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Post by Guitar on Jan 15, 2021 7:41:27 GMT -6
This is something I've been looking into for years...thought about building my own mics to tweak them to what I want on my own vocal. I searched and tweaked with a few different builders out there still coming up short. Shannon Rhoades was getting closer after about the 3rd tweak and more money down the drain. Then he disappeared with my capsules and an incomplete mic. I reached out to Tim Cambell to look at his 251 capsule, but he hasn't got back with me yet. I tried the Heisermann capsule, but it just didn't work for me. Sorry to hear about your mic, but I say keep going. This is one of those "epic quests" that most audio people go on after some time, and it can take a while. I don't know how many years it took me to get my final mic set up in place. It sounds like you've eliminated a few options already, which is a good start. Tim Campbell has a waiting list once you reach him. I haven't heard that one either, nor the Heiserman. But I think you can enjoy the journey sometimes, the trial and error of it. RGO is rich with microphone knowledge and examples, as everyone knows. There were a few people that got me over the hump with my 251 build. If you have the idea to try an ADK capsule, I could recommend them, I like mine. Front End Audio sells them, and you can usually get a 10% discount or so most months.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 15, 2021 8:26:20 GMT -6
I’ve been searching for over a decade, many failed attempts. You can say I’m rather picky. I did have one mic that tickled my fancy and gave me much pleasure! I sold it like an idiot!!!!! I’ve searched ever since and haven’t found a mic close to that one. It just sounded incredible on anything you put in front of it and it was perfect on my vocal! Kicking my own ass right now!!!!!!
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Post by ragan on Jan 15, 2021 9:13:20 GMT -6
I’ve been searching for over a decade, many failed attempts. You can say I’m rather picky. I did have one mic that tickled my fancy and gave me much pleasure! I sold it like an idiot!!!!! I’ve searched ever since and haven’t found a mic close to that one. It just sounded incredible on anything you put in front of it and it was perfect on my vocal! Kicking my own ass right now!!!!!! What was it?
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Post by teejay on Jan 15, 2021 9:44:56 GMT -6
One additional piece of info to share in case anyone is wondering. I had inquired with Larry at ADK regarding the possibility of swapping a Campbell or Heiserman capsule for the stock ADK capsule. Here is Larry's response: "I should add that the Campbell and Heiserman capsules are designed for much lower voltages than the Z-Mod Capsules, so swapping without a major re-do of circuit is not an option."
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Post by hadaja on Jan 15, 2021 18:10:19 GMT -6
One additional piece of info to share in case anyone is wondering. I had inquired with Larry at ADK regarding the possibility of swapping a Campbell or Heiserman capsule for the stock ADK capsule. Here is Larry's response: "I should add that the Campbell and Heiserman capsules are designed for much lower voltages than the Z-Mod Capsules, so swapping without a major re-do of circuit is not an option." That sort of makes sense. i think the ADK z-mod is modeled around one particular capsule. I thinks its the 67 capsule. And then the parts and capsule are tuned to sound complimentary to the model it is representing. I think a chap called Kevin Dale does the work. Not 100% sure of all this info but its what i have gleaned from a few weeks of research and if someone corrects me i would really appreciated it. How come we have not heard much of Kevin Dale’s work as a tech? There are other techs like Billy Pratt - upton, vintech that i have heard of doing capsule work but not so much from Kevin. Any one had any outstanding work done from these guys. I did take the plunge and bought a Z-mod 251. I kind of love 251 mics and want to get an intimate knowledge of all the makes and sounds of different varieties of 251 styles.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 16, 2021 7:58:32 GMT -6
So how is the mic a 251 if using a 67 style capsule & circuit tailored to the specific 67 capsule? I maybe missing something lol.
A mic is the sum of its parts. Some parts affect the sound more then others.
I thought for a mic to be considered a 251 it needs a CK12 capsule, a 6072 or Ac701, & a Haufe T14 transformer. Ntm the head basket & shape, head basket spacing & material etc all affects the sound.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2021 8:04:57 GMT -6
The "story" I remember is whomever was hired to design the capsules themselves, used "Physics" to solve the problem, whatever that means. Some sort of research and theory that allowed them to get close to the curves they were after, using a novel or proprietary style of capsule design. Like where to put the little holes in the backplate and so on.
The GK-12d and GK-251d are still edge terminated ("AKG"), as they should be, and the GK-67d, GK-47d, GK-49d (all the "Neumann" ones) are center terminated, as in the vintage parts.
You would have to ask one of the big dog capsule people about the more deep, nitty gritty details of the acoustics of these things. I don't think that stuff is common knowledge, or easy to explain.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2021 8:07:23 GMT -6
So how is the mic a 251 if using a 67 style capsule & circuit tailored to the specific 67 capsule? I maybe missing something lol. A mic is the sum of its parts. Some parts affect the sound more then others. I thought for a mic to be considered a 251 it needs a CK12 capsule, a 6072 or Ac701, & a Haufe T14 transformer. Ntm the head basket & shape, head basket spacing & material etc all affects the sound. I don't think that's accurate. I don't think these are modeled on a U67, other than the GK-67 capsules obviously. The ADK amplifier is a flat response amplifier. The transformer will add a tiny "curve" to the tone profile, which is why they select different ones. Most of the ADK "sound" is differentiated by the capsules, as already stated. And to a smaller extent, the transformer options.
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Post by teejay on Jan 16, 2021 9:10:42 GMT -6
One additional piece of info to share in case anyone is wondering. I had inquired with Larry at ADK regarding the possibility of swapping a Campbell or Heiserman capsule for the stock ADK capsule. Here is Larry's response: "I should add that the Campbell and Heiserman capsules are designed for much lower voltages than the Z-Mod Capsules, so swapping without a major re-do of circuit is not an option." That sort of makes sense. i think the ADK z-mod is modeled around one particular capsule. I thinks its the 67 capsule. And then the parts and capsule are tuned to sound complimentary to the model it is representing. I think a chap called Kevin Dale does the work. They appear to have five different capsules, evidenced as Guitar indicated by the fact there are both edge and center-terminated caps. adkmic.com/pages/about"By consulting with such golden-ears (or bat-ears as we think of them) such as Chuck Ainlay and Michael Shipley we were able to find the optimal signal path for each of the five fine-tuned capsules." "Instead of excessive EQ filters and tricks to make a microphone sound smooth, ADK Custom Shop and 3 Zigma spent five years fine-tuning capsules." I've seen Kevin's name/posts for several years on the forums. I don't get the impression he is tweaking capsules, but is likely the one making some internal changes/transformer swaps based upon custom requirements of a client. He's been Larry's right-hand-man for a while. I've found both Larry and Kevin to be very helpful. I'm pretty sure if you have specific questions about capsules, internals, etc. that one of those two gentlemen will provide the answers if you contact them directly.
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Post by ragan on Jan 16, 2021 11:00:48 GMT -6
One additional piece of info to share in case anyone is wondering. I had inquired with Larry at ADK regarding the possibility of swapping a Campbell or Heiserman capsule for the stock ADK capsule. Here is Larry's response: "I should add that the Campbell and Heiserman capsules are designed for much lower voltages than the Z-Mod Capsules, so swapping without a major re-do of circuit is not an option." That sort of makes sense. i think the ADK z-mod is modeled around one particular capsule. I thinks its the 67 capsule. And then the parts and capsule are tuned to sound complimentary to the model it is representing. I think a chap called Kevin Dale does the work. Not 100% sure of all this info but its what i have gleaned from a few weeks of research and if someone corrects me i would really appreciated it. How come we have not heard much of Kevin Dale’s work as a tech? There are other techs like Billy Pratt - upton, vintech that i have heard of doing capsule work but not so much from Kevin. Any one had any outstanding work done from these guys. I did take the plunge and bought a Z-mod 251. I kind of love 251 mics and want to get an intimate knowledge of all the makes and sounds of different varieties of 251 styles. They’re different capsules. The 251 is an edge terminated like you’d expect, the 67 center terminated, etc. I’ve been in the shop and met Kevin. Nice guy.
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Post by ragan on Jan 16, 2021 11:08:06 GMT -6
That whole “physics guru” thing was out of their ad copy. Just marketing I’m pretty sure.
ADK doesn’t make their own capsules, they buy them from an overseas maker (like lots of other mic brands). The CK-12 they use isn’t a full on replica like Tim Campbell or Eric Heiserman make, with the exact back chamber situation of the originals. You can’t (to my knowledge) mass produce those. But the one ADK is using is indeed a nice capsule.
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Post by brenta on Jan 16, 2021 11:35:36 GMT -6
I thought it was an open secret that Guosheng from 3U was heavily involved in the design of some of the ADK mics. This is unverified speculation, but I remember kidvybes dropping some hints about this when the 3U line of mics came out. A lot of the ADK mics use obviously the same bodies and headbaskets as 3U, and they both have the multi-voice feature. I had assumed the Z in Z-mod stood for Zhuang, Guosheng's last name.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2021 11:50:58 GMT -6
That whole “physics guru” thing was out of their ad copy. Just marketing I’m pretty sure. ADK doesn’t make their own capsules, they buy them from an overseas maker (like lots of other mic brands). The CK-12 they use isn’t a full on replica like Tim Campbell or Eric Heiserman make, with the exact back chamber situation of the originals. You can’t (to my knowledge) mass produce those. But the one ADK is using is indeed a nice capsule. The whole "CHINA" idea is a huge black box to me, I have no real idea what happens over there, or between here and there. That's a lot of people. All I'm relatively aware of is that they've made massive strides in their manufacturing quality in recent years, which has given them a large economic influence, but I don't want to get too political. The point is there's people over there who really know their stuff, audio wise. As far as I can tell. The Serrano 87, and this is posted in the public thread, uses a selected (of course privately sourced) K-87 capsule that is so close to the Neumann a lot of people in that thread were getting really excited about the comparison, and buying them. I think that's pretty cool. My selfish question is "where can I buy this capsule," but I guess I'll just have to do my own research or buy something ready made, like more ADK, Maiku, or any of the ones that have popped up. I wish more of this information was public but I also realize that peoples' incomes are related to certain types of part sourcing. People were talking about the CK-12 in the Heiserman 251 thread recently. JJ Blair gave props to Tim Campbell for his expertise with the chambers and all of that. You kind of want to say $400 or whatever it is, is a "good deal" for something that complex, with that many small parts. I'm sure I'll buy more capsules someday. But yes I am very happy with my simplified and yes somewhat easier to buy ADK capsule. My punk rock attitude says it's more than good enough for me. It's really interesting that Soyuz actually hand builds some capsules, they don't use automated machines. People actually do a lot of hand work, super precise tolerance kind of work, it's no wonder those mics are also as expensive as they are, the top of the line ones. I was in Shannon Rhoades shop a while back too. He has this like, two ton lathe machine in one room, a gold evaporating machine in the other room. It was utterly fascinating. I hope he's doing alright these days. Pardon the long post, the 251 thread got me hyped up. Microphones are by far my most favorite piece of audio gear.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 16, 2021 12:36:22 GMT -6
No, they design their own capsules. You sure? . Well I’m not 100% who designed the capsules, other than they had a small team of people working on it. but I’ve looked into quite a bit and I’m fairly sure 3u never had anything to do with it. But I’m happy to be corrected if someone has more info.
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Post by ragan on Jan 16, 2021 12:46:55 GMT -6
. Well I’m not 100% who designed the capsules, other than they had a small team of people working on it. but I’ve looked into quite a bit and I’m fairly sure 3u never had anything to do with it. But I’m happy to be corrected if someone has more info. I’m not gonna say anything I’ve been told in confidence but there’s a whole story there. But just to stick with what’s available publicly, ADK is getting their capsules from overseas, Guosheng is arguably the best designer/manufacturer in China, and it’s happened a couple of times where 3U comes out with a new capsule variant and shortly after that ADK offers a mic of that voicing (like Kevin showing me their new, at the time, C800 voiced mic right after Guosheng came out with that capsule). And again, I think using Guosheng’s capsules is a credit to a mic, not a debit.
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Post by ragan on Jan 16, 2021 13:04:14 GMT -6
I should say, too, that there's a lot of info in the massive 3U Audio thread at GS. And not too long after 3U made their big splash (Guosheng had been designing and manufacturing capsules for lots of brands for a couple of decades, 3U is the first time he's ever sold his own mics directly) Larry (ADK) chimed in with some back and forth. Dave Thomas makes some (colorful) appearances. It's quite an epic journey.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2021 13:08:09 GMT -6
Thanks, Ragan I'm going to head over there and look for gold nuggets.
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Post by ragan on Jan 16, 2021 13:15:53 GMT -6
Thanks, Ragan I'm going to head over there and look for gold nuggets. It's called like "Affordable LDC with multiple voicings" or something like that, nothing about 3U in the title. Dennis (KidVybes, RIP) started it when he happened to see an eBay listing with pics of the internals.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 16, 2021 13:27:55 GMT -6
Guitar I'm honestly surprised you haven't delved into 3U yet! I feel like that would be right up your alley. Insane value for the money and one of the best-kept secrets in pro audio IMO. I'm sometimes tempted to sell my M149 and grab every 3U voicing available. Or even just a few of GZ's "premium" tube mics.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 16, 2021 13:32:54 GMT -6
. Well I’m not 100% who designed the capsules, other than they had a small team of people working on it. but I’ve looked into quite a bit and I’m fairly sure 3u never had anything to do with it. But I’m happy to be corrected if someone has more info. I’m not gonna say anything I’ve been told in confidence but there’s a whole story there. But just to stick with what’s available publicly, ADK is getting their capsules from overseas, Guosheng is arguably the best designer/manufacturer in China, and it’s happened a couple of times where 3U comes out with a new capsule variant and shortly after that ADK offers a mic of that voicing (like Kevin showing me their new, at the time, C800 voiced mic right after Guosheng came out with that capsule). And again, I think using Guosheng’s capsules is a credit to a mic, not a debit. Ragan is correct. I was allowed to know some proprietary details from several people related to all this. Best IMHO to focus on the virtues, of the actual microphones. Nothing personal meant, in my keeping things confidential. So I'll treat it,like signing a NDA. Chris
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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2021 13:33:13 GMT -6
Guitar I'm honestly surprised you haven't delved into 3U yet! I feel like that would be right up your alley. Insane value for the money and one of the best-kept secrets in pro audio IMO. I'm sometimes tempted to sell my M149 and grab every 3U voicing available. Or even just a few of GZ's "premium" tube mics. Cool, thanks! I've looked at them off and on, but never jumped on one. One of those impossible differences is sound clips online vs. your own actual use, so I should probably just pick one or two to try out here in person. I found that thread, too, and I'm sure if I get into it enough it will create some hype in me. I already have a ton of mics here (I don't know, something like 40, or 50), but there of course will always be room for new contenders and things that are different enough to merit a place. It would also be fun just to try one out, take one apart. I've also heard 3U was involved with many of the Warm Audio capsules.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 16, 2021 13:35:49 GMT -6
P.S. 3U microphones sound excellent. But a properly QC'd ADK capsule, in their Premium line, is a step up IMHO. Chris
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