Amek Angela of Mitch's. I really liked the sound of that board. I recently pulled up some mixes I did in the early 2000s on that board, actually, and even though I didn't really know exactly what I was doing at the time, I'm surprised at how cohesive the mixes sound. Some of the stuff I would've tracked to 2" Studer A80 (456), but some of it was definitely ADAT XT20. I helped Mitch and Wes carry it out of the Drive-In! Strange day, but I think the Neve was already in use at the other house and the Drive-In retired. Where did that end up. Wes has had 2 APIs since, hasn't he? Right! "does it make sound, can you hear the thing?" "yes!" "hit record!" Oh man, I love that. Wonderful. It again touches on my idea (and memory) that we didn't used to be as "precious" about everything as we are now, and that some modern recording behaviors get in the way of spontaneous artistic creativity. Yeah, guys like Mitch are really good at reminding me to focus on the MUSIC and not the gear. I helped Mitch and Wes carry it out of the Drive-In! Strange day, but I think the Neve was already in use at the other house and the Drive-In retired. Nice! I don't envy you carrying that board. By the time I met and started working with Wes, he had already commissioned that board and sold his old Amek TAC Scorpion to Kurt Mueller at Studioworks. Wes was out of the back half of Cat's Cradle and already in the strip mall in Durham by that point. And now I live about 7 mins from that strip mall, ironically enough. Man, I haven't seen any of those guys in years. Except Stamey - I still run into him on occasion. Or did, back before the pandemic. Stamey is such an odd duck, but sooooo good. Yeah for years I have been saying never believe what mic somebody used on “X” how ever long ago, between memory politics and indulgences who remembers? I am always surprised how so much old ADAT stuff dosen’t suck, yeah they were a bitch to sync, the transport was crap , SVHS at higher speed than normal shedded like a dog in spring, but they didn’t really sound quite as bad as we remember. Interesting side though they just might sound better through modern DA’s. Not saying use a bunch of XT’s as AD but they do seam to sound better in 2021 than 1991! I know it's anathema, but I remember in the late 90s choosing ADAT XT-20s over the Studer A80 2" 24trk on a couple of projects where the budget would've allowed either way. Either myself or the artist just liked the sound better on the ADATs for that particular project. I either want to make a tongue in cheek joke, or be the "analog guy" who says something about the Studer's alignment. Instead I'll say "Yeah, I did some good records on ADATS and so did my friends."
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Mar 25, 2021 20:14:57 GMT -6
I know it's anathema, but I remember in the late 90s choosing ADAT XT-20s over the Studer A80 2" 24trk on a couple of projects where the budget would've allowed either way. Either myself or the artist just liked the sound better on the ADATs for that particular project. I either want to make a tongue in cheek joke, or be the "analog guy" who says something about the Studer's alignment. Instead I'll say "Yeah, I did some good records on ADATS and so did my friends." One record I’m thinking of in particular was an acoustic guitar, vocal, and fiddle record with no drums. The Studer was definitely aligned, but there was something in the immediacy of the attack on the acoustic guitar strings that we all liked on the ADATs. It was just a 90s guitar sound that we’ve all heard 100 times, nothing special. But I remember that was the sound we were looking for, as opposed to the thicker, slower transient of the 2” machine. It’s interesting, I could never imagine making that choice today, but it was the aesthetic of that particular time.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Mar 26, 2021 4:43:24 GMT -6
Cool thread. I lived in Durham 2001-2003 for a while. Going to college. It's a shame I wasn't more connected with the music community, but I was very aware of the buzz in the area and did catch bits of it that were on campus or near campus. Think I bought a Lets Active CD in one of the long standing record shops around there. My favorite song on that disc is "Room With A View."
Those were the years I decided writing essays and normal career paths weren't for me, and music was the thing, so I'm sure the things I was seeing and hearing were a part of that.
I've never used an ADAT or a reel to reel but it's fun to hear about them in sort of an archaeological way, the history of recording.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 26, 2021 9:19:41 GMT -6
Interesting side thought they just might sound better through modern DA’s. Not saying use a bunch of XT’s as AD but they do seem to sound better in 2021 than 1993! Horizon had an analog in/out circuit board replacement for the blackface machines that made them sound MUCH better, and balanced the 1/4" connections. The XT20's actually sounded less distinct/clear in a way.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Mar 26, 2021 12:06:50 GMT -6
Cool thread. I lived in Durham 2001-2003 for a while. Going to college. It's a shame I wasn't more connected with the music community, but I was very aware of the buzz in the area and did catch bits of it that were on campus or near campus. Think I bought a Lets Active CD in one of the long standing record shops around there. My favorite song on that disc is "Room With A View." Those were the years I decided writing essays and normal career paths weren't for me, and music was the thing, so I'm sure the things I was seeing and hearing were a part of that. I've never used an ADAT or a reel to reel but it's fun to hear about them in sort of an archaeological way, the history of recording. I had no idea you were in Durham back then, Dan. I was living in Raleigh at that point, but working in Durham at Wes's studio a few times per week. I bet you got that CD at Poindexter Records on Ninth Street. Long gone, I'm afraid, but that's where Wes bought me a copy of "Blood On the Tracks" one day at lunch and said I needed to learn it. He was right.
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Mar 26, 2021 12:15:26 GMT -6
Cool thread. I lived in Durham 2001-2003 for a while. Going to college. It's a shame I wasn't more connected with the music community, but I was very aware of the buzz in the area and did catch bits of it that were on campus or near campus. Think I bought a Lets Active CD in one of the long standing record shops around there. My favorite song on that disc is "Room With A View." Those were the years I decided writing essays and normal career paths weren't for me, and music was the thing, so I'm sure the things I was seeing and hearing were a part of that. I've never used an ADAT or a reel to reel but it's fun to hear about them in sort of an archaeological way, the history of recording. I had no idea you were in Durham back then, Dan. I was living in Raleigh at that point, but working in Durham at Wes's studio a few times per week. I bet you got that CD at Poindexter Records on Ninth Street. Long gone, I'm afraid, but that's where Wes bought me a copy of "Blood On the Tracks" one day at lunch and said I needed to learn it. He was right. Lived in Raleigh in the mid 80's (1984 IIRC) and School Kids Records was all the rage then. Lived in Durham for a semester in spring of '91. I didn't even care about being at Duke when they wont their first Bball championsip.
|
|