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Post by ehrenebbage on Jun 17, 2021 16:40:51 GMT -6
Don't know why I didn't do this sooner, but I just skimmed through that COVID website disclaimer page. Among the rest of the legalese, it says:
- While clinical experience and research to-date is promising, these products have not been proven to be safe and effective by prospective, randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled studies acceptable to US medical associations and regulatory bodies.
- Patients using the preventive protocols should follow all measures recommended by public health authorities, including social distancing, masking and vaccinations as appropriate.
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Post by Quint on Jun 17, 2021 16:53:26 GMT -6
Don't know why I didn't do this sooner, but I just skimmed through that COVID website disclaimer page. Among the rest of the legalese, it says: - While clinical experience and research to-date is promising, these products have not been proven to be safe and effective by prospective, randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled studies acceptable to US medical associations and regulatory bodies. - Patients using the preventive protocols should follow all measures recommended by public health authorities, including social distancing, masking and vaccinations as appropriate. Well there's some CYA for you. I believe Matt used the word "irresponsible" earlier in this thread... |
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Post by drbill on Jun 17, 2021 17:34:24 GMT -6
Anyone care to comment on their take on the "bio-ethics" side of things?
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 17, 2021 17:38:49 GMT -6
No sir, I don't have to credit or discredit any of these people. That's not how it works. They could all be wrong, they could all be right, but that's not the standard. Ad hominem is a fallacy - you're right. But so is ab auctoritate. Authorities need to provide evidence as much as everyone else. You say there's evidentiary stuff throughout - are there links to papers where we can read the same evidence? I'm 30 minutes in and there has been zero so far. I'm not sure how you do links on a video, but perhaps there are links below the video in the youtube text? At any rate, they are quoting out of actual studies. Again, you can either choose to believe them, discredit them, or hunt down what they are quoting yourself and make a better educated decision yourself. You can put as many links as you want in the text on youtube. Or you can put dynamic click-throughs. Or you can direct people to research. I believe that they're quoting out of studies, I'd love to read them. But I can't find them, so what am I supposed to do? I mean look at what you're saying - you're saying here's some guys talking on the video, one of whom is a legit, bonafide expert who is being pretty specific about his claims, and one is a full on red-pilled guy making lots of less responsible statements. They refer to studies, but don't actually give authors names or journals in which they're published. So my choice is a) believe them outright (why would I do that? for anyone?) b) discredit them (why would I do that? are they untrustworthy for some reason?) c) do a bunch of legwork to find unnamed papers which may not even exist ... do you see that this is an unreasonable suggestion? |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jun 17, 2021 17:47:02 GMT -6
Don't know why I didn't do this sooner, but I just skimmed through that COVID website disclaimer page. Among the rest of the legalese, it says: - While clinical experience and research to-date is promising, these products have not been proven to be safe and effective by prospective, randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled studies acceptable to US medical associations and regulatory bodies. - Patients using the preventive protocols should follow all measures recommended by public health authorities, including social distancing, masking and vaccinations as appropriate. Well there's some CYA for you. I believe Matt used the word "irresponsible" earlier in this thread... It's interesting. I agree with a lot of what's been said; gotta get second and third opinions, gotta try to be informed to make sure we understand what we are being told and by whom, can't just take for granted that those with a profit motive are looking out for our best interest, etc. But it looks to me like there's a fair amount of confirmation bias happening. People are drawn to the opinions that support their own, of course, but I wonder if they are examining those opinions very carefully. In this single thread I've been introduced to a man who is certain that we don't need anything but vitamins to combat the virus (he amassed a net worth of 100 million dollars selling vitamins among other things). I've been introduced to Dr. Kory, who insists that ivermectin is something of a miracle drug but struggles to provide hard proof. Are they both right? Maybe. How do we know? As a matter of urgent global public policy, should we have abandoned the long understood, effective science of vaccines in favor of the unproven theories of the vitamin guy or the ivermectin guy? Decision makers had to choose a path forward. Why would they choose to focus efforts on a bunch of unproven theories when they knew they could develop a vaccine? |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 17, 2021 17:50:32 GMT -6
Anyone care to comment on their take on the "bio-ethics" side of things? I did a little but I can expand a bit. People should have informed consent. I think the FDA and others are working hard to provide informed consent about the vaccines, which is why the trials were conducted in the open, all of the applications packages and reports and committee information is public record on the FDA website, and all the info in places like VAERS is open to the public. I think treatments like ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine should be subject to the same standard of disclosure in informed consent - to whit, your doctor should make it clear to you that there is no clinical evidence that these drugs are effective in treating covid 19, the FDA says you should not use ivermectin to treat covid 19, and the FDA revoked the emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine last year after it failed to be shown to be safe and effective to treat covid19 in multiple clinical trials. If you want to read a good discussion about the topic as it pertains to how these vaccines were developed you can read this. I think it is an important discussion, and it merits a thorough understanding of the risk of action and inaction. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7575135/ |
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Post by drbill on Jun 17, 2021 18:06:25 GMT -6
I'm not sure how you do links on a video, but perhaps there are links below the video in the youtube text? At any rate, they are quoting out of actual studies. Again, you can either choose to believe them, discredit them, or hunt down what they are quoting yourself and make a better educated decision yourself. ... do you see that this is an unreasonable suggestion? nope. totally reasonable to me. A bunch of the stuff sounded like they were talking to "people in the know" who obviously knew what they were talking about. Never seen this guys podcast before. Maybe if I knew him/of him I'd be more clued into what they were talking about. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 17, 2021 18:21:51 GMT -6
Mostly off topic, but here's my current story.
Monday morning I had my (now weekly instead of 2x per week) Covid test for work. Came back negative again.
Anyway, all day Monday I was sneezing up a storm and starting to get congested. Monday night, I had my usual session and bailed out 2 hours early because I was really starting to feel like shit.
Tuesday morning I woke up massively congested. Took the day off from the day job and canceled my session for that night. Slept til 1pm, was up til about 9, went back to bed. Smoking down generic dayquil, zinc, and vit d.
Wednesday morning, woke up feeling even worse. Congestion moved into my chest, along with my head. Hacking shit out. Chills/hot flashes. Headache. Had a 101 fever. Took the day off from the day job again and canceled both Wed and Thursday night sessions. More generic dayquil, zinc, vit d, and added in some musinex. Slept most of the day.
Woke up today, feeling slightly better. Less congestion in the head and chest, but still not good. Pounding headaches on and off all day long. Same meds. Basically been living off soup, water, and Gatorade all week.
If I wake up like this tomorrow, I'm calling my doc for advice. It doesn't sound like covid based on my symptoms, and I had the shots, but damn I feel like a bag of shit that was lit on fire.
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Post by seawell on Jun 17, 2021 18:28:58 GMT -6
I'm traveling so can't jump too far back in the convo at the moment...though I'd love to. Just wanted to quickly point out the case for ivermectin is that it has been used safely for 40 years to the tune of somewhere between 4-5 billion doses so if it is helpful at all, doctors should be allowed to try it for covid. If it doesn't help with covid, well then how much different is it from the current available treatments? We have 4 decades to understand any long term side effects of ivermectin. We don't have the benefit of that time table yet with the vaccines(not just these vaccines but mRNA vaccines as a whole).
They actually do address in the video the lack of motivation and financial backing to do large scale studies for covid on drugs like ivermectin and HCQ that already have 4-5 decades of studies and data and are both out of patent. There just hasn't been the interest or money there to make it happen.
The complaint of some doctors on the front lines is that you tell people to stay home, with no treatment at all until their lips turn blue basically before you'll admit them to the hospital. They feel we can and should do better than that. Anyway...many more thoughts to come at some point. I've been doing a deep dive on vaers and have found some interesting info.
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Post by Quint on Jun 17, 2021 18:49:35 GMT -6
... do you see that this is an unreasonable suggestion? nope. totally reasonable to me. A bunch of the stuff sounded like they were talking to "people in the know" who obviously knew what they were talking about. Never seen this guys podcast before. Maybe if I knew him/of him I'd be more clued into what they were talking about. So "sounds like they know what they are talking about" is now the new threshold of scientific credibility? No scientific method? No peer review? No nothing? Anybody just gets to say/believe whatever sounds good to them? Factual evidence be damned? I mean, sure, anyone can say or believe whatever they want, but people who are actually scientifically qualified also then get to call foul and point it out for what it is. And responsible policy makers also then get to ignore those unqualified claims and beliefs. You can't say "people in the know who obviously knew what they are talking about", implying you have the ability/knowledge to determine the credibility of their claims without any hard evidence or links to papers provided by them, and then say "Maybe if I knew him, I'd be more clued into what they were talking about".That is just logically inconsistent. |
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Post by svart on Jun 18, 2021 7:05:18 GMT -6
" those students were sent back to the United States with specific information-gathering directives with the purpose of helping Beijing understand the US government’s response to the pandemic at a much deeper level than they could through publicly-available documents. Those students (spies) were charged with reporting back on public policy changes, economic response and damage, impacts on the healthcare system (equipment/hospital bed shortages, etc), supply chain impacts (including how long it took things like semiconductors from China to reach the United States), civil unrest, and more. In addition, Dong has provided DIA with the following information: Early pathogenic studies of the virus we now know as SARS-CoV-2 Models of predicted COVID-19 spread and damage to the US and the world Financial records detailing which exact organizations and governments funded the research on SARS-CoV-2 and other biological warfare research Names of US citizens who provide intel to China Names of Chinese spies working in the US or attending US universities Financial records showing US businessmen and public officials who’ve received money from the Chinese government Details of meetings US government officials had (perhaps unwittingly) with Chinese spies and members of Russia’s SVR How the Chinese government gained access to a CIA communications system, leading to the death of dozens of Chinese people who were working with the CIA" www.zerohedge.com/political/chinese-defectors-identity-confirmed-was-top-counterintelligence-official-redstateWow, this is starting so sound a little less like a "lab leak" and more like intentional.. Or a lab leak and "let it do it's thing and we'll use it to see what happens" kind of thing. |
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Post by Ward on Jun 18, 2021 7:15:29 GMT -6
Here's another bit of insight into the problem we are facing.
Now I realize that these professionals do not have the intellect of some of the pontificators here, as they do this for a living and aren't intellectual enough for those whose opinions disagree with their facts.
Drink the koolaid, or watch this.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jun 18, 2021 11:32:50 GMT -6
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 18, 2021 12:06:07 GMT -6
The rightwing media complex is so thoroughly saturated with conspiracy theories and deliberate misinformation that it's really, really hard to take virtually any of these folks at their word without linking to hard evidence. As politicized as the left has gotten with this stuff, and as much as the left has turned this stuff into a money-making venture, the right tends to be far worse, and they are much more susceptible to buying into this sort of thing. The Red State article (linked from the zero hedge page [which, as an aside, has one of the more disgusting and just plain weird comments sections I've seen in recent times]) in particular is compelling, but calling myself dubious would be a massive understatement.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jun 18, 2021 12:55:47 GMT -6
Here's a recent Derek Sloan tweet. I'd like to think that he's making a good faith effort to do the right thing, but the logical fallacy is so large and obvious that he's either intentionally misleading or unintentionally misunderstanding, neither of which is a good look for a person in his position.  |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 18, 2021 13:42:55 GMT -6
Here's a recent Derek Sloan tweet. I'd like to think that he's making a good faith effort to do the right thing, but the logical fallacy is so large and obvious that he's either intentionally misleading or unintentionally misunderstanding, neither of which is a good look for a person in his position. View AttachmentMedical errors are a huge deal, in the US and Canada (and I’m sure everywhere). I may be dense but I fail to see the fallacy. I read it as an attempt to add some perspective to the danger of COVID. Am I missing something? |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jun 18, 2021 13:51:35 GMT -6
I don't mean to diminish medical errors. He's quoting the death toll during the lockdown period as evidence that the lockdown was unnecessary. It's like saying we didn't get pregnant while on birth control so the birth control was unnecessary.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 18, 2021 13:54:45 GMT -6
98k medical error-related deaths in the US per year. 601k from Covid. That probably means that Canadian DNA is pre-disposed to coronavirus resistance and we should probably inject ourselves with maple syrup.
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Post by svart on Jun 18, 2021 13:57:49 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Jun 18, 2021 14:04:09 GMT -6
Drink the koolaid, or watch this. What flavor is it? Is it safe and effective?  Gaslighting and Cancel Culture is in full swing these days. Pretty difficult to get ANY viable and truthful information. A lot of people are getting fed up with it. I particularly liked Roger Waters comments to Zuckerberg when Zuck wanted to license "another brick in the wall". I have had good success in using the "sniff test" for truth research. Hard to do on the internet, and even harder to find with studies that are bought and paid by companies with financial gain involved. I do like to see independent doctors who are passionate and on the front line of the war. They may sniff out a little weird, but after being in the music biz for decades, I can generally smell a lie.... And there are PLENTY of lies floating around in 2021. The docs I've seen come off as pretty sincere. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 18, 2021 14:04:42 GMT -6
Doh! Google search returned a quote from a medical journal that had skewed the context. Those Canadians aren't as resilient as I thought (but they're still looking pretty good so I'm off to the local Whole Foods to get the purest Maple I can afford). |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 18, 2021 14:05:04 GMT -6
I don't mean to diminish medical errors. He's quoting the death toll during the lockdown period as evidence that the lockdown was unnecessary. It's like saying we didn't get pregnant while on birth control so the birth control was unnecessary. Well, I guess I don't read it that way. To each his own. Even with the "end the lockdown" hashtags I can see multiple meanings in there. Like perhaps he's saying the lockdowns are no longer justified, or perhaps no long necessary to the degree they're being instated. I haven't looked into anything he's said, or watched any videos, so maybe I'm wrong? But agree with it or not, it doesn't strike me as some huge logical fallacy. And we're not really certain to what the degree the lockdowns helped/hurt. It was a bit of both most likely. It'll take a while longer to analyze the data, control for all the variables and compare different countries/states methods. |
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Post by drbill on Jun 18, 2021 14:14:18 GMT -6
seawell - Josh - you were right. That video you linked has been removed. You must be a prophet? Glad I got to see it first. One of my biggest takeaways from that video was the concept by all that were involved that dissenting views NEED TO BE HEARD for real science to take place. Evidently Youtube is the now the arbiter of how science will play out at this point... We're Fing doomed.....
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 18, 2021 14:23:20 GMT -6
I don't mean to diminish medical errors. He's quoting the death toll during the lockdown period as evidence that the lockdown was unnecessary. It's like saying we didn't get pregnant while on birth control so the birth control was unnecessary. That's sorta the big point, and the main reason why his tweet is a miss. Other reasons include the fact that medical error isn't particularly contagious. Nor can it be avoided or limited by quarantine, hand-washing, travel restrictions, and other measures done during the expressed period of time. Also, there are a number of systems in place designed to mitigate medical mistakes resulting in fatality, because organized intervention can and does help prevent unnecessary deaths, whether by a doctor's accident, or a highly contagious virus from China. Last, but not least, that's about 25k deaths more than there would have been without Covid. It's not like yearly deaths is some big pie that different causes are vying for a percentage of representation in. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jun 18, 2021 15:20:19 GMT -6
seawell - Josh - you were right. That video you linked has been removed. You must be a prophet? Glad I got to see it first. One of my biggest takeaways from that video was the concept by all that were involved that dissenting views NEED TO BE HEARD for real science to take place. Evidently Youtube is the now the arbiter of how science will play out at this point... We're Fing doomed..... Fear not. Bret Weinstien has a massive platform and is distributed widely by big tech. His audience (and income) grows when he is 'silenced'. |
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