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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 17, 2021 20:55:00 GMT -6
I’ll put it this way, if you pass on the Pioneer RM 5’s PM me the sellers info. These are supposed to have a lot in common with the latest from TAD. Would I rather a pair of KRK’s or Kahis or the Guys who brought me the TAD Exclusives take on a KEF LS50?. Mics are all about the Capsule and speakers are all about the drivers, Pioneer knows how to design and build drivers. Now adding some room correction to those Pioneers might be fun. www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/product/features/monitor-speakers/afast-technology/Supposedly they have some way of absorbing low frequencies presumably to reduce dips from room modes. This seems a bit far fetched. Is this real tech or real good marketing?
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 17, 2021 22:05:27 GMT -6
I suggest Sonarworks AND auratones or avantones. I use SW4 on my mains and turn it off when using the Avantones.
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Post by mhbunch on Mar 18, 2021 10:04:45 GMT -6
I would recommend saving up and upgrading monitors first before sonar works.
I demod Sonarworks and it wasn’t happening for me. I mostly work on NS10s and Auratones anyways, but it really made the dynaudios sound weird to me. 2cents.
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Post by nick8801 on Mar 18, 2021 10:52:40 GMT -6
A word of advice on Sonarworks....You really need to point that mic in the right place when you are measuring. The very first time I shot my old speakers I got a very weird curve from the software. Make sure you're measuring exactly where you would be listening and the mic is at ear level. I do think some reference monitors would be money well spent, but it really depends on your room. Even with Sonarworks, I just couldn't get on completely with my older monitors. Sometimes you just have to find the right speaker. After that, Sonarworks would probably be a great tool to tweak them to your liking, but it's not a fix for a bad setup.
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Post by plinker on Mar 18, 2021 11:20:05 GMT -6
Sonarworks is amazing. Flattened the response perfectly. It’s really interesting to switch it in/out and hear the difference.
They include predefined curves for a large number of popular cans too.
I find the software to be very robust and error free.
It’s definitely worth the $89 they are asking. Try the demo and see for yourself. You can use any flat/response Omni mic to shoot the room.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 18, 2021 12:07:44 GMT -6
Sonarworks is amazing. Flattened the response perfectly. It’s really interesting to switch it in/out and hear the difference. They include predefined curves for a large number of popular cans too. I find the software to be very robust and error free. It’s definitely worth the $89 they are asking. Try the demo and see for yourself. You can use any flat/response Omni mic to shoot the room. Wait... $89??? I thought it was like $250!
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 18, 2021 12:11:01 GMT -6
$89 is the upgrade to the just released version: you have to own sw4 to upgrade.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 18, 2021 12:28:00 GMT -6
OK, great advice everyone. Seriously.
I decided to order the Pioneer RM-05's AND demo Sonarworks.
Here's my logic, inspired by this awesome community.
1) I'm NOT doing this just as an excuse to buy two things instead of one. It's not GAS, I swear. Seriously. Why do you keep saying that? It's NOT!
2) The RM-05's really do appear to have a much different sonic signature than my VXT6's. In addition, while researching the speakers, I found that Pioneer direct is unloading them for $299 each. So getting these with a warranty (instead of from a used seller) pushed it over the edge. Also it allows me to return them if I hate them in my room.
3) I already own a reference mic so there's no harm in trying out the Sonarworks package. One thing that seems clear is everyone either loves it or feels "it's not for me". So seems like there's not much ambiguity and if it works for me, it's another great tool. If it doesn't, no harm no foul.
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Post by plinker on Mar 18, 2021 13:26:43 GMT -6
Sonarworks is amazing. Flattened the response perfectly. It’s really interesting to switch it in/out and hear the difference. They include predefined curves for a large number of popular cans too. I find the software to be very robust and error free. It’s definitely worth the $89 they are asking. Try the demo and see for yourself. You can use any flat/response Omni mic to shoot the room. Wait... $89??? I thought it was like $250! I'm sorry. Yes; that is just the upgrade. I'd still pay the $250!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2021 13:30:20 GMT -6
OK, great advice everyone. Seriously. I decided to order the Pioneer RM-05's AND demo Sonarworks. Here's my logic, inspired by this awesome community. 1) I'm NOT doing this just as an excuse to buy two things instead of one. It's not GAS, I swear. Seriously. Why do you keep saying that? It's NOT! 2) The RM-05's really do appear to have a much different sonic signature than my VXT6's. In addition, while researching the speakers, I found that Pioneer direct is unloading them for $299 each. So getting these with a warranty (instead of from a used seller) pushed it over the edge. Also it allows me to return them if I hate them in my room. 3) I already own a reference mic so there's no harm in trying out the Sonarworks package. One thing that seems clear is everyone either loves it or feels "it's not for me". So seems like there's not much ambiguity and if it works for me, it's another great tool. If it doesn't, no harm no foul. It's a little bit of a learning curve - but sutemwide works great for me and you just slap on the SW plug in the last insert and you're good to go. If you forget to turn it off during mixdown, it pops up a warning.
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Post by plinker on Mar 18, 2021 13:52:50 GMT -6
@johnkenn I use system-wide as well. Unless I misunderstand, there isn't a need to use the plug-in with System-wide.
Am I missing something?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 18, 2021 14:45:32 GMT -6
@johnkenn I use system-wide as well. Unless I misunderstand, there isn't a need to use the plug-in with System-wide. Am I missing something? On the Studio One Sonarworks set up video they indicated that systemwide would be pretty bad in terms of latency. Although I may have misunderstood.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 18, 2021 19:41:33 GMT -6
OK, great advice everyone. Seriously. I decided to order the Pioneer RM-05's AND demo Sonarworks. Here's my logic, inspired by this awesome community. 1) I'm NOT doing this just as an excuse to buy two things instead of one. It's not GAS, I swear. Seriously. Why do you keep saying that? It's NOT! 2) The RM-05's really do appear to have a much different sonic signature than my VXT6's. In addition, while researching the speakers, I found that Pioneer direct is unloading them for $299 each. So getting these with a warranty (instead of from a used seller) pushed it over the edge. Also it allows me to return them if I hate them in my room. 3) I already own a reference mic so there's no harm in trying out the Sonarworks package. One thing that seems clear is everyone either loves it or feels "it's not for me". So seems like there's not much ambiguity and if it works for me, it's another great tool. If it doesn't, no harm no foul. I did not realize that we talk a cheap coaxial monitor system. No offending, but don’t buy cheap coaxial monitors. It takes a lot know how to build a good sounding coaxial speaker. It will be 1.5 k each one in the end ... if it’s a serious build. If you do anything in the direction with a lot HMF information this coaxial monitor will do more harm than good. That’s why pioneer addresses DJs. For example, the tweeter needs to be mounted fixed and not as a part of the woofer, like with the German Geithain RL906. It’s a science in itself to do it right, and the German MLG are the world leaders in this field. It’s a small factory with big brains.... www.soundonsound.com/reviews/geithain-rl906
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 18, 2021 19:50:29 GMT -6
We’ll see, hoping for the best. But these have been going for $1,200 a pair until recently and have been pretty universally praised. That’s not high end but it’s not “cheap” either. I feel like the TAD people have a reasonable idea of what they’re doing so it’s encouraging that they shared some of their design with Andrew Jones and the Pioneer DJ division.
Have you had a chance to listen to the Pioneer RM series? What were your impressions?
Wasn’t Jones involved in some earlier concentric designs as well?
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 18, 2021 20:03:35 GMT -6
We’ll see, hoping for the best. But these have been going for $1,200 a pair until recently and have been pretty universally praised. That’s not high end but it’s not “cheap” either. I feel like the TAD people have a reasonable idea of what they’re doing so it’s encouraging that they shared some of their design with Andrew Jones and the Pioneer DJ division. Have you had a chance to listen to the Pioneer RM series? What were your impressions? Wasn’t Jones involved in some earlier concentric designs as well? I told you the truth it’s not my business to stop you from buying anything. I would go with my recent monitors and SW before I invest in a bad coaxial build. If money needs to go away, I would rather invest in two active Behringer C50 Auratone clones.... they teach you the belly of your mixes....
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 18, 2021 20:17:33 GMT -6
I’m just curious what makes you say the RM-05 a “bad build”. Is this based on first hand observation? That’s a pretty confident statement.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 18, 2021 21:13:44 GMT -6
I’m just curious what makes you say the RM-05 a “bad build”. Is this based on first hand observation? That’s a pretty confident statement. Ok it’s the build alone the reflex system will do port noise at higher spl levels even with a complex idea for a base reflex system with the RL 906 they weren’t able to eliminate it completely. Yes I am pretty confident to understand the basic idea and the difficulties engineers can run into with an coaxial design. We talked at the MLG factory for a few hours about 2 years ago. Without telling their secrets they did teach us basics to understand what the challenge is to get the goal. What’s the point to ask in place like this one if you only want to hear what you want to hear? You say it’s not gas but maybe it’s just this - gas. My advise sleep over it before you hit the order button. Before I bought my RL 906 a year went by....
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 18, 2021 21:38:59 GMT -6
I’m just curious what makes you say the RM-05 a “bad build”. Is this based on first hand observation? That’s a pretty confident statement. Ok it’s the build alone the reflex system will do port noise at higher spl levels even with a complex idea for a base reflex system with the RL 906 they weren’t able to eliminate it completely. Yes I am pretty confident to understand the basic idea and the difficulties engineers can run into with an coaxial design. We talked at the MLG factory for a few hours about 2 years ago. Without telling their secrets they did teach us basics to understand what the challenge is to get the goal. What’s the point to ask in place like this one if you only want to hear what you want to hear? You say it’s not gas but maybe it’s just this - gas. My advise sleep over it before you hit the order button. Before I bought my RL 906 a year went by.... Lots of assumptions here. What part of what I'm saying indicates that I only hear what I want to hear? I'm genuinely asking. The whole reason I pulled the trigger on these to begin with is that they are returnable (unlike my original target which was used from a local seller). A couple things here, for whatever it's worth. 1) There's a huge difference between buying a $2.5k set of monitors and a $600 or even $1.2k set of monitors. 2) These are intended as a different flavor than what I currently have, not as the be all, end all final monitor purchase of my lifetime. 3) I'm of the opinion that "knowing" your monitors is more important than the quality of the monitors themselves. Or at least AS important when it comes to mixing. I note that earlier in this thread you mention your NS10's, so it seems like you agree. Or would you characterize those as a super accurate monitor? I don't think anybody thinks that. The value is in knowing what you know, that's why I'm sticking with my VXT6's as well, I know what they sound like. 4) It's kind of interesting that the company that you reference also sells a pair of coax for the same price as the RM-05's and less than the RM-07's when they were still making them. Maybe they're also making non-serious builds. www.kmraudio.com/geithain-mo-1-pair.php5) Much has been made of the Phil Ward review of the RM-07s (and the 05's for that matter) over the years so I've had my eyes on these for a while. I take every review with a hefty grain of salt (hence the reason why I like to be able to return... especially with monitors and headphones) but Phil Ward is himself a speaker designer as well as a musician (as well as a regular contributor to various boards). He's also actually seen the speakers in question and commented on his experiences outside of his SOS reviews. www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pioneer-rm-05" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pioneer-rm-07 www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pioneer-rm-056) Your point about port noise is an interesting one. This is the part of the design taken from the much more expensive TAD speakers. They're not German, but they're pretty good. I don't have $60k to compare the port in the Reference One to the port in the RM-05 and RM-07 but it seems like it's at least worth seeing if they've pulled it off. But maybe it really is a "bad build", who knows? So I'm listening. I really am. But it seems a bit like you have a national bias when it comes to monitor manufacturing and particularly when it comes to coax monitors. I'm not sure what to make of that. There's lots of great stuff engineered in Germany, no doubt about that, but I think it's at least worth taking a listen to what they're doing elsewhere before dismissing it because someone told me I'd be better off with a set of Behringers. But hey... I really do appreciate your suggestion that Sonarworks might make the whole conversation superfluous. That's the beauty of how this works, it's not a marriage contract.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 19, 2021 12:14:47 GMT -6
Quick question. Is SonarworksID the newest version or is it a separate software than Sonarworks 4?
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 19, 2021 16:17:12 GMT -6
Quick question. Is SonarworksID the newest version or is it a separate software than Sonarworks 4? They’ve rebranded and upgraded it last week I think.
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Post by plinker on Mar 19, 2021 17:02:11 GMT -6
Nothing like a "rebrand" to F-up the joint!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on Mar 22, 2021 8:51:45 GMT -6
OK, great advice everyone. Seriously. I decided to order the Pioneer RM-05's AND demo Sonarworks. Here's my logic, inspired by this awesome community. 1) I'm NOT doing this just as an excuse to buy two things instead of one. It's not GAS, I swear. Seriously. Why do you keep saying that? It's NOT! 2) The RM-05's really do appear to have a much different sonic signature than my VXT6's. In addition, while researching the speakers, I found that Pioneer direct is unloading them for $299 each. So getting these with a warranty (instead of from a used seller) pushed it over the edge. Also it allows me to return them if I hate them in my room. 3) I already own a reference mic so there's no harm in trying out the Sonarworks package. One thing that seems clear is everyone either loves it or feels "it's not for me". So seems like there's not much ambiguity and if it works for me, it's another great tool. If it doesn't, no harm no foul. I did not realize that we talk a cheap coaxial monitor system. No offending, but don’t buy cheap coaxial monitors. It takes a lot know how to build a good sounding coaxial speaker. It will be 1.5 k each one in the end ... if it’s a serious build. If you do anything in the direction with a lot HMF information this coaxial monitor will do more harm than good. That’s why pioneer addresses DJs. For example, the tweeter needs to be mounted fixed and not as a part of the woofer, like with the German Geithain RL906. It’s a science in itself to do it right, and the German MLG are the world leaders in this field. It’s a small factory with big brains.... www.soundonsound.com/reviews/geithain-rl906While the price point on these is stupid low I wouldn’t call these cheap. Pioneer / TAD has one huge advantage over most speaker manufacturers they make their own drivers. They don’t just slap their name on somebody else’s they own the factories. These RM’s are the result of Pioneer / TAD steeling a couple of guys from KEF and I don’t see anybody saying anything bad about KEF these days. Other than ATC TAD is probably the name in professional drivers, very different but all those old Augsperger Mains were full of them. Pioneer is kind of like Sony in that they are both Japanese electronics giants who have never had the patience to establish themselves in pro audio but every once in a while puts out something really cool and pulls the plug because they can’t seam to move the boxes they wanted to. Other than the built in amps I think these things would probably benefit from some digital correction and some nice subs. I might just grab a pair and not tell the wife.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 22, 2021 8:58:30 GMT -6
I did not realize that we talk a cheap coaxial monitor system. No offending, but don’t buy cheap coaxial monitors. It takes a lot know how to build a good sounding coaxial speaker. It will be 1.5 k each one in the end ... if it’s a serious build. If you do anything in the direction with a lot HMF information this coaxial monitor will do more harm than good. That’s why pioneer addresses DJs. For example, the tweeter needs to be mounted fixed and not as a part of the woofer, like with the German Geithain RL906. It’s a science in itself to do it right, and the German MLG are the world leaders in this field. It’s a small factory with big brains.... www.soundonsound.com/reviews/geithain-rl906While the price point on these is stupid low I wouldn’t call these cheap. Pioneer / TAD has one huge advantage over most speaker manufacturers they make their own drivers. They don’t just slap their name on somebody else’s they own the factories. These RM’s are the result of Pioneer / TAD steeling a couple of guys from KEF and I don’t see anybody saying anything bad about KEF these days. Other than ATC TAD is probably the name in professional drivers, very different but all those old Augsperger Mains were full of them. Pioneer is kind of like Sony in that they are both Japanese electronics giants who have never had the patience to establish themselves in pro audio but every once in a while puts out something really cool and pulls the plug because they can’t seam to move the boxes they wanted to. Other than the built in amps I think these things would probably benefit from some digital correction and some nice subs. I might just grab a pair and not tell the wife.
Maybe I am wrong and too biased.... I hope you understand my point after seeing what it takes to really make this work...
But hey, if they are any good in your opinion, please let me know.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on Mar 22, 2021 9:11:31 GMT -6
I do understand, but you have to understand the lineage of these and if only there was an easy way to get real lowend out of them. The 15min I spent with them when they were first released was impressive. I just had a hunch to get everything out of them one would need 2 subs at 4 times the cost of these.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 22, 2021 11:20:17 GMT -6
While the price point on these is stupid low I wouldn’t call these cheap. Pioneer / TAD has one huge advantage over most speaker manufacturers they make their own drivers. They don’t just slap their name on somebody else’s they own the factories. These RM’s are the result of Pioneer / TAD steeling a couple of guys from KEF and I don’t see anybody saying anything bad about KEF these days. Other than ATC TAD is probably the name in professional drivers, very different but all those old Augsperger Mains were full of them. Pioneer is kind of like Sony in that they are both Japanese electronics giants who have never had the patience to establish themselves in pro audio but every once in a while puts out something really cool and pulls the plug because they can’t seam to move the boxes they wanted to. Other than the built in amps I think these things would probably benefit from some digital correction and some nice subs. I might just grab a pair and not tell the wife.
Maybe I am wrong and too biased.... I hope you understand my point after seeing what it takes to really make this work...
But hey, if they are any good in your opinion, please let me know.
I love the feedback personally and the firsthand experience from seeing some of this stuff get made in real life. I think these should be arriving today or tomorrow so I'll definitely report back. I'm not expert in speaker construction but I can take photos if whatever can be seen from the outside if anyone is interested.
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