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Post by plinker on Dec 14, 2021 7:38:23 GMT -6
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Post by Locomotive Audio on Dec 16, 2021 12:58:05 GMT -6
Hi!, Has anyone compared COIL CA70 to Locomotive WT-72?. Best regards, Daniel. I have! I just tried the 72 this week end. I have the Coils. The 72 is brighter, faster. It has a very noticeable upper mid bump that gives sources a nice tube sheen and it's a little more in your face, it's not a thick preamp. The freq response reminded me of what a Daking would sound like if it were a tube preamp. It's definitely about as different from the Coil as can be. It piqued my interest and I may get one in the future. What it isn't is a V72. I use V72s ( and V76s ) all the time and the WT is quite a bit brighter compared to the 72 and doesn't have the thick mids. The Mercury I used to own is closer to the V sound, but still not quite there. The Coils are definitely not voiced for ultra modern synth based productions. The WT would fit much better. One thing I'll add is that I don't find the Coils to be that vintagey sounding if gain staged right. They can sound very open. I've noticed on forums that people associate Hifi with brighter, I don't really hear things that way and the CA70 circuit captures sounds in a way that sounds much closer to what my ear hears when I'm standing in the middle of the room with the instruments. Thanks for your review, Brice! What version of the WT-72 were you using? Was it the new grayface faceplate?
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Post by bricejchandler on Dec 16, 2021 15:55:55 GMT -6
Thanks for your review, Brice! What version of the WT-72 were you using? Was it the new grayface faceplate? The blackface one! Btw I really hope that didn't come out as a negative review, I thought it sounded really good. It not sounding like an identical copy of the V72 to me isn't a bad thing!
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Post by Locomotive Audio on Dec 17, 2021 9:25:09 GMT -6
The blackface one! Btw I really hope that didn't come out as a negative review, I thought it sounded really good. It not sounding like an identical copy of the V72 to me isn't a bad thing! Hey, no offense taken whatsoever. In fact, that has been the consensus regarding the blackface since it was released a few years ago. I was both happy and unhappy about it. Happy that it could be used in modern sounding production, especially on sources like vocals that needed some sheen (without sounding harsh). But now, a few years later, I also wanted to push it closer to its inspiration. After all, it is a Weight Tank product. So, with the latest grayface version, I changed things up to get more muscle out of the sound. Both the blackface and the grayface use the same amp circuit, but only change the way the gain is made (input attenuation in the blackface vs input attenuation & negative feedback in the grayface). You can read about it on the website. By splitting the difference in the two options, now more signal hits that first tube, just like the original V72. This is the biggest thing. That and changing the output transformer have yielded results with a thicker sound, while not being distorted. After all, the V72 designers were not looking for a distortion monster! They were looking to make a clean tube amp given the technology. By today's standards with available solid state, the V72 is considered colored, which is pretty funny... it has less than 0.1% distortion... haha What I love about the V72 circuit is that it is like a big handshake between the two tubes, almost acting as one gain stage. They work together as one to make the sound we hear. If the balance is off at the component level or if there isn't as much signal running through them, we don't hear them the same as what the original 34dB modules sound like. Anyway, I'm happy to say that the latest grayface is as close as I will be able to get the sound to the original, while offering multiple gain settings. I am certainly proud of both versions though. :-)
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2021 9:48:07 GMT -6
The blackface one! Btw I really hope that didn't come out as a negative review, I thought it sounded really good. It not sounding like an identical copy of the V72 to me isn't a bad thing! Hey, no offense taken whatsoever. In fact, that has been the consensus regarding the blackface since it was released a few years ago. I was both happy and unhappy about it. Happy that it could be used in modern sounding production, especially on sources like vocals that needed some sheen (without sounding harsh). But now, a few years later, I also wanted to push it closer to its inspiration. After all, it is a Weight Tank product. So, with the latest grayface version, I changed things up to get more muscle out of the sound. Both the blackface and the grayface use the same amp circuit, but only change the way the gain is made (input attenuation in the blackface vs input attenuation & negative feedback in the grayface). You can read about it on the website. By splitting the difference in the two options, now more signal hits that first tube, just like the original V72. This is the biggest thing. That and changing the output transformer have yielded results with a thicker sound, while not being distorted. After all, the V72 designers were not looking for a distortion monster! They were looking to make a clean tube amp given the technology. By today's standards with available solid state, the V72 is considered colored, which is pretty funny... it has less than 0.1% distortion... haha What I love about the V72 circuit is that it is like a big handshake between the two tubes, almost acting as one gain stage. They work together as one to make the sound we hear. If the balance is off at the component level or if there isn't as much signal running through them, we don't hear them the same as what the original 34dB modules sound like. Anyway, I'm happy to say that the latest grayface is as close as I will be able to get the sound to the original, while offering multiple gain settings. I am certainly proud of both versions though. :-) Thanks for the wonderful comparison Eric!!! Sounds like I will need a pair of the gray faces also. But the black faces are going NOWHERE!!! They are absolutely fantastic.
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Post by Locomotive Audio on Dec 17, 2021 10:27:40 GMT -6
Hey, no offense taken whatsoever. In fact, that has been the consensus regarding the blackface since it was released a few years ago. I was both happy and unhappy about it. Happy that it could be used in modern sounding production, especially on sources like vocals that needed some sheen (without sounding harsh). But now, a few years later, I also wanted to push it closer to its inspiration. After all, it is a Weight Tank product. So, with the latest grayface version, I changed things up to get more muscle out of the sound. Both the blackface and the grayface use the same amp circuit, but only change the way the gain is made (input attenuation in the blackface vs input attenuation & negative feedback in the grayface). You can read about it on the website. By splitting the difference in the two options, now more signal hits that first tube, just like the original V72. This is the biggest thing. That and changing the output transformer have yielded results with a thicker sound, while not being distorted. After all, the V72 designers were not looking for a distortion monster! They were looking to make a clean tube amp given the technology. By today's standards with available solid state, the V72 is considered colored, which is pretty funny... it has less than 0.1% distortion... haha What I love about the V72 circuit is that it is like a big handshake between the two tubes, almost acting as one gain stage. They work together as one to make the sound we hear. If the balance is off at the component level or if there isn't as much signal running through them, we don't hear them the same as what the original 34dB modules sound like. Anyway, I'm happy to say that the latest grayface is as close as I will be able to get the sound to the original, while offering multiple gain settings. I am certainly proud of both versions though. :-) Thanks for the wonderful comparison Eric!!! Sounds like I will need a pair of the gray faces also. But the black faces are going NOWHERE!!! They are absolutely fantastic. Cool Bill! I'll have to get you set up soon... Inventory, as you know is a nightmare right now. 2022, please by nicer to us all!
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Post by recordingengineer on Dec 17, 2021 11:07:23 GMT -6
Snare samples I’ve heard with Weight Tank seems to be a thing to my ears. Can anyone with one confirm this?
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2021 11:24:31 GMT -6
Thanks for the wonderful comparison Eric!!! Sounds like I will need a pair of the gray faces also. But the black faces are going NOWHERE!!! They are absolutely fantastic. Cool Bill! I'll have to get you set up soon... Inventory, as you know is a nightmare right now. 2022, please by nicer to us all!AMEN!!!! Your lips to God's ears Eric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm patient. I can wait.
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Post by bricejchandler on Dec 17, 2021 12:08:02 GMT -6
The blackface one! Btw I really hope that didn't come out as a negative review, I thought it sounded really good. It not sounding like an identical copy of the V72 to me isn't a bad thing! Hey, no offense taken whatsoever. In fact, that has been the consensus regarding the blackface since it was released a few years ago. I was both happy and unhappy about it. Happy that it could be used in modern sounding production, especially on sources like vocals that needed some sheen (without sounding harsh). But now, a few years later, I also wanted to push it closer to its inspiration. After all, it is a Weight Tank product. So, with the latest grayface version, I changed things up to get more muscle out of the sound. Both the blackface and the grayface use the same amp circuit, but only change the way the gain is made (input attenuation in the blackface vs input attenuation & negative feedback in the grayface). You can read about it on the website. By splitting the difference in the two options, now more signal hits that first tube, just like the original V72. This is the biggest thing. That and changing the output transformer have yielded results with a thicker sound, while not being distorted. After all, the V72 designers were not looking for a distortion monster! They were looking to make a clean tube amp given the technology. By today's standards with available solid state, the V72 is considered colored, which is pretty funny... it has less than 0.1% distortion... haha What I love about the V72 circuit is that it is like a big handshake between the two tubes, almost acting as one gain stage. They work together as one to make the sound we hear. If the balance is off at the component level or if there isn't as much signal running through them, we don't hear them the same as what the original 34dB modules sound like. Anyway, I'm happy to say that the latest grayface is as close as I will be able to get the sound to the original, while offering multiple gain settings. I am certainly proud of both versions though. :-) Interesting! I'll see if I can arrange a demo. I'm looking for a complement to the Coils and I've been testing quite a few tube preamps and the Weight Tank was one of the ones I really liked but I found it a bit bright for my taste so the Greyface sounds like it could be the ticket. I also like the fact that the price is reasonable!
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 17, 2021 13:19:03 GMT -6
Hi!, Has anyone compared COIL CA70 to Locomotive WT-72?. Best regards, Daniel. Topology wise, the comparison would be the Coil 286 vs the WT-72 as they're following the Telefunken 72 style pre's IIRC. The Coil CA -70 is to my ears similar a Gates SA-70. The thing that makes the Coils unique and incredibly useful and flexible is the variable Negative Feedback control. A U47 > Coil CA-70 > a vari MU compressor (like a STA Level) is a thing of sheer beauty imho. I've always wanted a Mercury 72 but now having used the Coil CA-70 for a while I'm sold on the idea of a Coil 286 as the NF is just so darn powerful for shaping the tone and response of the pre-amp. I find myself wondering why all tube pre-amps don't have a variable NF knob - though I'm sure they're are technical reasons why.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 17, 2021 15:31:06 GMT -6
Lots of the euro stuff does. Manley 40dB’s do. Many USA 1960’s do but as fixed resistor choices for certain gain amounts, almost no one changed gain in the preamp itself until the 1970’s as a matter of practice, even with SS. Older preamps don't have any negative feedback at all, nothing to vary. A Coil/Gates has very little in the first place, compared to the average design approach. There are design approaches that prohibit use of feedback also; you wouldn't introduce it.
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Post by hadaja on Dec 17, 2021 19:52:02 GMT -6
Man this has been awesome reading on the last two pages. I will have to re read it very slowly all over again but great info. Will have to spend some time in studio practising some of these ideas. Thanks heaps guys for sharing your knowledge.
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