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Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2021 17:03:36 GMT -6
Unless it was a B*$*%nger That was usually because of the fact it was DOA or the fact that DOA would have been a far better tone. I've seen people tape over the logos of their X-32 and whatnot. Weird history with that man and his company.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 4, 2021 19:45:42 GMT -6
Is the original 251 that big? Was 251 E ( export ? ) the USA version & did it have a 6072 or AC701?
Is there a different letter like 251 D ( domestic, made in & used in Europe etc ) that signifies the capsule & tube?
Why are the two mics that are so different named the same? Did the engineers believe the two mics were identical in sound or did they know each mic ( 6072 vs ac701 ) had their own sound signatures?
Also is there not revisions of this mic stating which components the original was made with? It seems there is at least 3 - 4 versions dep on the diff components so I can see how they would vary.
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2021 21:00:48 GMT -6
Mics evolve over time. Transformers change, tubes change, capsules change, components change. Nature of the beast. Companies are always trying to shave costs and improve products. Sometimes they actually get both right. Sometimes they don't. The U47 and U87 both are subject to this. On the 87 at least they went to the Ai version, but even then, there are mid-stream revisions both labeled "Ai". I think the 47 was always a U47, but there are many different variations.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 4, 2021 21:12:21 GMT -6
I also think gear manufacturers of old might not have imagined how tweaky and obsessive we would one day become about everything.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2021 21:16:54 GMT -6
It still baffles me that Rein Narma built Fairchild compressors on Les Paul's kitchen table. Some people get to have all the fun.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 4, 2021 21:24:05 GMT -6
Is the original 251 that big? Was 251 E ( export ? ) the USA version & did it have a 6072 or AC701? Is there a different letter like 251 D ( domestic, made in & used in Europe etc ) that signifies the capsule & tube? Why are the two mics that are so different named the same? Did the engineers believe the two mics were identical in sound or did they know each mic ( 6072 vs ac701 ) had their own sound signatures? Also is there not revisions of this mic stating which components the original was made with? It seems there is at least 3 - 4 versions dep on the diff components so I can see how they would vary. The originsl 251 was made for the european market using the AC701 tube because German Broadcasting had decide to use only one type of tube for all mics,the AC701, that was designed specially for microphones. All the manufacturers switched to that tube.Hence you have the U67 as an M269 because it had an AC701. or all the Schoeps and Neumann KM54,56...
It didn't play well for the American market. Those tubes were rare and so they wanted an easy to get, american made tube and so they settled on the 6072a and called it the E or export model.
The tube variant is easy to see depending upon if the body has no designation letter (AC701) or an E (6072). The capsule depends on year of manufacture or if it has ever been serviced with capsule problems. AKG would always swap capsules instead of repair them.
I have even worked on the original ELAM251 benchmark headbasket assembly with capsule that AKG kept at the factory for reference.
I thought I had posted pics here of it.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 4, 2021 21:32:03 GMT -6
Why are the two mics that are so different named the same? Did the engineers believe the two mics were identical in sound or did they know each mic ( 6072 vs ac701 ) had their own sound signatures? NAB versus CCIR maybe swamps the differences too! ...and a much less 'international' world also made it fine and just about impossible to discern, how many people would have compared anything? It didn't matter, it was a step on the path of progress and evolution, which was still a thing then. On to the next.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 4, 2021 22:31:26 GMT -6
As 251 was an intended replacement for U47, where these mics originally designed for broadcast VO radio use or made for recording instruments & singing? So the diff tubes was a solution to serve two separate markets. I do believe there was a lot of skill, passion & great ears that went into these mics or we wouldn’t be going crazy about recreating them 60+ years later! I don’t know if that would be a solution today. I could see the 50 page thread now if for Ex: Heiserman put tube A in US 251 mic & tube B in export 251 mic
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Post by hadaja on Jan 4, 2021 22:50:55 GMT -6
I don’t know if that would be a solution today. I could see the 50 page thread now if for Ex: Heiserman put tube A in US 251 mic & tube B in export 251 mic And you know i would read everyone of those 50 pages with great anticipation. i am enjoying reading the history and some of the finer things from the world of 251’s. thanks Tim and you other guys. Sounds great.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 5, 2021 5:32:35 GMT -6
As 251 was an intended replacement for U47, where these mics originally designed for broadcast VO radio use or made for recording instruments & singing? So the diff tubes was a solution to serve two separate markets. I do believe there was a lot of skill, passion & great ears that went into these mics or we wouldn’t be going crazy about recreating them 60+ years later! I don’t know if that would be a solution today. I could see the 50 page thread now if for Ex: Heiserman put tube A in US 251 mic & tube B in export 251 mic I don't want to cross any lines by mentioning another manufacturer in this thread, although I am not in any way affiliated with them, but T-Funk does this.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 5, 2021 11:14:36 GMT -6
It looks like the "E" version has a modern 6072A with a fancy green silk screen label on it. Peluso does this too with their "selected" tubes.
It looks like the "T" version uses an NOS Telefunken ECC801S
I hope I am not stirring any pots I just am obsessed with 251 microphones, my favorite thing to sing on.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 5, 2021 11:21:56 GMT -6
deleted, wrong information
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Post by roundbadge on Jan 6, 2021 2:08:56 GMT -6
look forward to hearing one of these next to my Upton and and friends original.
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Post by Ward on Jan 6, 2021 6:33:41 GMT -6
look forward to hearing one of these next to my Upton and and friends original. Would it be possible to make a comparison AV file?
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 6, 2021 9:22:29 GMT -6
look forward to hearing one of these next to my Upton and and friends original. Would it be possible to make a comparison AV file? Not unless they send him the prototype
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Post by roundbadge on Jan 12, 2021 0:55:47 GMT -6
Hey sent an email to the Heiserman gang about ordering a mic..havent heard back.
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Post by hadaja on Jan 12, 2021 1:00:28 GMT -6
Yep they are a bit like that, but I imagine they are busy with catching up on outstanding H47t orders and Type 19 orders and the like.
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Post by roundbadge on Jan 12, 2021 1:45:49 GMT -6
Yep they are a bit like that, but I imagine they are busy with catching up on outstanding H47t orders and Type 19 orders and the like. hmm.
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Post by lordalvin on Jan 12, 2021 7:44:59 GMT -6
Hey sent an email to the Heiserman gang about ordering a mic..havent heard back. They aren't taking orders for the ELA H 251 yet. It's still in development.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 12, 2021 12:29:46 GMT -6
Hey sent an email to the Heiserman gang about ordering a mic..havent heard back. Sent a response this morning. We try to (and usually) respond to emails within 24 hours (not including weekends). Being a small company, we might not respond as fast companies with dedicated customer service. I split my time between building gear and answering emails, chat messages, etc. Sometimes an email slips through the cracks -- Sorry if we're slow sometimes I put my phone number in every email, so I'm never very hard to reach...
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Post by teejay on Jan 12, 2021 12:59:33 GMT -6
Hey sent an email to the Heiserman gang about ordering a mic..havent heard back. Sent a response this morning. We try to respond to emails within 24 hours. Being a small company, we might not response as fast companies with dedicated customer service. I split my time between building gear and answering emails, chat messages, etc. The Heiserman team has always been very responsive to my inquiries, and customer service as I demoed the mic and capsules was stellar. From my experience I have nothing but great things to say about the team and and the products.
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Post by roundbadge on Jan 13, 2021 2:10:23 GMT -6
Hey sent an email to the Heiserman gang about ordering a mic..havent heard back. Sent a response this morning. We try to (and usually) respond to emails within 24 hours (not including weekends). Being a small company, we might not respond as fast companies with dedicated customer service. I split my time between building gear and answering emails, chat messages, etc. Sometimes an email slips through the cracks -- Sorry if we're slow sometimes I put my phone number in every email, so I'm never very hard to reach... all good! Thank you guys. Mic ordered with both heads.
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Post by Ward on Jan 13, 2021 22:13:52 GMT -6
Sent a response this morning. We try to (and usually) respond to emails within 24 hours (not including weekends). Being a small company, we might not respond as fast companies with dedicated customer service. I split my time between building gear and answering emails, chat messages, etc. Sometimes an email slips through the cracks -- Sorry if we're slow sometimes I put my phone number in every email, so I'm never very hard to reach... all good! Thank you guys. Mic ordered with both heads. Welcome to the club, fam!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 13, 2021 23:30:30 GMT -6
Sent a response this morning. We try to (and usually) respond to emails within 24 hours (not including weekends). Being a small company, we might not respond as fast companies with dedicated customer service. I split my time between building gear and answering emails, chat messages, etc. Sometimes an email slips through the cracks -- Sorry if we're slow sometimes I put my phone number in every email, so I'm never very hard to reach... all good! Thank you guys. Mic ordered with both heads. Look forward to your takes on the 47.
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Post by jjblair on Jan 15, 2021 15:28:24 GMT -6
New to this site. Got a link to this thread, and had to chime in because I am such a 251 nerd. I've spent a bunch of years rebuilding and tweaking vintage and repro versions, and testing an analyzing dozens of vintage 251's and C12's.
This is great news. I've gotten the chance meet Eric and talk to him about mics, and his attention to the things that in my experience have turned out to be the important parts of a character of a mic have me excited to hear what he's come up with. I am also happy to see that he's recreated the internal perspex structure of these mics, because I believe that they are part of the sound of a 251.
I have a 251 that I have considered to be the gold standard of where I like these things to sit, tonally. A number of people have agreed with me, and sent me various 251's they were considering buying to compare. As with most mics, 90% of the difference between one mic of the same variety and the next is the capsule. And in mics such as 251's, C12's and 47's, where a simple plate loaded circuit is used, with a minimum or no filtration employed, the capsule is generally the first thing you notice as why two may not sound alike. When I acquired a vintage 250, Tim worked with me on tuning that mic's CK12 so that I had a matched pair of ELAM's. His understanding of the CK12 is truly remarkable. It might be the most complicated capsule that is in common existence. So many variables that are required to be aligned properly in order to achieve proper tonal balance. Not to mention, AKG sputtered their mylar in a completely different manner than everybody else, and even that affects the movement of the mylar in a way that makes the sound of these capsules unique. Oliver had hipped me to this maybe years ago, by showing me microscopic images of the different gold layers and how the movement is affected.
I differ from Tim's experience in one area: I have a large pile of NOS white paint, 5 star GE 6072's. I find their tone to be extremely uniform. It's been more about noise floor when I choose one over another. I have found other makes of 12AY7's to get outside the tonal ballpark, particularly new ones. They lack in either top end, low end or both. I'm doubtful that anybody can execute a 6072 that replicates the tone of the GE. Hearing that bottom octave missing on the new EF86's that Neumann is using, and I'm sure they tried their hardest to find the best tube available, makes me even more skeptical.
Other tubes are available, and I know that Tele has used the 12AT7, but the bass response of those makes the mic no longer sound like a 251. But as Eric well knows, the relationship between the tube and transformer has everything to do with the frequency balance. If he finds as suitable tube, I suspect something other than a T14/1 will have to be employed, without modification.
But for me, even with all the mics I have in my collection, I always consider my ELAM's to be the crown jewel. It's presence peak is problematic on some instruments and voices, but it gives a richness and intimacy that nothing else does, and makes my job as an engineer so much easier, when used on the correct sources. OH, piano, airy voices, acoustic guitar ... nothing beats it. I can't wait to hear these.
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