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Post by lpedrum on Mar 22, 2021 22:31:53 GMT -6
I feel your pain Doug. I think what some of the posters here don't understand is the average lap top user updates the OS regularly just as we'd update our iPhone. But most of our studio Macs are so interconnected to other so much other software and hardware we're usually running a few OS behind. That makes running things like GarageBand and Apple video programs impractical for most studios because Apple doesn't seem to find it in their best interest to make GarageBand etc backwards compatible.
I've been working with a client recently that sings his vocals at home using the Presonus Studio One DAW and it works fine. They have a free version called Prime that would probably do the trick. Even if they don't want to learn how to consolidate separate wav files they could easily send the complete project file to you and your version of Studio One and have you do it.
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Post by popmann on Mar 22, 2021 22:46:17 GMT -6
Wait-you update your iPhone?
Actually--just FWIW...if THEY bought LogicX, even if they ONLY used it for this--to open the GBX file and "export all as audio files"---exporting from DAWs is NOT straight forward--EXCEPT in Logic, IME. I mean, I have to walk long time users of multiple DAWs through getting me unadulterated WAV. I am critical of Logic at many turns--ironically, including their terrible import inconsistency...but, export? Is simple enough for any user to do it. And I mean ANY...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 23, 2021 7:07:57 GMT -6
Let’s go back to the basics of any B-school, the customer is always right. The customers like GarageBand, somebody is going to take these files and their money, might as well be you. Is it a pain in the ass? Hell yes and unfortunately at some point you find that your going to have no choice but budget for a new Mac every year for these clients. You can’t thumb your nose at them because there are to many so you’re stuck with it. All I can say is that it is easier than doing real time transfers from an ADAT or some stupid proprietary hardware DAW.
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Post by M57 on Mar 23, 2021 9:36:11 GMT -6
Have them watch this tutorial. Really, If they can create something in GB you should be able to expect them to have a reasonable (if minimal) ability to follow directions. At worst they should be able to find a friend that can help them out. You'll get AIF files. I don't know if they're stereo or mono. Toward the end of the video he even shows how to turn off processing on each stem. FWIW, even creating mono stems in Logic took me a while to figure out. For the longest time I was sending dual mono tracks.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 23, 2021 11:23:48 GMT -6
All I can say is that it is easier than doing real time transfers from an ADAT Oh ADAT transfers are way faster and less painful!
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2021 11:38:06 GMT -6
EmRR, do the clients understand how much time (and therefore money) it's costing them for you to get the tracks out? Have they ever been physically present while you've done it? If not, is there any chance that would be the "stick" that encourages them to approach the situation differently? Also, like wiz, I'm happy to help if there's anything I can do. I'm on latest everything Mac/OS/Logic here these days out of necessity. I can open GB files in Logic, consolidate, export, and upload them somewhere for you. But I'm also aware you're looking for a different workflow overall with these clients...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 23, 2021 11:38:46 GMT -6
All I can say is that it is easier than doing real time transfers from an ADAT Oh ADAT transfers are way faster and less painful! What you have consistently working ADAT?😎
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2021 11:41:38 GMT -6
Wait-you update your iPhone? Actually--just FWIW...if THEY bought LogicX, even if they ONLY used it for this--to open the GBX file and "export all as audio files"---exporting from DAWs is NOT straight forward--EXCEPT in Logic, IME. I mean, I have to walk long time users of multiple DAWs through getting me unadulterated WAV. I am critical of Logic at many turns--ironically, including their terrible import inconsistency...but, export? Is simple enough for any user to do it. And I mean ANY... Right on. And Logic is what, $200? Might even be worth your time/$, EmRR, if you had a copy yourself just for these purposes. I don't know, just thinking out loud here...
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2021 12:01:55 GMT -6
Yup. If your clients INSIST on delivering the latest garage band format sessions and insist that you accommodate them, then buy something that you can always update and get what you need and CHARGE them for it. Amortize your cost over a year, divide by the number of sessions you generally have to do, and charge them $x.x. Apple is not going to waver from their constant "upgrades" and "improvements". Sigh.....
Give them the choice : $X.x per song to get from GB to whatever format you prefer to work in, or deliver contiguous WAV/AIFF files and you will import for free. Tell them, here's the video on how to do it. If you can't figure it out, I'm happy to do it for $X.x. If you don't want to keep a computer up to date that will take care of their problem - and it is their problem - then find a third party who is technically savvy enough to do it for you and charge them the cost. Problem solved, and maybe your clients will educate themselves, or find more $$$ for you to do it or take it out of house. My guess is that they will learn quickly or switch to a DAW that will easily allow them to get the files. Magic. LOL.
Not trying to be an ass, but clients will continue to take advantage if you let them run all over you. Today it's garage band, tomorrow it will be something else.....
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Post by jmoose on Mar 23, 2021 12:25:31 GMT -6
Like someone said, GB isn't really a DAW as much as it is a music creation tool. People use it because of things like drummer to write songs... its easy to use and its free! Included on every Mac. It'd be a hard uphill climb to make someone like that switch.
Personally I love getting GB sessions! Made lots of money from GB projects.
Someone writes a batch of songs and wants to improve on their "demo" and make it into an album. Do some housekeeping, add real drums, get a couple session players if needed... retrack vocals... mix etc. Done it more then a few times. $$$
Funny to have a conversation like this over a free program with $200 "upgrade" to Logic. Even buying a new Mac, the computer is one of the least expensive things in my shop. Buy one, get a handful of years out of it. Then buy a new one, kick the old system down to backup status. Easy peasy. Rinse & repeat.
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Post by lpedrum on Mar 23, 2021 12:35:53 GMT -6
Let’s go back to the basics of any B-school, the customer is always right. The customers like GarageBand, somebody is going to take these files and their money, might as well be you. Is it a pain in the ass? Hell yes and unfortunately at some point you find that your going to have no choice but budget for a new Mac every year for these clients. You can’t thumb your nose at them because there are to many so you’re stuck with it. All I can say is that it is easier than doing real time transfers from an ADAT or some stupid proprietary hardware DAW. Well in this scenario the customer is wrong and needs to be schooled or charged extra. Climbing inside the head of a GarageBand user their thinking is likely to go something like this: - GB is simple and everywhere. If I can operate why can’t you? I thought you were a pro? - I need to use GB to save money on my recording budget but you unfairly want to charge me for using it! - My brother in law said he’d mix my record and he uses GB all the time! - etc etc etc Simply buying an otherwise unneeded Mac every few years for the sole purpose of receiving GB files offends me on so many levels. I’d try every other possible solution before that one.
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Post by lpedrum on Mar 23, 2021 12:46:29 GMT -6
Every time I’m pricing a new Mac for recording purposes I’m quickly into 4 figures. But for the simple tasks of file conversion etc what is the cheapest new Mac laptop that would be recommended? Maybe it’s not as big a financial hit as I assumed.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 23, 2021 12:48:54 GMT -6
Oh ADAT transfers are way faster and less painful! What you have consistently working ADAT?😎 Yes, always have. Maintenance maintenance maintenance.
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2021 13:10:16 GMT -6
- GB is simple and everywhere. If I can operate why can’t you? I thought you were a pro? - I need to use GB to save money on my recording budget but you unfairly want to charge me for using it! - My brother in law said he’d mix my record and he uses GB all the time! Simply buying an otherwise unneeded Mac every few years for the sole purpose of receiving GB files offends me on so many levels. I’d try every other possible solution before that one. If one gets offended so easily, this is not a good "business" to be in. There will be many more things much more offensive. To answer your theoretical GB users statements above my answers would be as follows. - yes GB is everywhere. Except in pro studios. I CAN operate it. I just don't have the time to fool with it unless you want to pay my hourly rate, at which point, I'll be happy to convert GB to a professional format so that you can get the full potential out of my studio / myself. - My thought is that GB will actually cost you more than it's "free" status will save you. You can agree or disagree, but you're asking me as a professional to work for free in GB with you. That's not going to happen. I'm a professional and by definition, that means I get paid. If you want me to convert it for you, I'll happily do it at my rate, or you can convert to WAV or AIFF files before you arrive here - and I'll import them into my professional DAW for......wait for it -- FREE!! Your choice. - AWESOME. I didn't know you had a brother in law who was a pro, and is as good as myself. I 100% suggest that you use him to mix your record for FREE. If I can be of any service, and if you'd like to pay my rate, please feel free to reach out. Best of luck. Bye!!!!!!! After doing this for decades, it's quite obvious to me that there are two types clients. Ones who want a professional service to make their product as good as possible who are willing to pay fairly, and the others who want things as absolutely cheap as possible where the only fairness in their minds is getting stuff for free or close to free. One creates long term relationships and creates art, and the other creates headaches and frustrations. Choose wisely.
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Post by ericn on Mar 23, 2021 13:59:14 GMT -6
- GB is simple and everywhere. If I can operate why can’t you? I thought you were a pro? - I need to use GB to save money on my recording budget but you unfairly want to charge me for using it! - My brother in law said he’d mix my record and he uses GB all the time! Simply buying an otherwise unneeded Mac every few years for the sole purpose of receiving GB files offends me on so many levels. I’d try every other possible solution before that one. If one gets offended so easily, this is not a good "business" to be in. There will be many more things much more offensive. To answer your theoretical GB users statements above my answers would be as follows. - yes GB is everywhere. Except in pro studios. I CAN operate it. I just don't have the time to fool with it unless you want to pay my hourly rate, at which point, I'll be happy to convert GB to a professional format so that you can get the full potential out of my studio / myself. - My thought is that GB will actually cost you more than it's "free" status will save you. You can agree or disagree, but you're asking me as a professional to work for free in GB with you. That's not going to happen. I'm a professional and by definition, that means I get paid. If you want me to convert it for you, I'll happily do it at my rate, or you can convert to WAV or AIFF files before you arrive here - and I'll import them into my professional DAW for......wait for it -- FREE!! Your choice. - AWESOME. I didn't know you had a brother in law who was a pro, and is as good as myself. I 100% suggest that you use him to mix your record for FREE. If I can be of any service, and if you'd like to pay my rate, please feel free to reach out. Best of luck. Bye!!!!!!! After doing this for decades, it's quite obvious to me that there are two types clients. Ones who want a professional service to make their product as good as possible who are willing to pay fairly, and the others who want things as absolutely cheap as possible where the only fairness in their minds is getting stuff for free or close to free. One creates long term relationships and creates art, and the other creates headaches and frustrations. Choose wisely. Oh come on Bill you know at this point your lucky enough to not have to deal with the typical GB user, most of us are not and this is not a time where pissing off clients makes any sense. We are a service industry, that service is defined by the client who can either walk down the street or DIY. Of course this where interns are worth their weight in gold, but since in most cases your going to find yourself going through the tracks re-labeling and doing basic QC the redundant time sink just dosen’t make sense. Do you really want to introduce a paying repeat GB client to a real DAW? HELL NO! This why they are coming to you! Bitching about the PITA of GB? HELL NO! The guy down the street or their buddy with logic is going to be a smartass and tell them how easy it was and steal your client! As I bluntly reminded our cleaning guy who was bitching about a bunch of bear spilled out n an elevator “ yeah your right they could and probably should have cleaned it up, BUT this is exactly what YOU GET PAID FOR! Yeah it sucks yeah it’s a pain but it’s also the job.”
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2021 14:12:03 GMT -6
OK Eric. If one wants to shoot for the bottom of the barrel that's exactly what they will find/get. It's easy. Shoot for the top, and you may miss, but at least you'll be able to live with yourself.... There's a fine line between "pissing off" clients, and encouraging / educating them to take their craft up a notch. Or ten.
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Post by lpedrum on Mar 23, 2021 15:41:35 GMT -6
Bill—I don’t think anyone is aiming for the bottom of the barrel here. I think we’re all just trying to figure out the best ways to navigate a music business that these days is all over the map. For better and worse DIY has infiltrated record making and distribution, and as a pro dealing with that can veer from exciting and opportunistic to complex and frustrating.
I don’t find it offensive that clients are ignorant on these topics and sometimes need to be schooled. I do find it offensive to hand my hard earned money over to Apple when I know their marketing ploy is to not make GarageBand backwards compatible for that very reason. That said, in my follow up post I did acknowledge that there may be Apple laptops that could do these sorts of tasks without breaking the bank and wonder if anyone had thoughts on that.
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Post by M57 on Mar 23, 2021 15:57:04 GMT -6
..there may be Apple laptops that could do these sorts of tasks without breaking the bank and wonder if anyone had thoughts on that. If you have no other use for a mac it seems like a pretty expensive investment for a one trick pony ..unless of course a substantial part of your income is generated by GarageBand users. Like Dr. Bill said, do the math and determine if it's worth it. If not, outsource the work. There are lots of folks here with macs that would probably do it for you. Either way, I think it's entirely reasonable to charge a nominal stem exporting fee. Make it less than what it's worth and let the client know that if they do it themselves they can save a few bucks.
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Post by ericn on Mar 23, 2021 16:04:22 GMT -6
OK Eric. If one wants to shoot for the bottom of the barrel that's exactly what they will find/get. It's easy. Shoot for the top, and you may miss, but at least you'll be able to live with yourself.... There's a fine line between "pissing off" clients, and encouraging / educating them to take their craft up a notch. Or ten. No, honestly that’s one of the most arrogant things I have read here in a while. It’s the market dictating it’s terms. As much of all of us hate it GB is probably the number 1 recording software out there, nobody who has to make their rent recording others is going to survive if they don’t take GB tracks. Hell I know of tracks on award winning number 1’s where some of the tracks were done in GB simply because somebody had their IPhone when that moment of inspiration hit. Now if we are going to talk about sinking to the bottom it’s the latest hipster cassette fashion trend, but on that score Springsteen walks in with the Porta-Studio tapes from Nebraska are you going to say no? That’s the thing most of us learned out in the real world, you take the work. Hell I can’t say who I did it for but I remember years ago importing tracks from one of those micro- cassette handhelds and that album went gold. I’ll be the first to admit the ability to be able to say no to that kind of project is one of the things I love about where I am these days. With people unable to play out live and generate some cash I keep hearing about more and more mid and even some upper end rooms closing. It sucks, but the guys who are hanging on are following the Bill Putnam rule: if it’s work we will take it. Remember the Flinstones and most of the other Hanna Barrbara cartoons were tracked at United.
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Post by Ned Ward on Mar 23, 2021 16:24:02 GMT -6
Wait - are these clients with Garageband files PAYING customers?
If so and you're getting more than $199, buy Logic and be done with it. One price and free updates forever, and you can continue to make money on musicians using a great free DAW vs. asking for cheese with your whine...
All seriousness, I don't get the complaining for a studio - if this is being done for friends or nonpaying customers maybe. Customer is always right, and if you don't want to offer services to folks using Garageband, be upfront about it.
If I'm missing something, let me know. But if I was a studio and had people with Garageband files paying me to edit/master/mix, I'd be thanking them and cashing the checks...
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2021 17:19:35 GMT -6
OK Eric. If one wants to shoot for the bottom of the barrel that's exactly what they will find/get. It's easy. Shoot for the top, and you may miss, but at least you'll be able to live with yourself.... There's a fine line between "pissing off" clients, and encouraging / educating them to take their craft up a notch. Or ten. No, honestly that’s one of the most arrogant things I have read here in a while.. Really? Porsche doesn't cater to low end clients. They do fine. As a matter of fact, they are one of if not the most profitable car manufacturers out there. 208 Rodeo doesn't cater to people with a Sizzler budget. Gulfstream doesn't cater to average folks who need to get across the country. I don't view any of them as "arrogant". At least not in terms of their business philosophy - can't speak for the individuals in the businesses. Going "high end" is smart these days. There are people out there who WANT to record / mix high end, and all they can find is folks in bedrooms with cheap laptops and DAWs. There is ROOM at the top. On the bottom, all there is is competition that will cut your throat and do things for free. If you have a plan with the way to implement it, to shoot high end is one of the smartest ways to carve out a niche in the business these days. There is no way to carve a unique niche on the bottom. There are too many options. In my "brother in law who is a pro and will do it for free" example above, in my experience, the person always comes back. Apologetic, and wanting to work again. The "free" experience is pretty much worth what you pay for it. I've personally NEVER been asked to take a Garage Band session. Ever. I have no idea why. Maybe someone is going to ask me tomorrow. But to call that arrogant Eric? Sorry, I'd have to disagree. It's a philosophy for success. Sorry if that came off arrogant. Was certainly not meant that way.
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2021 17:34:46 GMT -6
I don’t find it offensive that clients are ignorant on these topics and sometimes need to be schooled. I do find it offensive to hand my hard earned money over to Apple when I know their marketing ploy is to not make GarageBand backwards compatible for that very reason. Agree 100% with both. Especially the Apple / constant upgrades to obsolete gear / software thing.... Listen, we all have our "rules" to survive. Each of ours is different. Some that have worked out well for many is : - show up on time, or pay from the hour booked. - don't show up, pay for the time booked - no parties in the studio while we're trying to work - no drugs - no smoking in the studio - no touching microphones or grabbing and screaming into my vintage mics trying to play rockstar. and on and on and on. Everybody has their own that makes their workflow both profitable and expedient. If one studio I want to work at wants contiguous stems, I'd be happy to comply. If another wants pro tools sessions with all tracks consolidated, that's what I'd bring with me. Even if another that I want to work at wants me to bring Cubase or Logic sessions (neither of which I own), I'd make it happen. I'm not going to dog them about it or make them give me a freebie because I couldn't figure something out. Your studio, your rules. For people who don't like that, I get it. I tend to move away from - not towards those clients. That's smart business and a less frustrating life IMO. Not sure how we ended up here. I made three great suggestions to fixing the problem above. Once and for all : - politely teach your clients how to do it - give them a resource that you've vetted and sourced to get contiguous files output before arriving - if there's enough call for it and it makes financial sense, buy a computer and keep it up to date with Logic which seems like an easy solution (for the most part). make the money yourself.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2021 17:43:43 GMT -6
Wait - are these clients with Garageband files PAYING customers? If so and you're getting more than $199, buy Logic and be done with it. One price and free updates forever, and you can continue to make money on musicians using a great free DAW vs. asking for cheese with your whine... All seriousness, I don't get the complaining for a studio - if this is being done for friends or nonpaying customers maybe. Customer is always right, and if you don't want to offer services to folks using Garageband, be upfront about it. If I'm missing something, let me know. But if I was a studio and had people with Garageband files paying me to edit/master/mix, I'd be thanking them and cashing the checks... Well, to defend EmRR here, Doug's a damn good engineer and producer with longevity in a small market. He knows what he's doing, and has made some impressive records over the years, including the most recent Avett Brothers record.
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Post by donr on Mar 23, 2021 19:13:00 GMT -6
I bet there's at least a dozen posters here who could and would import, convert and prep Doug's Garage Band client sessions with LogicX and export them as .wav's from bar 1.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 20:23:07 GMT -6
No, honestly that’s one of the most arrogant things I have read here in a while.. Really? Porsche doesn't cater to low end clients. They do fine. As a matter of fact, they are one of if not the most profitable car manufacturers out there. 208 Rodeo doesn't cater to people with a Sizzler budget. Gulfstream doesn't cater to average folks who need to get across the country. I don't view any of them as "arrogant". At least not in terms of their business philosophy - can't speak for the individuals in the businesses. Going "high end" is smart these days. There are people out there who WANT to record / mix high end, and all they can find is folks in bedrooms with cheap laptops and DAWs. There is ROOM at the top. On the bottom, all there is is competition that will cut your throat and do things for free. If you have a plan with the way to implement it, to shoot high end is one of the smartest ways to carve out a niche in the business these days. There is no way to carve a unique niche on the bottom. There are too many options. In my "brother in law who is a pro and will do it for free" example above, in my experience, the person always comes back. Apologetic, and wanting to work again. The "free" experience is pretty much worth what you pay for it. I've personally NEVER been asked to take a Garage Band session. Ever. I have no idea why. Maybe someone is going to ask me tomorrow. But to call that arrogant Eric? Sorry, I'd have to disagree. It's a philosophy for success. Sorry if that came off arrogant. Was certainly not meant that way. Bill, the almost universal truth is that the artists who want to pay for mixing and mastering but refuse to pay relatively little more for a few hours to a few days of tracking cannot play or sing their own material.
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