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Post by zonkola on Jan 10, 2021 15:25:28 GMT -6
I'm here to confess my sins: I'm a one-man-band project studio guy who doesn't mix anything beyond rough demos. I figure that if I can write a song that doesn't suck (or come up with a worthy cover arrangement) and manage to... - Nail the guitar
- Nail the bass
- Nail the drums
- Nail the keyboards
- Nail the vocals
- Nail any other samples or instruments
- Nail the groove, feel, vibe, emotion, attitude, etc.
- Track all of the above well
...then the very last thing in the world I want to do is completely %&$# up the end result with my amateur mixing "skills". If the song is worth publishing, I'll send it to professionals for mixdown and mastering.
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Frankly, I'd rather spend that time learning how to write better songs. My studio is set up for tracking with zero consideration for mixing, and any rough demos I mix happen ITB in headphones on a couch.
Anyone else here taking this approach?
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 10, 2021 15:32:58 GMT -6
Same boat here.
I feel like my ability to mix is inversely associated with my time spent recording/producing. I’m currently wrapping up a song that has close to 200 tracks and there is no way in hell I’m mixing this thing.
With simple/straightforward rock productions, it’s a different story.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2021 15:46:01 GMT -6
The first trick for basic mixing is to mix while you track. The “nailing the various basic tracks “ is very different from nailing tracks that work together. As either a mixing AE or a long distance producer trying to explain that the awesome bass track you sent is awesome but just doesn’t fit is a conversation I get really sick of having. The other thing to remember is a great song stands on its own when you strip it down to basics, to often I have gotten sessions where the artist just kept layering tracks to make up for a crappy song. On of the hardest things is to find somebody you know who will be an honest sounding board. Most people you know mean well and are afraid to hurt your feelings, embrace the guy who is honest enough to tell you it sucks.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 10, 2021 17:12:18 GMT -6
The first trick for basic mixing is to mix while you track. The “nailing the various basic tracks “ is very different from nailing tracks that work together. As either a mixing AE or a long distance producer trying to explain that the awesome bass track you sent is awesome but just doesn’t fit is a conversation I get really sick of having. The other thing to remember is a great song stands on its own when you strip it down to basics, to often I have gotten sessions where the artist just kept layering tracks to make up for a crappy song. On of the hardest things is to find somebody you know who will be an honest sounding board. Most people you know mean well and are afraid to hurt your feelings, embrace the guy who is honest enough to tell you it sucks. I hate the layering of track after track to make up for a mediocre song. I’ve been in a situation where we tracked a song in a day, and the singer went back into the studio several times to add a pro backup singer, keys, horns, several mix iterations etc....The final result sounds very big and produced, but the song sucks.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 10, 2021 17:14:44 GMT -6
I'm here to confess my sins: I'm a one-man-band project studio guy who doesn't mix anything beyond rough demos. I figure that if I can write a song that doesn't suck (or come up with a worthy cover arrangement) and manage to... - Nail the guitar
- Nail the bass
- Nail the drums
- Nail the keyboards
- Nail the vocals
- Nail any other samples or instruments
- Nail the groove, feel, vibe, emotion, attitude, etc.
- Track all of the above well
...then the very last thing in the world I want to do is completely %&$# up the end result with my amateur mixing "skills". If the song is worth publishing, I'll send it to professionals for mixdown and mastering.
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Frankly, I'd rather spend that time learning how to write better songs. My studio is set up for tracking with zero consideration for mixing, and any rough demos I mix happen ITB in headphones on a couch.
Anyone else here taking this approach?
If you nail all the parts when tracking and they all fit together well, there’s probably not much mixing to do!
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Post by wiz on Jan 10, 2021 17:25:35 GMT -6
I have always had trouble adding more tracks than the basics.....I need space in my songs.
I just don't know how others can manage to end up with 100 tracks.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by zonkola on Jan 10, 2021 17:41:39 GMT -6
The first trick for basic mixing is to mix while you track. The “nailing the various basic tracks “ is very different from nailing tracks that work together. As either a mixing AE or a long distance producer trying to explain that the awesome bass track you sent is awesome but just doesn’t fit is a conversation I get really sick of having. The other thing to remember is a great song stands on its own when you strip it down to basics, to often I have gotten sessions where the artist just kept layering tracks to make up for a crappy song. On of the hardest things is to find somebody you know who will be an honest sounding board. Most people you know mean well and are afraid to hurt your feelings, embrace the guy who is honest enough to tell you it sucks. Are you referring to a bass track that doesn't fit sonically or musically? Meaning, could it have been fixed with a better bass & a HPF, or does the actual bassline not support the tune? If you have any tips on how to "mix while you track" I'd love to hear them. I use a bit of EQ and some light compression on selected instruments when I track, but my inclination is to go easy on that stuff and focus on performance and capture. I figure if the song, performance, and tracking is solid, a skilled mix engineer can take it to the next level.
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Post by zonkola on Jan 10, 2021 17:45:05 GMT -6
I have always had trouble adding more tracks than the basics.....I need space in my songs. I just don't know how others can manage to end up with 100 tracks. cheers Wiz Same here, although I'm sure there are plenty of songs I like that have tons of tracks. I've never needed more than 16-24 tracks for my stuff, but that probably comes down to the style of music I play and having started on tape machines. (I definitely don't miss needing to bounce tracks.)
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2021 18:37:14 GMT -6
The first trick for basic mixing is to mix while you track. The “nailing the various basic tracks “ is very different from nailing tracks that work together. As either a mixing AE or a long distance producer trying to explain that the awesome bass track you sent is awesome but just doesn’t fit is a conversation I get really sick of having. The other thing to remember is a great song stands on its own when you strip it down to basics, to often I have gotten sessions where the artist just kept layering tracks to make up for a crappy song. On of the hardest things is to find somebody you know who will be an honest sounding board. Most people you know mean well and are afraid to hurt your feelings, embrace the guy who is honest enough to tell you it sucks. Are you referring to a bass track that doesn't fit sonically or musically? Meaning, could it have been fixed with a better bass & a HPF, or does the actual bassline not support the tune? If you have any tips on how to "mix while you track" I'd love to hear them. I use a bit of EQ and some light compression on selected instruments when I track, but my inclination is to go easy on that stuff and focus on performance and capture. I figure if the song, performance, and tracking is solid, a skilled mix engineer can take it to the next level. Either, this was always easier on a console, but the main thing is to take the time before you commit to a track to build a mix and listen, as you build don’t be afraid to go back and redo basics. If your afraid of using EQ or Dynamics during tracking, split the single at the preamp output and keep a dry safety. While conventional wisdom is to start with bass and drums, often and particularly for demos start with vocals and what you wrote it on. Use these as a guide you can always re do them. Do not discard everything, this where it’s easy to end up with hundreds of tracks, but being able to go back start over and reimagine the song is golden. Ask any of us oldies who started with tape about that time we wished we still had that track we could have rebuilt everything on that was erase last month. On a demo never dive to deep into environmental effects, it just distracts.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 10, 2021 18:52:04 GMT -6
Don't feel bad. Im the exact opposite.
I have ideas, riffs, whatever in my head all the time. Every time I try and make something happen..i get so frustrated and give up because of this or that.
now, give me a tune to mix. Hell yeah I'm in!
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 10, 2021 21:45:52 GMT -6
When the song is there I start to track arrange and mix at the same time. After 15 years I am happy that I can say that all this is driven by my feelings. They tell me where to go. It was a lot of try and error before it became second nature. Finding my optimal workflow took alone two years, and it helps a lot to get things done.
With the newer plugs I tend to navigate to have the result all ITB which is God send during Covid-19 because work gets interrupted all the time....😫
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2021 22:07:25 GMT -6
This is kind of a great thread. I’ve been hiring more experienced mix engineers lately to mix my stuff, mostly because I lack time at this stage of life. I have way more songs to produce and track than I have time to mix.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2021 22:32:01 GMT -6
This is kind of a great thread. I’ve been hiring more experienced mix engineers lately to mix my stuff, mostly because I lack time at this stage of life. I have way more songs to produce and track than I have time to mix. It’s funny I hate being brought in as mix engineer, I would always prefer to be a part of things from the beginning. I guess I like to have a say in the making of the bricks I get to put together. I also feel really weird when somebody else is hired to mix what I have tracked. I guess I really have a problem just doing 1/2 the job, I really feel weird when I’m giving feed back to another AE, I feel like what I have to say will be taken to hard, or out of context.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 22:53:44 GMT -6
The mixer is paid to clean up other people's shit. That's what I do. I enjoy doing it but it's frustrating.
Half the artists I mix, the engineer had no idea what he was doing. If the band did it themselves, maybe one band member would sound a lot better but the others would be unusable if this was an analog world unless they were older and came from analog. Half the time they use a barely eqed "metal" or "Lead Balloon" VSTi kit that sounds awful, totally random automation and pumping compressors, band-passed sound, clipping everywhere, etc heard it all. Then they pay for mastering because it's cheaper and they can't make it loud themselves. I'm doing something right now where the power supply on a well-known producer's interface gave out, leaving switcher spurs all over the raw tracks. He didn't help things by scooping and clipping everything and telling them it "would all be fixed in post." Which it is. Years later and not pasted over with whack a mole samples.
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 10, 2021 23:03:39 GMT -6
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Many musicians have achieved great mixes without toiling for many years to learn the skill. If you catch the mixing bug and have ears you can progress rapidly, especially if you're mixing in a genre you're deeply familiar with. Plus if you know how to mix you'll be much better at tracking. If someone truly doesn't want to mix there's nothing wrong with that, just in the same way I have no desire to learn how to master. But mixing is where recording all comes together, and there's a real joy in that.
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Post by zonkola on Jan 10, 2021 23:19:18 GMT -6
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Many musicians have achieved great mixes without toiling for many years to learn the skill. If you catch the mixing bug and have ears you can progress rapidly, especially if you're mixing in a genre you're deeply familiar with. Plus if you know how to mix you'll be much better at tracking. If someone truly doesn't want to mix there's nothing wrong with that, just in the same way I have no desire to learn how to master. But mixing is where recording all comes together, and there's a real joy in that. Another aspect to this is that—given the one-man-band nature of what I do—I see value in a mix engineer looking at a tune with fresh ears.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2021 5:50:20 GMT -6
This is kind of a great thread. I’ve been hiring more experienced mix engineers lately to mix my stuff, mostly because I lack time at this stage of life. I have way more songs to produce and track than I have time to mix. It’s funny I hate being brought in as mix engineer, I would always prefer to be a part of things from the beginning. I guess I like to have a say in the making of the bricks I get to put together. I also feel really weird when somebody else is hired to mix what I have tracked. I guess I really have a problem just doing 1/2 the job, I really feel weird when I’m giving feed back to another AE, I feel like what I have to say will be taken to hard, or out of context. I LOVE producing and arranging. I’m much better at that than mixing. And to me, having someone better than me mix my stuff is a lesson in itself. I feel like I can learn way more from that than from some random YT videos or mixing sites. I do really enjoy mixing though, I just don’t have the time to do it all right now. I’ve really only tried out hiring a mixer on a couple songs so far. I want to see how it goes before going too far with it. I had a friend, who freelance engineers for a living, mix one of my tunes a while back in exchange for letting him borrow one of my mics. I was not happy with it at all. I did a better job on my rough. So that was a disappointment. My latest is with Eddie Ashworth (Sublime), who is my old college advisor. He’s super busy though, and it’s taking a while. But I still have high hopes!
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2021 5:53:40 GMT -6
The mixer is paid to clean up other people's shit. That's what I do. I enjoy doing it but it's frustrating. Half the artists I mix, the engineer had no idea what he was doing. If the band did it themselves, maybe one band member would sound a lot better but the others would be unusable if this was an analog world unless they were older and came from analog. Half the time they use a barely eqed "metal" or "Lead Balloon" VSTi kit that sounds awful, totally random automation and pumping compressors, band-passed sound, clipping everywhere, etc heard it all. Then they pay for mastering because it's cheaper and they can't make it loud themselves. I'm doing something right now where the power supply on a well-known producer's interface gave out, leaving switcher spurs all over the raw tracks. He didn't help things by scooping and clipping everything and telling them it "would all be fixed in post." Which it is. Years later and not pasted over with whack a mole samples. That’s kind of a degrading generalization. Maybe true with bands that come to you, but I don’t think what I’m doing is shit. But that’s just me. Plus, I really dislike typical/local metal music.
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2021 7:00:07 GMT -6
I hate the layering of track after track to make up for a mediocre song. I’ve been in a situation where we tracked a song in a day, and the singer went back into the studio several times to add a pro backup singer, keys, horns, several mix iterations etc....The final result sounds very big and produced, but the song sucks. Why I like where pop/rock is going these past couple/few years! The Jonas bros come out with a new album which is their vocals over: 1 guitar, 1 keyboard, 1 bass and 1 'drum' kit. Sometimes a few extras, but very basic. Layering a million tracks? That's so 2008.
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2021 7:01:20 GMT -6
I have always had trouble adding more tracks than the basics.....I need space in my songs. I just don't know how others can manage to end up with 100 tracks. cheers Wiz Another guy that thinks like me, or vice-versa! 4-8 great tracks are far better than 100 mediocre ones. JMHO
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2021 7:02:07 GMT -6
I'm here to confess my sins: I'm a one-man-band project studio guy who doesn't mix anything beyond rough demos. I figure that if I can write a song that doesn't suck (or come up with a worthy cover arrangement) and manage to... - Nail the guitar
- Nail the bass
- Nail the drums
- Nail the keyboards
- Nail the vocals
- Nail any other samples or instruments
- Nail the groove, feel, vibe, emotion, attitude, etc.
- Track all of the above well
...then the very last thing in the world I want to do is completely %&$# up the end result with my amateur mixing "skills". If the song is worth publishing, I'll send it to professionals for mixdown and mastering.
Sure, I could learn to mix, but it'd take many years just to get to an almost-professional level. Frankly, I'd rather spend that time learning how to write better songs. My studio is set up for tracking with zero consideration for mixing, and any rough demos I mix happen ITB in headphones on a couch.
Anyone else here taking this approach?
Send me something. I'll mix it for you, just for fun . . . in between paying work.
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2021 7:06:31 GMT -6
The mixer is paid to clean up other people's shit. That's what I do. I enjoy doing it but it's frustrating. Half the artists I mix, the engineer had no idea what he was doing. If the band did it themselves, maybe one band member would sound a lot better but the others would be unusable if this was an analog world unless they were older and came from analog. Half the time they use a barely eqed "metal" or "Lead Balloon" VSTi kit that sounds awful, totally random automation and pumping compressors, band-passed sound, clipping everywhere, etc heard it all. Then they pay for mastering because it's cheaper and they can't make it loud themselves. I'm doing something right now where the power supply on a well-known producer's interface gave out, leaving switcher spurs all over the raw tracks. He didn't help things by scooping and clipping everything and telling them it "would all be fixed in post." Which it is. Years later and not pasted over with whack a mole samples. As brutally blunt as you are, which I adore by the way, you're not wrong! There's a special place in hell for BFD, Slate Drums, Kemper, impulses and most everything else fake - keyboards get a begrudged pass. Bands/artists 'self-producing' is a lot like doing your own dental work or cutting your own hair . . . and very few of those ventures end up with good results. OK . . . grumpy old man shutting up now. Just stay off my damned clouds.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 11, 2021 9:14:29 GMT -6
Gee, wasn't this solved years ago, with the Finalizer? Chris
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ericn
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Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2021 9:22:06 GMT -6
I hate the layering of track after track to make up for a mediocre song. I’ve been in a situation where we tracked a song in a day, and the singer went back into the studio several times to add a pro backup singer, keys, horns, several mix iterations etc....The final result sounds very big and produced, but the song sucks. Why I like where pop/rock is going these past couple/few years! The Jonas bros come out with a new album which is their vocals over: 1 guitar, 1 keyboard, 1 bass and 1 'drum' kit. Sometimes a few extras, but very basic. Layering a million tracks? That's so 2008. I don’t know I was just listening to some modern Peter Gabriel and remembering Tchad Blake talking about going through the 100’s of tracks, OK with those players it’s not Crap. Or even the Hans Zimmer Score for WW1984, I think we all have to understand that certain types of music and aesthetics require different things. A lot of what this thread shows is that as a group we come from different places and we all feel differently about our strengths and weaknesses.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2021 9:27:27 GMT -6
It’s funny I hate being brought in as mix engineer, I would always prefer to be a part of things from the beginning. I guess I like to have a say in the making of the bricks I get to put together. I also feel really weird when somebody else is hired to mix what I have tracked. I guess I really have a problem just doing 1/2 the job, I really feel weird when I’m giving feed back to another AE, I feel like what I have to say will be taken to hard, or out of context. I LOVE producing and arranging. I’m much better at that than mixing. And to me, having someone better than me mix my stuff is a lesson in itself. I feel like I can learn way more from that than from some random YT videos or mixing sites. I do really enjoy mixing though, I just don’t have the time to do it all right now. I’ve really only tried out hiring a mixer on a couple songs so far. I want to see how it goes before going too far with it. I had a friend, who freelance engineers for a living, mix one of my tunes a while back in exchange for letting him borrow one of my mics. I was not happy with it at all. I did a better job on my rough. So that was a disappointment. My latest is with Eddie Ashworth (Sublime), who is my old college advisor. He’s super busy though, and it’s taking a while. But I still have high hopes! See I always view arrangement and mix to be part of each other, I guess it comes from the time spent mixing big bands live. Working with music directors and understanding the arrangements was what got me the gigs. This is why this place is different we can have these discussions.
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