|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 13, 2021 7:29:08 GMT -6
Guilty as charged!
When I bought the X , I tried to get the Aurora N here at same time shoot them out then decide, but N was not available, so got X.
No question X is really good and best Apollo so far.
A friend here sent me some blind files (X vs N), frankly, I picked out the N immediately: that’s also a function of I knew the X’s sound really well.
I found a demo N in the states so bought that. I immediately started recording a new song to test the N, very pleased and sold the X to help pay for the N. I used OB when tracking so don’t miss the unison, but also lost 6 sharc chips in the X but I have an octo, so far so good in terms of UA dsp usage.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Mar 13, 2021 8:29:11 GMT -6
I never found internal preamps to be great. So, when I needed more channels, I went with a Lynx Aurora 16. Great drivers and great support. I wish I could afford the newer one, but what I have isn't stopping me from making music.
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Mar 13, 2021 8:34:25 GMT -6
I just wish the Lynx offered a bit more in terms of I/O. Why not at least throw an ADAT or SPDIF in there? Stereo main outs woulda been nice. The Motu offers so much in terms of connectivity. There’s even midi I/O on the 828ES!
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 13, 2021 9:11:36 GMT -6
Sound quality vs I/o, what’s a gear head to do ?!  |
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Mar 13, 2021 9:21:59 GMT -6
Sound quality vs I/o, what’s a gear head to do ?! Why not both? But I actually think Aurora N has both. 16 ins and outs is more than most interfaces, and you can always add a ADAT card of whatever you need. Aurora N is the best interface out there today, imo. The price is fair for what you get. |
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Mar 13, 2021 9:24:07 GMT -6
I just wish the Lynx offered a bit more in terms of I/O. Why not at least throw an ADAT or SPDIF in there? Stereo main outs woulda been nice. The Motu offers so much in terms of connectivity. There’s even midi I/O on the 828ES! The Stereo Main outs is one of the reasons I've always hesitated with the Lynx. You either need some kind of mixer or you need to loose a pair of channels for monitoring. Still, I think when I'm ready to upgrade I'll be moving on from the Apollo. I just hate console. |
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 13, 2021 9:32:29 GMT -6
Pretty well true of everything except X Apollo ?
Or by a 2 Channel Lynx and add to your current system?
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 13, 2021 12:11:25 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Mar 13, 2021 12:52:33 GMT -6
To the OP, if I were starting from scratch two things I would consider:
1) Presononus Quantum 4848. Yes, that many channels. Add a small mixer and a small patchbay for direct monitoring if needed.
2) RME HDSPe cards. You can stack them. Order them from Thomann and they're not that expensive, but it is overseas shipping. Lowest possible latency in the industry, something I am keen about. Although the Lynx PCIe cards are good too. Add 16 channels of AD/DA from whatever you like. I would use maybe a couple Clarett OctoPre, Presonus DP88, or Tascam 8p Dyna. Although there are other options like Ferrofish for example.
I would ignore interface preamps completely, like others have said. Do the grunt work and get your outboard mic pres built and set up, they will dust any interface pre. Or just buy a utility preamp like the Yamaha MLA8 which will be equal if not most likely better than any interface preamp.
Just my two cents. I'm all about top grade interfacing (speed, stability) and mid grade conversion since I don't lose sleep over high end conversion, other than the main DAC, where no expense should be spared. Although there are deals on those now too.
|
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Mar 13, 2021 13:44:39 GMT -6
I didn't know the Quantum 4848 was thing, thanks for sharing! Do they really mean 32 channels IO through thunberbolt at 96kHz out of the box? A lot of marketing say "X amount of channels" but they really mean including ADAT, SPDIF etc, at reduced sample rates.. My issue with ADAT boxes is then you need multiple ADAT IO to get higher sample rates, which means extra money spent. So this looks interesting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Mar 13, 2021 14:04:48 GMT -6
I didn't know the Quantum 4848 was thing, thanks for sharing! Do they really mean 32 channels IO through thunberbolt at 96kHz out of the box? A lot of marketing say "X amount of channels" but they really mean including ADAT, SPDIF etc, at reduced sample rates.. My issue with ADAT boxes is then you need multiple ADAT IO to get higher sample rates, which means extra money spent. So this looks interesting. Yeah so if you look at the back panel you will see it all 32 analog inputs, 32 analog outputs, in 1U, I'm assuming you can run a 192Khz session if you like to. And the extra 16 inputs you'll get via ADAT, or you can run them SMUX and have 8 extra inputs/outputs, I assume, at higher sample rates. IMO this is on the same level as MOTU, Focusrite, UA, and so on. This is not Lynx, Burl, Apogee, etc. I personally don't have a problem there but people have preferences about these sorts of things. You will need some sort of direct monitoring setup though if you want that, this is just straight into your DAW and you can only monitor through the DAW. It's not a big deal, but it's worth mentioning if you're new to Quantum. Just a question of a few milliseconds of latency, mainly, if that does or doesn't matter to you. I record on Quantum daily and I hardly ever use my direct monitor rig, mostly I go through the DAW. This is also a situation similar to Focusrite. This is the "high end" Presonus interface, it doesn't compare to their cheap stuff. There are tiers of performance with brands like these. |
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 15:00:47 GMT -6
I'd rather spend a little more and have CAPI preamps over any interface preamps. Seems like a no brainer, especially if you have the skills/time to build. Yeah, or any of the (more than decent) non-boutique four channel boxes out there could help you hit your budget. Thanks notneeson and jcoutu1. I built six CAPI preamps a while back and they are wonderful. I could build more, but it requires time, money, and investing in more chassis space to put them in. I've looked at prebuilt 4-channel preamps but none seem to hit the right price-for-quality mark. |
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 15:02:23 GMT -6
I just wish the Lynx offered a bit more in terms of I/O. Why not at least throw an ADAT or SPDIF in there? Stereo main outs woulda been nice. The Motu offers so much in terms of connectivity. There’s even midi I/O on the 828ES! Agreed. Not only is Lynx beyond my price tolerance, it is lacking many of the connectivity and usability features of other choices like MOTU. |
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 15:21:45 GMT -6
I have the same requirements, and I landed on a Motu 16a/828ES combo. Picked both up used and have a total of 1725 into the combo. I have a nice selection of outboard pre's, so I don't really need the interface pre's on the 828ES, but they are decent enough, I guess. Get a four banger like a Sebatron or build some CAPI's or an Access 312, or...there's so many choices these days. A couple of things to note. The Apollo 8p is not a 16 input device. It's 8 mic/line/DI OR 8 line ins, not both. If you need 16 channels of AD, then you'll need the X16. The Motu 16a doesn't have a main stereo out, so you'll burn two channels on monitoring, unless you have a dedicated monitoring DA that you can input via digital. I think the X16 does have a dedicated stereo DA. UAD likes to brag about the X16 having superior DA, but it's really only on the main outs. The line outs have the same DA as the others. I have considered a Lynx Aurora (N), but they are expensive. I just don't know if it's going to be THAT much better than the Motu stuff. And whenever someone says something 'blows it out of the water' (no offense Dan), I usually take that hyperbole with a grain of salt. It could very well be true, but one persons 'blows it out of the water' could be another persons 'minuscule difference'. The general rule of thumb these days is conversion is all good once you get away from the rock bottom cheap stuff. This sounds like a good option for me also. Even combining an 828pre-es with an 828es (which I assume is possible?) would work as it would give me total 10 mic/line + 8 line inputs. I also agree that Lynx is too expensive (for my application) and I understand from what Dan says that the quality of the Lynx A/D would technically be much better, but I can't justify the cost. On top of which, I really like the connectivity/usability features offered by the MOTU devices. Thanks for enlightening me about the Apollo. I was referring to the x8p model, but it also seems to only have max 8 analog in. I simple assumed the DB25 would add 8 more inputs, but you are right, it is simply an option way to connect to the same 8 input channels. Disappointing, especially given the very high price of that unit. |
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 15:53:36 GMT -6
To the OP, if I were starting from scratch two things I would consider: 1) Presononus Quantum 4848. Yes, that many channels. Add a small mixer and a small patchbay for direct monitoring if needed. 2) RME HDSPe cards. You can stack them. Order them from Thomann and they're not that expensive, but it is overseas shipping. Lowest possible latency in the industry, something I am keen about. Although the Lynx PCIe cards are good too. Add 16 channels of AD/DA from whatever you like. I would use maybe a couple Clarett OctoPre, Presonus DP88, or Tascam 8p Dyna. Although there are other options like Ferrofish for example. I would ignore interface preamps completely, like others have said. Do the grunt work and get your outboard mic pres built and set up, they will dust any interface pre. Or just buy a utility preamp like the Yamaha MLA8 which will be equal if not most likely better than any interface preamp. Just my two cents. I'm all about top grade interfacing (speed, stability) and mid grade conversion since I don't lose sleep over high end conversion, other than the main DAC, where no expense should be spared. Although there are deals on those now too. Thanks, however, I am not in the PCIe world anymore. I currently have a Mac Pro late 2013 'trash can', and not sure what my next upgrade would be. So, for low latency, I am hoping to find an interface with TB3 or TB3, with optional USB2/3 just in case I need it. That's why MOTU looks good to me. Regarding PreSonus, I have always had a weird feeling about that brand. A friend of mine had a lot of problems with a Presonus mixer driver, and I've read comments from many people questioning audio quality. Hard for me to judge, so they're not on my list. I agree about interface preamps, they will always be a compromise, might be best to go all outboard. I was not aware of that Yam MLA8. Good affordable option to consider, thanks. Seems like there's a few used Sytek kicking around too. |
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 16:03:30 GMT -6
I just wanted to thank everyone for all of your generous comments. The quick responses have been far more than I had hoped, and all have been extremely valuable. I had not participated in RGO much until now, but I can see it is a great community of experienced and articulate folks. And the tone of discussion is quite upbeat and refreshing compared to that 'other popular forum'. Much appreciated, I'll be back!
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 13, 2021 16:32:21 GMT -6
First round is on you !
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Mar 13, 2021 16:41:20 GMT -6
I have the same requirements, and I landed on a Motu 16a/828ES combo. Picked both up used and have a total of 1725 into the combo. I have a nice selection of outboard pre's, so I don't really need the interface pre's on the 828ES, but they are decent enough, I guess. Get a four banger like a Sebatron or build some CAPI's or an Access 312, or...there's so many choices these days. A couple of things to note. The Apollo 8p is not a 16 input device. It's 8 mic/line/DI OR 8 line ins, not both. If you need 16 channels of AD, then you'll need the X16. The Motu 16a doesn't have a main stereo out, so you'll burn two channels on monitoring, unless you have a dedicated monitoring DA that you can input via digital. I think the X16 does have a dedicated stereo DA. UAD likes to brag about the X16 having superior DA, but it's really only on the main outs. The line outs have the same DA as the others. I have considered a Lynx Aurora (N), but they are expensive. I just don't know if it's going to be THAT much better than the Motu stuff. And whenever someone says something 'blows it out of the water' (no offense Dan), I usually take that hyperbole with a grain of salt. It could very well be true, but one persons 'blows it out of the water' could be another persons 'minuscule difference'. The general rule of thumb these days is conversion is all good once you get away from the rock bottom cheap stuff. This sounds like a good option for me also. Even combining an 828pre-es with an 828es (which I assume is possible?) would work as it would give me total 10 mic/line + 8 line inputs. You can totally combine two 828ES's. You would get a total of 16 AD/DA I/O, plus 4 mic pre AD ins, plus all the digital I/O, and stereo outs on each and 4 x headphones. You see, it's really hard to deny the flexibility of the Motu ES interfaces at the prices they sell for. Dag. |
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 16:43:58 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by fusionhead on Mar 13, 2021 16:55:59 GMT -6
This sounds like a good option for me also. Even combining an 828pre-es with an 828es (which I assume is possible?) would work as it would give me total 10 mic/line + 8 line inputs. You can totally combine two 828ES's. You would get a total of 16 AD/DA I/O, plus 4 mic pre AD ins, plus all the digital I/O, and stereo outs on each and 4 x headphones. You see, it's really hard to deny the flexibility of the Motu ES interfaces at the prices they sell for. Dag. That's good to know. But I thought the 828es had 2 mic/line inputs plus 8 TRS line inputs = 10 inputs, so combining two 828es = 20 inputs (4 mic, 16 line), no? I looked in the manual, and the example screen capture of the mixer matrix shows the two mic inputs and 8 additional analog inputs as separately assignable channels. Or are saying, like the Apollo, the 2 mic inputs and 2 of the TRS line inputs are sharing the same A/D channels? |
|
|
|
Post by sopwith on Mar 13, 2021 17:04:24 GMT -6
When I designed my converters, I built in a stuffing option on the PCB to use the TI DAC chips in either their stereo (one chip, stereo out) or dual mono (a chip for each L and R) configs. I never believed that they would be very different in a functional environment but there were some vocal people here on the forum as well as IRL that simply couldn't stand the idea of the single chips being used in stereo mode. They MUST be used in dual mono mode for best noise and resolution I was told by people who claimed to have golden ears. I tried both. Couldn't hear a difference. Tracked sweeps from each one and they nulled almost perfectly. Either my A/D was masking the differences or there wasn't enough difference to matter. Nulling down to -100 and beyond is practically nothing. I acquiesced and did the two-chip solution but nobody would have noticed if I hadn't. A lot of times these types of specs are normalized out of what is essentially noise. Mathematical results that nobody would ever attain. Yeah I’m with you there. Most of this stuff past a certain level of quality sounds more different than better. Nobody for the life of me can tell me that because the Bricasti M1 has two ad1955 and three power supplies (L, R, and digital), that that’s why it sounds so different from the Lavry DA11 (one AD1955 and different AD opamps from the Bricasti), and the Dangerous Converts 2 (one AD1955, OPA2134, and THAT buffers). They’re all awesome and were more likely all just voiced differently based on the preferences of their designers. But there does seem to be a big difference in detail with cheaper chips like the ak and cirrus codecs vs the CS 4398 and AK 4399 and 4490. Whether this is due to the products being more cheaply made altogether, worse filters, worse parts used in the ics, I have no idea. The RME ADI-2 Pro next to the Firefaces is not subtle.
Dan, interesting to hear your take on the different models of RME. I'm keen to stick with RME for a new thunderbolt/usb3 solution given that my current box has been rock solid and I really like Totalmix, but I need at least 8in/16out. Which of their converters/interfaces have acceptable conversion in your opinion? A/D quality probably more important than D/A for me.
That said, the Motu 828es gives a ton of i/o for the money, so I've been looking at that since seeing this thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 17:14:41 GMT -6
Yeah I’m with you there. Most of this stuff past a certain level of quality sounds more different than better. Nobody for the life of me can tell me that because the Bricasti M1 has two ad1955 and three power supplies (L, R, and digital), that that’s why it sounds so different from the Lavry DA11 (one AD1955 and different AD opamps from the Bricasti), and the Dangerous Converts 2 (one AD1955, OPA2134, and THAT buffers). They’re all awesome and were more likely all just voiced differently based on the preferences of their designers. But there does seem to be a big difference in detail with cheaper chips like the ak and cirrus codecs vs the CS 4398 and AK 4399 and 4490. Whether this is due to the products being more cheaply made altogether, worse filters, worse parts used in the ics, I have no idea. The RME ADI-2 Pro next to the Firefaces is not subtle.
Dan, interesting to hear your take on the different models of RME. I'm keen to stick with RME for a new thunderbolt/usb3 solution given that my current box has been rock solid and I really like Totalmix, but I need at least 8in/16out. Which of their converters/interfaces have acceptable conversion in your opinion? A/D quality probably more important than D/A for me.
That said, the Motu 828es gives a ton of i/o for the money, so I've been looking at that since seeing this thread.
DA? RME ADI-2 Pro, the DA only version, and the one that’s AD and DA with no dsp or usb. Honestly, why not just a Fireface UFX+ and then get something like a Lavry Black used to monitor off of? That would get you great drivers and great sound. |
|
|
|
Post by sopwith on Mar 13, 2021 17:17:51 GMT -6
Dan, interesting to hear your take on the different models of RME. I'm keen to stick with RME for a new thunderbolt/usb3 solution given that my current box has been rock solid and I really like Totalmix, but I need at least 8in/16out. Which of their converters/interfaces have acceptable conversion in your opinion? A/D quality probably more important than D/A for me.
That said, the Motu 828es gives a ton of i/o for the money, so I've been looking at that since seeing this thread.
DA? RME ADI-2 Pro, the DA only version, and the one that’s AD and DA with no dsp or usb. Honestly, why not just a Fireface UFX+ and then get something like a Lavry DA 11 used to monitor off of?
Thank you, that might be exactly what I end up doing. So the issue with the FF line is the DA, rather than an issue with the AD? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 17:20:08 GMT -6
DA? RME ADI-2 Pro, the DA only version, and the one that’s AD and DA with no dsp or usb. Honestly, why not just a Fireface UFX+ and then get something like a Lavry DA 11 used to monitor off of?
Thank you, that might be exactly what I end up doing. So the issue with the FF line is the DA, rather than an issue with the AD? The AD still has a sound but with a bad or etched DA, you can’t hear what you’re doing. I suggested the Lavry because it’s a 180 degree turn in the opposite direction from RME. |
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 13, 2021 18:35:03 GMT -6
Yeah, or any of the (more than decent) non-boutique four channel boxes out there could help you hit your budget. Thanks notneeson and jcoutu1. I built six CAPI preamps a while back and they are wonderful. I could build more, but it requires time, money, and investing in more chassis space to put them in. I've looked at prebuilt 4-channel preamps but none seem to hit the right price-for-quality mark. Iron Age 4 channel is 1200 bucks or something I think and should be pretty rad. |
|
