ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,809
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2021 9:35:44 GMT -6
Gee, wasn't this solved years ago, with the Finalizer? Chris God if their was one piece of gear that I hate because of how the manufacturer and most Gearpimps pushed it was the Finalizer! The reps made it out to be Doug Sax in a box, I know this will suprise you but it is not. The scary part is if you really, really dive into it, it is a pretty powerful baby’s first mastering piece. It’s just like anything else thought, you have to dig in and learn the sucker. I have used the thing and I think if I was starting out in mastering I would buy one, but in about 3 years after I started settling on separate tools it would be gone. I think I sold 3 and 2 of those were on bids.
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2021 9:39:53 GMT -6
Why I like where pop/rock is going these past couple/few years! The Jonas bros come out with a new album which is their vocals over: 1 guitar, 1 keyboard, 1 bass and 1 'drum' kit. Sometimes a few extras, but very basic. Layering a million tracks? That's so 2008. I don’t know I was just listening to some modern Peter Gabriel and remembering Tchad Blake talking about going through the 100’s of tracks, OK with those players it’s not Crap. Or even the Hans Zimmer Score for WW1984, I think we all have to understand that certain types of music and aesthetics require different things. A lot of what this thread shows is that as a group we come from different places and we all feel differently about our strengths and weaknesses. You're not wrong. But in pop and rock? You can generally do it with a lot less tracks. Nobody thought any of the Genesis albums or Yes records suffered from being limited a 2" of tape divided into 24 slices.
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2021 9:40:22 GMT -6
Oops double post
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Post by zonkola on Jan 11, 2021 9:50:40 GMT -6
I'm here to confess my sins: I'm a one-man-band project studio guy who doesn't mix anything beyond rough demos. I figure that if I can write a song that doesn't suck (or come up with a worthy cover arrangement) and manage to... - Nail the guitar
- Nail the bass
- Nail the drums
- Nail the keyboards
- Nail the vocals
- Nail any other samples or instruments
- Nail the groove, feel, vibe, emotion, attitude, etc.
- Track all of the above well
...then the very last thing in the world I want to do is completely %&$# up the end result with my amateur mixing "skills". If the song is worth publishing, I'll send it to professionals for mixdown and mastering.
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Frankly, I'd rather spend that time learning how to write better songs. My studio is set up for tracking with zero consideration for mixing, and any rough demos I mix happen ITB in headphones on a couch.
Anyone else here taking this approach?
Send me something. I'll mix it for you, just for fun . . . in between paying work. Where's the quadruple-like button? We could post my crappy rough demo mix and the actual mix side-by-side for comparison...
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 11, 2021 10:37:01 GMT -6
I don't think layering dozens or hundreds of tracks is necessarily an attempt to compensate for a bad song. It certainly can be, but IME, when done right, it's a very effective way to make a massive, larger-than-life, modern pop record. The Jonas Brothers stuff is actually a great example of this. There are loads of subtle parts that aren't really "heard" as much as they're "felt." Lots of detailed percussion, sound FX, risers/transitions, background noises, subtle synth layers, and of course, vocals. All very cleverly stacked together in a way that feels deceptively simple. One of the reasons why I love pop music so much. Still, I also love and appreciate stripped down/sparse arrangements. One of my favorite albums will always be For Emma Forever Ago. Good music is good music whether it's 200 tracks or 2. All that said, mixing songs with 100+ tracks can be absolutely daunting. I'm going to try and get this one down to 48 - 60 when I send it off so my mixing guy doesn't murder me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 10:59:33 GMT -6
I don’t know I was just listening to some modern Peter Gabriel and remembering Tchad Blake talking about going through the 100’s of tracks, OK with those players it’s not Crap. Or even the Hans Zimmer Score for WW1984, I think we all have to understand that certain types of music and aesthetics require different things. A lot of what this thread shows is that as a group we come from different places and we all feel differently about our strengths and weaknesses. You're not wrong. But in pop and rock? You can generally do it with a lot less tracks. Nobody thought any of the Genesis albums or Yes records suffered from being limited a 2" of tape divided into 24 slices. If the drummer can play, tons of mics rarely sound better than few mics: Two overheads, kicks, snare, and a room mic not recorded in a serial killer‘s dead rape dungeon. Scratch tracks are better than clicks too. The problem is most drummers can’t play. Poppier stuff that comes nailed to a grid will never sound real.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,809
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2021 11:14:08 GMT -6
You're not wrong. But in pop and rock? You can generally do it with a lot less tracks. Nobody thought any of the Genesis albums or Yes records suffered from being limited a 2" of tape divided into 24 slices. If the drummer can play, tons of mics rarely sound better than few mics: Two overheads, kicks, snare, and a room mic not recorded in a serial killer‘s dead rape dungeon. Scratch tracks are better than clicks too. The problem is most drummers can’t play. Poppier stuff that comes nailed to a grid will never sound real. I’ll still close mic everything, but for the most part only use a stereo pair and kick sort of like the Earthworks technique, but having the close mics to emphasize or fill in holes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 11:24:32 GMT -6
I don't think layering dozens or hundreds of tracks is necessarily an attempt to compensate for a bad song. It certainly can be, but IME, when done right, it's a very effective way to make a massive, larger-than-life, modern pop record. The Jonas Brothers stuff is actually a great example of this. There are loads of subtle parts that aren't really "heard" as much as they're "felt." Lots of detailed percussion, sound FX, risers/transitions, background noises, subtle synth layers, and of course, vocals. All very cleverly stacked together in a way that feels deceptively simple. One of the reasons why I love pop music so much. Still, I also love and appreciate stripped down/sparse arrangements. One of my favorite albums will always be For Emma Forever Ago. Good music is good music whether it's 200 tracks or 2. All that said, mixing songs with 100+ tracks can be absolutely daunting. I'm going to try and get this one down to 48 - 60 when I send it off so my mixing guy doesn't murder me. All that Jonas brothers stuff has video game sfx drums and is locked to a grid. It would be better if it was done in 4 to 8 tracks and bounced like overproduced 60s pop because their handlers wouldn’t have been able to kill any feel and emotion, if there was any, in the performance.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 11, 2021 11:37:35 GMT -6
@tomegatherion
I can see where you're coming from, but I still think it sounds excellent.
Jonas Brothers really aren't my favorite pop act, though. They have a few tracks I enjoy but mostly not really my thing. I'm much more into the latest Dua Lipa record... that one is absolutely immaculate IMO.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 11, 2021 11:54:38 GMT -6
The mixer is paid to clean up other people's shit. That's what I do. I enjoy doing it but it's frustrating. Half the artists I mix, the engineer had no idea what he was doing. If the band did it themselves, maybe one band member would sound a lot better but the others would be unusable if this was an analog world unless they were older and came from analog. Half the time they use a barely eqed "metal" or "Lead Balloon" VSTi kit that sounds awful, totally random automation and pumping compressors, band-passed sound, clipping everywhere, etc heard it all. Then they pay for mastering because it's cheaper and they can't make it loud themselves. I'm doing something right now where the power supply on a well-known producer's interface gave out, leaving switcher spurs all over the raw tracks. He didn't help things by scooping and clipping everything and telling them it "would all be fixed in post." Which it is. Years later and not pasted over with whack a mole samples.
Should not be too hard to learn a few basics in tracking, doing trial and error to learn something, or going compromises with overdubbing and drum replacement.
If I can learn this, many more can too. It's not rocket science.
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 11, 2021 13:26:40 GMT -6
I'm here to confess my sins: I'm a one-man-band project studio guy who doesn't mix anything beyond rough demos. I figure that if I can write a song that doesn't suck (or come up with a worthy cover arrangement) and manage to... - Nail the guitar
- Nail the bass
- Nail the drums
- Nail the keyboards
- Nail the vocals
- Nail any other samples or instruments
- Nail the groove, feel, vibe, emotion, attitude, etc.
- Track all of the above well
...then the very last thing in the world I want to do is completely %&$# up the end result with my amateur mixing "skills". If the song is worth publishing, I'll send it to professionals for mixdown and mastering.
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Frankly, I'd rather spend that time learning how to write better songs. My studio is set up for tracking with zero consideration for mixing, and any rough demos I mix happen ITB in headphones on a couch.
Anyone else here taking this approach?
Send me something. I'll mix it for you, just for fun . . . in between paying work. I was about to say something similar. Album mixed by RGO message board?
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Post by OtisGreying on Jan 11, 2021 15:34:19 GMT -6
Learning how to mix will make you a better record maker in general. Which will positively serve your songs. If you’re songs are bad it doesn’t really matter, but if there’s a good song and you are aware of how the tracking and mixing stage play off one another your record is more likely to shine.
It’s basically arrangement, I used to pack productions to the brim and now I pick and choose my spots, I also know how to get the full potential out of my productions because I know what the mixing process is going to entail as I make those production decisions. This is why the best producers know more or less how to make a good mix. You know the decisions you make will make it as you intended to the final product or you know a certain decision will not work come mix time so you scrap it and let that inform your process.
So if you’re just an artist, while on its face it doesn’t seem that learning to mix would do you any good outside of saving money, it actually helps your production/writing process immensely.
That being said I still would hire a true professional to give the songs that final polish, but if you don’t know a lot of the process you’ll never get that result you so desire of those great records with you at the helm of the tracking and production.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2021 15:39:16 GMT -6
I've always been a musician before anything technical, like audio engineering. I had always been the band leader though, organizing and arranging and directing rehearsals and recordings.
At one time I was writing and producing music for radio and TV commercials. I happened to have just bought a 4 tk. Teac reel to reel when I was asked if I wanted to write a commercial. I wrote 4 short demos, recording directly into the Teac, no board. Mainly, you just had to balance the track levels and make a 2 tk. copy. I got the job and then paid $250 an hour in late 80's money to hire the best studio for this work, figuring they'll make sure it all works for television and radio and I'll get a good sound, and maybe get more work. Well, that paid off, I made less, but I got steady work for the next 8-9 years because of it.
After I began getting more work, I needed a home studio for smaller lower paying jobs. So in only a couple of days, I bought everything I needed for basic music production. A Kurzweil keyboard, Emu Proteus, Drum machine, NS-10's, a Tascam 8tk., 2 tk, Lexicon reverbs and delays, DBX compressors, a U87, an assortment of other mics and a soundboard. I plugged directly into the board, used only a pinch of EQ. Most recordings needed 8 tracks or less.
For mixing, it was really just a matter of balancing levels. I had reverb and delays on AUX busses, and printed with the DBX for 2 tk. finals. Back in the day, Abbey Road engineers referred to mixing as balancing, and that's how I approach it too, like a conductor does with an orchestra.
So, put a tape sim and a compressor on your 2 bus, get the tracks where you like them, one at a time. You only need a little reverb and compression, maybe a slight EQ to sound great if your tracks sound good to begin with. Your mix should be close when you're finally done tracking.
working in major studios
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Post by drumsound on Jan 11, 2021 16:14:50 GMT -6
The first trick for basic mixing is to mix while you track. The “nailing the various basic tracks “ is very different from nailing tracks that work together. As either a mixing AE or a long distance producer trying to explain that the awesome bass track you sent is awesome but just doesn’t fit is a conversation I get really sick of having. The other thing to remember is a great song stands on its own when you strip it down to basics, to often I have gotten sessions where the artist just kept layering tracks to make up for a crappy song. On of the hardest things is to find somebody you know who will be an honest sounding board. Most people you know mean well and are afraid to hurt your feelings, embrace the guy who is honest enough to tell you it sucks. Are you referring to a bass track that doesn't fit sonically or musically? Meaning, could it have been fixed with a better bass & a HPF, or does the actual bassline not support the tune? If you have any tips on how to "mix while you track" I'd love to hear them. I use a bit of EQ and some light compression on selected instruments when I track, but my inclination is to go easy on that stuff and focus on performance and capture. I figure if the song, performance, and tracking is solid, a skilled mix engineer can take it to the next level. This where simple listening and honesty come into play. Once you're hearing the track in context you need to say "does this part work?" and "does this sound work?" I've often listened to a sound created in the live room (guitar choice, amp choice, percussion instrument-whatever) put up a mic, and listened and thought "this is great," but once I hear it with the tracks already recorded, I can hear that they aren't making sense together. So then something gets changed. If its the part (too busy, too sparse, same register as something else etc) it gets discussed with the player. If its sonic, I usually know what to change around. Often its a mic swap, but maybe placement, or simple a hi pass. Sometimes an instrument change, like single coil instead of humbuckers on a guitar. I have always had trouble adding more tracks than the basics.....I need space in my songs. I just don't know how others can manage to end up with 100 tracks. cheers Wiz Same here, although I'm sure there are plenty of songs I like that have tons of tracks. I've never needed more than 16-24 tracks for my stuff, but that probably comes down to the style of music I play and having started on tape machines. (I definitely don't miss needing to bounce tracks.) I wrote a guest "End Rant" in Tape Op on the very subject. Read it Here. This is kind of a great thread. I’ve been hiring more experienced mix engineers lately to mix my stuff, mostly because I lack time at this stage of life. I have way more songs to produce and track than I have time to mix. It’s funny I hate being brought in as mix engineer, I would always prefer to be a part of things from the beginning. I guess I like to have a say in the making of the bricks I get to put together. I also feel really weird when somebody else is hired to mix what I have tracked. I guess I really have a problem just doing 1/2 the job, I really feel weird when I’m giving feed back to another AE, I feel like what I have to say will be taken to hard, or out of context. I prefer to both track and mix as well. Not that I won't do just one part, but I prefer to see the project through until mastering. I LOVE producing and arranging. I’m much better at that than mixing. And to me, having someone better than me mix my stuff is a lesson in itself. I feel like I can learn way more from that than from some random YT videos or mixing sites. I do really enjoy mixing though, I just don’t have the time to do it all right now. I’ve really only tried out hiring a mixer on a couple songs so far. I want to see how it goes before going too far with it. I had a friend, who freelance engineers for a living, mix one of my tunes a while back in exchange for letting him borrow one of my mics. I was not happy with it at all. I did a better job on my rough. So that was a disappointment. My latest is with Eddie Ashworth (Sublime), who is my old college advisor. He’s super busy though, and it’s taking a while. But I still have high hopes! See I always view arrangement and mix to be part of each other, I guess it comes from the time spent mixing big bands live. Working with music directors and understanding the arrangements was what got me the gigs. This is why this place is different we can have these discussions. I think knowledge of various musical styles seeps into what we do in the studio in a very positive way. Big bands are a great example of that.
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Post by wiz on Jan 11, 2021 17:53:28 GMT -6
It’s funny I hate being brought in as mix engineer, I would always prefer to be a part of things from the beginning. I guess I like to have a say in the making of the bricks I get to put together. I also feel really weird when somebody else is hired to mix what I have tracked. I guess I really have a problem just doing 1/2 the job, I really feel weird when I’m giving feed back to another AE, I feel like what I have to say will be taken to hard, or out of context. I LOVE producing and arranging. I’m much better at that than mixing. And to me, having someone better than me mix my stuff is a lesson in itself. I feel like I can learn way more from that than from some random YT videos or mixing sites. I do really enjoy mixing though, I just don’t have the time to do it all right now. I’ve really only tried out hiring a mixer on a couple songs so far. I want to see how it goes before going too far with it. I had a friend, who freelance engineers for a living, mix one of my tunes a while back in exchange for letting him borrow one of my mics. I was not happy with it at all. I did a better job on my rough. So that was a disappointment. My latest is with Eddie Ashworth (Sublime), who is my old college advisor. He’s super busy though, and it’s taking a while. But I still have high hopes! If you want I will mix a song for you...no charge. pm me wiz
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Post by dreamsambas on Jan 11, 2021 18:28:20 GMT -6
I'm also a musician first, engineer second.
When it comes to engineering, I take inspiration from 50s-60s recording methods. Like picking the right microphones to determine the frequency balance. Or controlling dynamics with the players themselves. Easier said than done, of course.
In my experience, a song with a kickass arrangement or kickass musicians will usually mix itself for the most part.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 11, 2021 19:27:03 GMT -6
I LOVE producing and arranging. I’m much better at that than mixing. And to me, having someone better than me mix my stuff is a lesson in itself. I feel like I can learn way more from that than from some random YT videos or mixing sites. I do really enjoy mixing though, I just don’t have the time to do it all right now. I’ve really only tried out hiring a mixer on a couple songs so far. I want to see how it goes before going too far with it. I had a friend, who freelance engineers for a living, mix one of my tunes a while back in exchange for letting him borrow one of my mics. I was not happy with it at all. I did a better job on my rough. So that was a disappointment. My latest is with Eddie Ashworth (Sublime), who is my old college advisor. He’s super busy though, and it’s taking a while. But I still have high hopes! If you want I will mix a song for you...no charge. pm me wiz
I always thought this would be a nice idea between DO IT ALL YOURSELF musicians:
I mix your song - you mix my song.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 12, 2021 8:49:58 GMT -6
I'm here to confess my sins: I'm a one-man-band project studio guy who doesn't mix anything beyond rough demos. I figure that if I can write a song that doesn't suck (or come up with a worthy cover arrangement) and manage to... - Nail the guitar
- Nail the bass
- Nail the drums
- Nail the keyboards
- Nail the vocals
- Nail any other samples or instruments
- Nail the groove, feel, vibe, emotion, attitude, etc.
- Track all of the above well
...then the very last thing in the world I want to do is completely %&$# up the end result with my amateur mixing "skills". If the song is worth publishing, I'll send it to professionals for mixdown and mastering.
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Frankly, I'd rather spend that time learning how to write better songs. My studio is set up for tracking with zero consideration for mixing, and any rough demos I mix happen ITB in headphones on a couch.
Anyone else here taking this approach?
Send it to me and let me $#(& it up. Always better to let someone else do it.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 12, 2021 9:43:28 GMT -6
I LOVE producing and arranging. I’m much better at that than mixing. And to me, having someone better than me mix my stuff is a lesson in itself. I feel like I can learn way more from that than from some random YT videos or mixing sites. I do really enjoy mixing though, I just don’t have the time to do it all right now. I’ve really only tried out hiring a mixer on a couple songs so far. I want to see how it goes before going too far with it. I had a friend, who freelance engineers for a living, mix one of my tunes a while back in exchange for letting him borrow one of my mics. I was not happy with it at all. I did a better job on my rough. So that was a disappointment. My latest is with Eddie Ashworth (Sublime), who is my old college advisor. He’s super busy though, and it’s taking a while. But I still have high hopes! If you want I will mix a song for you...no charge. pm me wiz Man, you are AWESOME! That's very, very cool of you.
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Post by svart on Jan 12, 2021 10:07:41 GMT -6
Mixing while tracking is a recipe for chasing rabbits.
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Post by donr on Jan 12, 2021 10:20:29 GMT -6
I love the process of mixing and spend far too much time, to my career detriment, thinking and doing it when I should just be writing songs and recording them. But I like it so much, even though I’ll always be an amateur engineer. It’s why I’m here at RGO frankly.
Some good advice in this thread. Get some other ears on your songs at the writing and arranging stage before wasting hours polishing a turd. If you really want to sound like commercial recordings, you should probably hire commercial talent. But quirky audio is ok if you understand you’ll never be a pop star.
If I can stand to listen to my own stuff, then it’s good enough for me. But when BOC did “The Symbol Remains,” we were smart enough to hire Tom Lord-Alge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 10:22:27 GMT -6
Why I like where pop/rock is going these past couple/few years! The Jonas bros come out with a new album which is their vocals over: 1 guitar, 1 keyboard, 1 bass and 1 'drum' kit. Sometimes a few extras, but very basic. Layering a million tracks? That's so 2008. I don’t know I was just listening to some modern Peter Gabriel and remembering Tchad Blake talking about going through the 100’s of tracks, OK with those players it’s not Crap. Or even the Hans Zimmer Score for WW1984, I think we all have to understand that certain types of music and aesthetics require different things. A lot of what this thread shows is that as a group we come from different places and we all feel differently about our strengths and weaknesses. Are those tracks takes and they're just editing in the daw and not comping, do they have everything in parallel, or do they have stuff just buried in there that nobody would ever hear after the mix gets eviscerated by a clipper and lookahead brickwall limiter?
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 12, 2021 10:24:16 GMT -6
Mixing while tracking is a recipe for chasing rabbits. I got into an argument with one of my professors at Berklee about this. We were working on a project that took several weeks. Week one, drums, week two, bass, etc....every week he was telling me to mix my drums. I was like, but I don’t know what the finished track is gonna sound like. I can only mix a complete project. That being said, I think balancing and adjusting your tracks as you go to make room for the new stuff is helpful and important.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 10:24:57 GMT -6
Mixing while tracking is a recipe for chasing rabbits. The worst is when the rhythm track takes are good performances but the recordings are so bad that you're sent them to mix for punch ins at a different studio or at home. Then you have to mix in those... UGH!
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Post by sean on Jan 12, 2021 10:48:42 GMT -6
The rare times I work on my own music and mix, I way over think it. I can mix another persons song in a couple hours and feel good about it and send it along for approval, but my own stuff I’m more tempted to lock it to a grid if it’s to a click, pull out the tuner, do 50 passes of a guitar lick even though the third one was fine...it’s good to hand it off to someone else to finish if you can allow yourself to do it
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