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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 10:21:58 GMT -6
Hey guys, trying to sort some stuff out and dial in a better VI setup. My goal is to get the best response, lowest latency from my midi controller (Novation Impulse 61).
In regards to buffer size, my session is at 88.2 and the lowest buffer I can get is 64 samples. If I create a session at 48k, I can go down to 32 samples. Is that about right? Is this a function of my interface (Motu 828ES/16a)? Is there something I can do to get down to 32 samples at higher session sample rates?
My Motu 828ES has a midi input. Is this going to introduce latency as opposed to using USB from the controller to the computer? Are there optimizations I can make in the Motu interface for midi use? I can't direct monitor VI's that are hosted in PT's to reduce latency like I can with straight audio signals like vocals, etc.
I've never took a deep dive on midi stuff, but I'm trying.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 3, 2021 12:15:05 GMT -6
One thing I can say is that any plugins you have on your midi channel or master bus will add more latency, so disable all that. I've found there to be more latency when my midi VI's are routed through group buses as well (at least in Cubase).
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 3, 2021 12:50:05 GMT -6
Hey guys, trying to sort some stuff out and dial in a better VI setup. My goal is to get the best response, lowest latency from my midi controller (Novation Impulse 61). In regards to buffer size, my session is at 88.2 and the lowest buffer I can get is 64 samples. If I create a session at 48k, I can go down to 32 samples. Is that about right? Is this a function of my interface (Motu 828ES/16a)? Is there something I can do to get down to 32 samples at higher session sample rates? My Motu 828ES has a midi input. Is this going to introduce latency as opposed to using USB from the controller to the computer? Are there optimizations I can make in the Motu interface for midi use? I can't direct monitor VI's that are hosted in PT's to reduce latency like I can with straight audio signals like vocals, etc. I've never took a deep dive on midi stuff, but I'm trying. You're doing all the right things. Lowest buffer your machine can handle at whatever sample rate you're running. The limitations of how low you can go are primarily dependent on your computer's power and the drivers for your interface. Get all latency-inducing plugins out of the signal path. Obviously if a VI has an AAX-DSP version, then great, use it. (I'm assuming there are some - have to admit I don't know and couldn't find out in a websearch.) Otherwise, when going Native, it's all about getting your RTL as low as possible. It's worth trying the MIDI port on your MOTU just to see if it's faster, but I would be pretty surprised if it made any real difference.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 3, 2021 12:53:03 GMT -6
You'll probably have to make some compromises, but you should still be able to get it to work well. Provided your computer can handle it, 88.2 kHz + 64 buffer should suffice for low latency MIDI recording. If you encounter timing issues, you can always play around with timing after the fact, i.e. grid everything and then manually humanize. Not as fun, I know, but often necessary. If you start adding more tracks/FX processing and your CPU starts to crap out: - Monitor through low CPU, zero-latency VIs and then add the real deal later. As Tbone81 noted, avoid complex bussing/routing and don't add any sort of FX processing until later. - If you have a HW synth, you might be able to use the line out for direct monitoring through the MOTU while using the MIDI out to record MIDI in Pro Tools
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 13:23:29 GMT -6
You'll probably have to make some compromises, but you should still be able to get it to work well. Provided your computer can handle it, 88.2 kHz + 64ms buffer should suffice for low latency MIDI recording. If you encounter timing issues, you can always play around with timing after the fact, i.e. grid everything and then manually humanize. Not as fun, I know, but often necessary. If you start adding more tracks/FX processing and your CPU starts to crap out: - Monitor through low CPU, zero-latency VIs and then add the real deal later. As Tbone81 noted, avoid complex bussing/routing and don't add any sort of FX processing until later. - If you have a HW synth, you might be able to use the line out for direct monitoring through the MOTU while using the MIDI out to record MIDI in Pro Tools I have a 2020 i7 iMac, 64GB RAM, so I feel pretty confident that my CPU is up to the task. Which is why I was surprised to not be able to go down to a 32 sample buffer, but maybe that’s a limitation when using higher sample rates? I do have a HW synth, a Prophet Rev 2, but I’m actually trying to see if I can get some VI’s working (U-He Diva/Repro is half off right now) and sell the HW.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 3, 2021 13:40:33 GMT -6
indiehouseI have a much less robust iMac (Late 2015 i5, 8GB RAM), but my real-world performance seems to be pretty similar to yours. I also work at 88.2, and 64 samples is relatively painless for me, whereas 32 is where it starts to get wishy washy. FWIW, I've never had any show-stopping latency with 64, or even 128 for that matter.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 13:45:15 GMT -6
indiehouse I have a much less robust iMac (Late 2015 i5, 8GB RAM), but my real-world performance seems to be pretty similar to yours. I also work at 88.2, and 64 samples is relatively painless for me, whereas 32 is where it starts to get wishy washy. FWIW, I've never had any show-stopping latency with 64, or even 128 for that matter. But you actually have the option to go down to 32 samples at 88.2? I don't have that option. 64 is the lowest option I have at 88.2 and higher. Why is that? I feel like my computer could handle it.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 13:48:57 GMT -6
One thing I can say is that any plugins you have on your midi channel or master bus will add more latency, so disable all that. I've found there to be more latency when my midi VI's are routed through group buses as well (at least in Cubase). Nice! Thanks for that nugget of info. I had bypassed the master bus plugins, but disabling them completely reduced latency.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 3, 2021 14:03:28 GMT -6
indiehouse I have a much less robust iMac (Late 2015 i5, 8GB RAM), but my real-world performance seems to be pretty similar to yours. I also work at 88.2, and 64 samples is relatively painless for me, whereas 32 is where it starts to get wishy washy. FWIW, I've never had any show-stopping latency with 64, or even 128 for that matter. But you actually have the option to go down to 32 samples at 88.2? I don't have that option. 64 is the lowest option I have at 88.2 and higher. Why is that? I feel like my computer could handle it. That is indeed strange. I'm guessing it's an issue with either the DAW or interface. Been a while since I used PT, but I definitely have the option for 32 samples in both Reaper and Logic. Maybe try a different DAW to troubleshoot? By chance are you connecting the MOTU via USB? If so, maybe Thunderbolt would be worth investigating. Just tossing some ideas out there.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 14:12:46 GMT -6
See, now all of a sudden I've got no output. At all. I see the signal coming in, going through the VI's, going through the track and even out the main buss. But no audio. Not registering on the main out of the Motu.
It's shit like this that has always kept me from midi. You gotta be a damn computer programmer anymore to figure this stuff out.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 14:13:17 GMT -6
But you actually have the option to go down to 32 samples at 88.2? I don't have that option. 64 is the lowest option I have at 88.2 and higher. Why is that? I feel like my computer could handle it. That is indeed strange. I'm guessing it's an issue with either the DAW or interface. Been a while since I used PT, but I definitely have the option for 32 samples in both Reaper and Logic. Maybe try a different DAW to troubleshoot? By chance are you connecting the MOTU via USB? If so, maybe Thunderbolt would be worth investigating. Just tossing some ideas out there. No, I'm running TB here.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 3, 2021 14:52:19 GMT -6
indiehouseDamn that's frustrating. I occasionally get audio dropouts when messing with sample rates/buffer sizes. Usually resolved by restarting the DAW, but very rarely I'll have to restart the interface or computer. Annoying but I've pretty much just accepted it as a fact of life. If you're using any systemwide audio apps like Audio Hijack or Sonarworks, disable them. Close out of any other apps that run audio. Also double check there's no version compatibility issues between your OS, interface, and DAW. Maybe the MOTU needs a driver update? But yeah, basic MIDI operations shouldn't cause you that much grief. There's gotta be something that's not working like it's supposed to.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 3, 2021 14:59:51 GMT -6
If you use Cubase, there is a little "window" above the fader that shows the added DSP latency of the channel. If it's empty, it's zero, and if there's a number, some plugin is latent. For example, if you stick any UAD plugin on there, there's going to be a massive round trip latency. I usually track with low latency plugins like other people have said, like softube tape for example, which has 100 micro seconds of latency, .1ms. It's nice to have this reported by Cubase. Some plugins with oversampling or "high quality" modes will extend the latency in those modes, and can be avoided during performance.
Any buses that come after the input channel will also cause latency, such as the mix bus, etc, as others have said. I have to turn of Elevate Limiter when tracking, so I use the Cubase "Limiter" plugin which has .1ms latency, as a temporary processor.
There could be background processes, deferred procedure call interrupts, things like that happening, but I don't know much about it, and I'm on Windows, not Mac. In Windows there's a free utility app called LatencyMon that can report clues about these specific interferences.
For example, I suspect my NVidia video card might be adding some to the CPU requirements, and the home network process as well, which I should probably address.
Some virtual instruments seem to be CPU hungry also, I have been having that trouble here, with my 2014 i7 PC. I think a solution there is to bounce down or freeze the track, at least temporarly, when not in use.
It's also possible that running a lower sample rate could improve the stability of your session and allow you to get more tracks and processing in, since 88 kHz rate requires twice the CPU power as a 44 kHz session, for every single plugin used.
Also, it's cool that you're shopping uHe I absolutely love those synths. I have been woodshedding with Zebra 2, and I plan to buy Dark Zebra and Repro tomorrow, before the sale expires.
I can't speak to MIDI interface latency because I know zero about it.
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Post by LesC on Jan 3, 2021 15:09:41 GMT -6
My MOTU 828es gives me ridiculously high latency, using USB on a PC. I've just ordered an RME AIO Pro (PCIE), probably the lowest latency currently available. I'm hoping it will be sufficient to allow me to use keyboard VI's and guitar processor software without having to use physical sound modules or guitar effects units for direct monitoring.
As a side benefit, I'm hoping to be able to get rid of the 828es. I detest the MOTU routing/mixing/effects software compared to RME TotalMix.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 3, 2021 15:19:55 GMT -6
LesC How many audio channels will you be running with the AIO Pro? I don't want to hijack the thread but that looks like a really nice interface. The RME literature claims 30 inputs but for the life of me I can only see about half of that by studying the manual.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 16:00:25 GMT -6
What causes those short audio dropouts? Is that the buffer setting too low?
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Post by Guitar on Jan 3, 2021 16:04:50 GMT -6
What causes those short audio dropouts? Is that the buffer setting too low? I am still learning, so bear with me. What is happening is the CPU is being asked to do too much, in to short of a time. When the audio buffer time expires, your audio has either been "crunched" by the CPU within the designated time frame, or not. If not, you'll get the drop outs. You can either give it more time, by raising the buffer, or give it less to do, by minimizing processes. Removing plugins, closing applications that don't need to be running, turning off oversampling, running a lower session sample rate, and so on. I hope this is accurate, if there are any computer experts on here, I'd love to hear more.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 3, 2021 16:50:22 GMT -6
What causes those short audio dropouts? Is that the buffer setting too low? I am still learning, so bear with me. What is happening is the CPU is being asked to do too much, in to short of a time. When the audio buffer time expires, your audio has either been "crunched" by the CPU within the designated time frame, or not. If not, you'll get the drop outs. You can either give it more time, by raising the buffer, or give it less to do, by minimizing processes. Removing plugins, closing applications that don't need to be running, turning off oversampling, running a lower session sample rate, and so on. I hope this is accurate, if there are any computer experts on here, I'd love to hear more. Hmmm...I’m running 1 plugin VI (Addictive Keys Upright), at 24/48, 32 sample buffer on a 2020 i7 iMac (64 GB RAM), and I still get audio dropouts? Doesn’t seem like I should.
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Post by LesC on Jan 3, 2021 16:51:20 GMT -6
LesC How many audio channels will you be running with the AIO Pro? I don't want to hijack the thread but that looks like a really nice interface. The RME literature claims 30 inputs but for the life of me I can only see about half of that by studying the manual. Yes, the AIO Pro looks really nice. I'm not sure if my crappy old PC will be too noisy to use the AIO's convertors, it will be interesting to see. I also wish the AIO had the DSP chip so that TotalMix FX included the FX.
The channel counts include the following:
Input - ADAT (8), analog (2), coax SPDIF (2), AES (2) = 14
Output - ADAT (8), analog (4 including headphones), coax SPDIF (2), AES (2) = 16
So I think the "30-Channels" specified by RME is the 14-in plus the 16-out channels.
I'm a special case on this forum, strictly amateur/hobby, I haven't recorded in a professional studio since 1972. So for me, 4 channels of input/output are sufficient, 2 channels for recording and monitoring, and 2 channels for an analog chain. I've also ordered an RME ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, to be used as my primary recording input channels and my DAC/Monitor Controller. The 2 analog I/O of the AIO Pro will be for my analog chain, assuming they aren't overwhelmed by EMI from my crappy old PC.
I've owned an original RME ADI-2 Pro previously, so I know it is absolutely perfect for me as a monitor controller. By reprogramming the buttons and using the on-board DSP, I can completely control my Focal Shape 50's and stereo SVS SB-2000's. I can with single-button presses control full-range speakers without sub vs. filtered speakers with filtered subs, mono vs. stereo, channels in-phase or out-of-phase, and stand-alone convertor use (through the AIO Pro) vs. USB. The ADI-2 Pro DSP and programming capabilities are amazing, this was the main reason I chose the ADI-2 Pro instead of something like the Topping DX7 Pro.
Plus the fact that the ADI-2 Pro includes a good clean ADC without having to shell out for something like a Mytek Brooklyn ADC. So considering the ADC and the DAC and the monitor controller capabilities, the ADI-2 Pro is an incredible bargain. An equivalent or better combination of units from other manufacturers would easily be double the price, at least from what I can determine. Would I prefer to have a Cranesong or Dangerous or Burl ADC (which I've owned previously) and a Grace M905 or Cranesong or Dangerous DAC/Monitor Controller (which I've owned previously), I don't know. I enjoy playing with stuff.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 3, 2021 16:55:02 GMT -6
I am still learning, so bear with me. What is happening is the CPU is being asked to do too much, in to short of a time. When the audio buffer time expires, your audio has either been "crunched" by the CPU within the designated time frame, or not. If not, you'll get the drop outs. You can either give it more time, by raising the buffer, or give it less to do, by minimizing processes. Removing plugins, closing applications that don't need to be running, turning off oversampling, running a lower session sample rate, and so on. I hope this is accurate, if there are any computer experts on here, I'd love to hear more. Hmmm...I’m running 1 plugin VI (Addictive Keys Upright), at 24/48, 32 sample buffer on a 2020 i7 iMac (64 GB RAM), and I still get audio dropouts? Doesn’t seem like I should. 32 is a challenging buffer for a lot of computers and interfaces. The lowest I can seem to run here (Presonus Quantum, i7 4.4GHz CPU) is 64 samples. It's possible like others have said that the MOTU itself is a little slow or unstable for your purposes. I know that's not good news but it is possible. It could be "some other problem" like people are saying, undetermined. But I suspect the buffer might need to be raised.
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Post by LesC on Jan 3, 2021 16:57:15 GMT -6
Getting back to the original purpose of this thread, when I get my RME stuff in a couple of weeks, I will check and compare VI latency with the 828es (USB), the ADI-2 Pro (USB), and the AIO Pro (PCIE). I'm really looking forward to the results!
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Post by Guitar on Jan 3, 2021 17:07:46 GMT -6
One small factor I forgot to mention is that a virtual instrument with no audio input, for example Addictive Keys, will only be using the output buffer, not a round trip, so a somewhat larger buffer size may be tolerable, than, say, a guitar amp plugin running round trip.
At least I think this is right. You may want to turn off Asio Guard in Cubase if you have it engaged in the control panel. Take a close look at your interfaces buffer settings, and your DAW's audio interface settings.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 3, 2021 17:13:58 GMT -6
I am still learning, so bear with me. What is happening is the CPU is being asked to do too much, in to short of a time. When the audio buffer time expires, your audio has either been "crunched" by the CPU within the designated time frame, or not. If not, you'll get the drop outs. You can either give it more time, by raising the buffer, or give it less to do, by minimizing processes. Removing plugins, closing applications that don't need to be running, turning off oversampling, running a lower session sample rate, and so on. I hope this is accurate, if there are any computer experts on here, I'd love to hear more. Hmmm...I’m running 1 plugin VI (Addictive Keys Upright), at 24/48, 32 sample buffer on a 2020 i7 iMac (64 GB RAM), and I still get audio dropouts? Doesn’t seem like I should. It really does sound like something's amiss here. DAW performance at 32 samples is kind of up for grabs, but you should definitely at least have the option to select it at 88.2... that sounds like there's a problem somewhere. Just for clarity, are you still getting the dropouts at 64 or just 32? 64 samples at 88.2/96 is usually more than sufficient for low latency recording. If there isn't any glaring reason to use 32, I wouldn't worry about it. Your Mac is considerably more powerful than mine — you should be able to use Addictive Keys at 88.2/64 without breaking a sweat. I can open a new Reaper project at 88.2/64 and fire up several instances of high-CPU Arturia & NI synths with no issue. Hell, I used to be able to do 96/64 back in 2013 using a cheap Focusrite interface and an even older Mac.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 3, 2021 17:17:59 GMT -6
LesC I didn't realize the ADI-2 could do all that, that's kind of impressive. Thanks for the details. I have a Topping/Drawmer stack here for playback and monitor control, it hangs off the back of the Quantum rack. I love this stuff too. Realistically I am an amateur hobbyist as well, the only money I've made from music in the past few years is selling Wolfboxes, and maybe $40 in gas money from a performance a few years back. Maybe $50 bucks in Bandcamp sales. Hey, I just paid for an SM57, nice.
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Post by LesC on Jan 3, 2021 17:47:01 GMT -6
LesC I didn't realize the ADI-2 could do all that, that's kind of impressive. Thanks for the details. I have a Topping/Drawmer stack here for playback and monitor control, it hangs off the back of the Quantum rack. I love this stuff too. Realistically I am an amateur hobbyist as well, the only money I've made from music in the past few years is selling Wolfboxes, and maybe $40 in gas money from a performance a few years back. Maybe $50 bucks in Bandcamp sales. Hey, I just paid for an SM57, nice. I've also had a Drawmer mc2.1 and a Dangerous Source. Both were good. The ADI-2 Pro really is on a whole different level, I've barely touched on the capabilities. At my age, I suspect the ADI-2 Pro combined with the AIO Pro may be my last "interface".
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