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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 16, 2020 19:04:58 GMT -6
Things I've done a couple times when I had a similar problem: 1. I was monitoring the inputs in Console and didn't have input monitoring on in the DAW. 2. Monitoring my insert outputs rather than my master bus on the way back in. 3. Had the wrong inputs armed. I'm sure you've checked those but that's all the info my experience can lend at this moment. Good luck! Let us know if you figure it out (and how you fixed it)! Let me ask - say I'm sending every drum channel to a drum bus and want to put a HW comp on the drum bus. Should I click the input monitoring on for each individual drum track? The AUX doesn't have an input monitoring clicky thing. (This is how technical I am)...I can hear the effected drums, they're just out of time with the rest of the track...I guess I AM monitoring inputs in console because if I mute that, I get nothing. Oh - does Low Latency mode have to be off? I bet that's it - it's the reason I'm not hearing anything when I mute console... Gonna go try. Low latency won’t be the issue. I’ve had this problem with my Apollo 16 as wel John, not sure what model you have. For some reason the ins and outs don’t line up with how pro tools wants to see it. You can check by putting a hardware insert and just connecting the ins directly to the outs with no hardware and you still won’t get signal. I’ve skirted the issue by using a summing box, so my drums go out 1/2 into a hardware comp and then into the summing box. Kinda sucks but it works when I have to work at home. This is the main reason my next interface will be an HDX system, and I’ll just get a UAD Satellite. Anything other than that is simply a pain in the ass. I have a hard enough time mixing and don’t need the extra headaches (and no I’m not leaving PT)
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 16, 2020 19:15:56 GMT -6
I completely and totally understand why someone would choose to stay with Pro Tools, but I'll also say it's bullshit like this that made me leave Digidesign in 2003/4. No way I could've afforded a TDM rig, and they were making everything in PT LE harder than it needed to be just to nudge people up the ladder.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 16, 2020 19:24:07 GMT -6
Also to add...
I think it really comes down to the BS way that companies market their interface’s I/O specs by using headphone and monitor outs as being part of the ins and outs. They aren’t, they are for monitoring purposes. So now, you have the 1/2 outputs labeled as “monitor” outs when they shouldn’t be, which pushes your outputs down the line, and in turn throwing off the 1:1 ins and outs that pro tools uses for their hardware inserts.
Totally baffling to me.
Also - I totally get why people leave pro tools. There are other options that make better sense for some people. I just can’t move away from it.
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Post by drbill on Dec 16, 2020 19:48:47 GMT -6
I just can’t move away from it. Nor I. IMO it's the best option out there for me. I mean, AVID pisses me off sometimes, but it's always the right call for me, so I put up with the BS.
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Post by thirdeye on Dec 16, 2020 22:07:38 GMT -6
I can't figure it out. I just can't. I give up. I know how to calculate, but for some reason when I use inserts, I'm not getting a delay, I'm getting a pre delay. like the effected signal is being placed BEFORE the original when it's recorded. So, I can record that, measure the difference in samples and then enter it in Time Adjuster and it's in time...but I'm also not getting any metering on my AUX. Would I not be able to use any plugs AFTER the insert? Isn't that the point of the insert? You’re using the Time Adjuster plugin? So you’re delaying all the other tracks that don’t have the HW insert on them? I’ve always entered the figure into the I/O settings menu for hardware inserts. Isn't what ragan is saying the correct answer to fix the issue? Measure the round trip latency then go to the i/o settings and enter the delay into the HW insert delay settings for the i/o being used. No time adjuster plugin needed. I used to do the same thing with PTLE. Also with PTHD/PTHDx with non-Avid/Digi interfaces (except the Lynx Auroras I'm using that mimic Avid interface's latency perfectly).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 23:08:43 GMT -6
I completely and totally understand why someone would choose to stay with Pro Tools, but I'll also say it's bullshit like this that made me leave Digidesign in 2003/4. No way I could've afforded a TDM rig, and they were making everything in PT LE harder than it needed to be just to nudge people up the ladder. They do it force you into HDX and buy an overpriced AVID interface. I’ve been on Reaper since forever. I don’t even have anything else installed right now.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2020 1:18:15 GMT -6
Let me ask - say I'm sending every drum channel to a drum bus and want to put a HW comp on the drum bus. Should I click the input monitoring on for each individual drum track? The AUX doesn't have an input monitoring clicky thing. (This is how technical I am)...I can hear the effected drums, they're just out of time with the rest of the track...I guess I AM monitoring inputs in console because if I mute that, I get nothing. Oh - does Low Latency mode have to be off? I bet that's it - it's the reason I'm not hearing anything when I mute console... Gonna go try. Low latency won’t be the issue. I’ve had this problem with my Apollo 16 as wel John, not sure what model you have. For some reason the ins and outs don’t line up with how pro tools wants to see it. You can check by putting a hardware insert and just connecting the ins directly to the outs with no hardware and you still won’t get signal. I’ve skirted the issue by using a summing box, so my drums go out 1/2 into a hardware comp and then into the summing box. Kinda sucks but it works when I have to work at home. This is the main reason my next interface will be an HDX system, and I’ll just get a UAD Satellite. Anything other than that is simply a pain in the ass. I have a hard enough time mixing and don’t need the extra headaches (and no I’m not leaving PT) It’s not the routing per se that has me confused...that’s just a matter of adjusting one stereo pair over. I’m getting signal to the outboard fine...it’s the return I guess I’m not understanding. Maybe it has to be the same input numbers as output numbers? Seems like I read that somewhere...I just don’t understand why it would be playing early...maybe because I’m monitoring via console...but I’ve got to figure out how to hear it from the daw...
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2020 1:20:03 GMT -6
You’re using the Time Adjuster plugin? So you’re delaying all the other tracks that don’t have the HW insert on them? I’ve always entered the figure into the I/O settings menu for hardware inserts. Isn't what ragan is saying the correct answer to fix the issue? Measure the round trip latency then go to the i/o settings and enter the delay into the HW insert delay settings for the i/o being used. No time adjuster plugin needed. I used to do the same thing with PTLE. Also with PTHD/PTHDx with non-Avid/Digi interfaces (except the Lynx Auroras I'm using that mimic Avid interface's latency perfectly). It would be if it worked. Adding the numbers into insert delay does nothing.
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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 17, 2020 3:24:05 GMT -6
Low latency won’t be the issue. I’ve had this problem with my Apollo 16 as wel John, not sure what model you have. For some reason the ins and outs don’t line up with how pro tools wants to see it. You can check by putting a hardware insert and just connecting the ins directly to the outs with no hardware and you still won’t get signal. I’ve skirted the issue by using a summing box, so my drums go out 1/2 into a hardware comp and then into the summing box. Kinda sucks but it works when I have to work at home. This is the main reason my next interface will be an HDX system, and I’ll just get a UAD Satellite. Anything other than that is simply a pain in the ass. I have a hard enough time mixing and don’t need the extra headaches (and no I’m not leaving PT) It’s not the routing per se that has me confused...that’s just a matter of adjusting one stereo pair over. I’m getting signal to the outboard fine...it’s the return I guess I’m not understanding. Maybe it has to be the same input numbers as output numbers? Seems like I read that somewhere...I just don’t understand why it would be playing early...maybe because I’m monitoring via console...but I’ve got to figure out how to hear it from the daw... YES! that is the issue. It needs to be the same numbers in pro tools. So your Insert routing needs to be 3-4 out and 3-4 in. You can't send out 3-4 and come in on 1-2 for instance.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 17, 2020 6:26:08 GMT -6
Sounds like it to me as well. The fact that you aren’t getting a return signal is telling. In my similar issues with PT’s, I get a return signal. Sounds like your I/O isn’t aligned. It’s been awhile, but I think there is a setting in the UAD configuration software? As well as shifting the inputs in PT’s? (I think). You’re getting the delay probably because your monitoring the return through Console.
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Post by Drew @ UA on Dec 17, 2020 9:07:38 GMT -6
Especially since the new hybrid engine is coming to HDX users too. That's going to be game changing. But yeah. Fellow HDX user here. Once I went to it, never looking back. Bulletproof. I mean, I guess it comes down to which brand you go with...I am already heavily invested in the UAD brand with it's own HDX like products...So - I guess I'm either waiting for Luna to get HW inserts or buying HDX. Drew @ UA Just wondered if there was anything I might be NOT doing with Apollo. I've moved my inserts over by one. I know I had some Cue issues in Luna because I had my I/O jacked in Console. I believe it's set to PT 32 Default now...so that shouldn't be any issue, right? Hi John, The core issue is that Avid has not written a ping utility for PT like Logic and S1 etc have. This is of course to trigger HDX sales. Ironically, once LUNA has Hardware Inserts, it’ll behave exactly like HDX (except it’s free) and no ping utility will be needed there either. I did a quick vid for you this AM because there are some things to watch out for. Namely with it printing early, that's Avid's ignore errors bug I'd bet. See here: www.dropbox.com/s/vt8b5h5aaygpbou/Hardware%20Inserts.mp4?dl=0Let me know how it goes.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2020 9:28:56 GMT -6
I mean, I guess it comes down to which brand you go with...I am already heavily invested in the UAD brand with it's own HDX like products...So - I guess I'm either waiting for Luna to get HW inserts or buying HDX. Drew @ UA Just wondered if there was anything I might be NOT doing with Apollo. I've moved my inserts over by one. I know I had some Cue issues in Luna because I had my I/O jacked in Console. I believe it's set to PT 32 Default now...so that shouldn't be any issue, right? Hi John, The core issue is that Avid has not written a ping utility for PT like Logic and S1 etc have. This is of course to trigger HDX sales. Ironically, once LUNA has Hardware Inserts, it’ll behave exactly like HDX (except it’s free) and no ping utility will be needed there either. I did a quick vid for you this AM because there are some things to watch out for. Namely with it printing early, that's Avid's ignore errors bug I'd bet. See here: www.dropbox.com/s/vt8b5h5aaygpbou/Hardware%20Inserts.mp4?dl=0Let me know how it goes. You are the MAN
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Post by Drew @ UA on Dec 17, 2020 14:00:28 GMT -6
I forgot to mention in my vid that LLM must be off to do hardware inserts. This is a PT thing.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2020 16:33:36 GMT -6
PRAISE THE LORD Drew @ UA is the man...So - my settings in Console weren't right - I selected the Single Apollo x6 PT preset in console...and followed some screenshots Drew sent...then calculated and entered the latency and it seems to be working. Drew, do I need to change these settings when using other DAWS?
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 17, 2020 16:54:27 GMT -6
I completely and totally understand why someone would choose to stay with Pro Tools, but I'll also say it's bullshit like this that made me leave Digidesign in 2003/4. No way I could've afforded a TDM rig, and they were making everything in PT LE harder than it needed to be just to nudge people up the ladder.
With the newer macs we also would not miss DSP systems a lot.
I was there when HDX made more than one time a problem. I could not resist to ask them why they pay tons of money to have several hours of downtime + making a bad impression on the customer. They sold the Avid setup 4 years ago and never looked back...
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Post by Drew @ UA on Dec 17, 2020 18:43:44 GMT -6
PRAISE THE LORD Drew @ UA is the man...So - my settings in Console weren't right - I selected the Single Apollo x6 PT preset in console...and followed some screenshots Drew sent...then calculated and entered the latency and it seems to be working. Drew, do I need to change these settings when using other DAWS? Sweet!!! All DAWs should be the same, but every sample rate change and buffer setting will be different.
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Post by adamjbrass on Dec 18, 2020 13:15:19 GMT -6
You could easily solve this by patching into a summing box instead It’s also easy to solve by using a plug in. Would you like to elaborate? You mean a $2000 D Box that has inserts and/or Time Adjuster? My overall point was that using an analog summing box allows you to patch in outboard gear very easily, in order to avoid this issue. Secondly, replacing the hardware insert plug in and outboard with a plug in/software tool fixes the issue. And the music will still be good and your job is done.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2021 12:28:25 GMT -6
Just got to remember how the hell to use inserts in Pro Tools...I'd just do it in Cubase, but I'm already halfway through the mix.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2021 16:29:29 GMT -6
I CAN NOT figure out how to use a fucking HW insert in PT. Just can't figure it out.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 25, 2021 16:34:56 GMT -6
I CAN NOT figure out how to use a fucking HW insert in PT. Just can't figure it out. You'll be sick of printing again after 2 mixes. Just stay ITB.
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Post by indiehouse on May 25, 2021 16:47:19 GMT -6
I CAN NOT figure out how to use a fucking HW insert in PT. Just can't figure it out. Apollo, right? Wasn’t there a thread of yours awhile back with a similar issue? There’s something you have to check in the UAD software because the i/o doesn’t match. It’s not a 1:1, which PT’s needs to see.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 25, 2021 16:47:57 GMT -6
You have to offset the inserts in the pt down settings .
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2021 17:32:48 GMT -6
I CAN NOT figure out how to use a fucking HW insert in PT. Just can't figure it out. Apollo, right? Wasn’t there a thread of yours awhile back with a similar issue? There’s something you have to check in the UAD software because the i/o doesn’t match. It’s not a 1:1, which PT’s needs to see. Yeah - I have - and I need to look for that thread...I can get the it to pass through and I can hear it - and it’s fine. But then when I add plugs, it adds delay.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 25, 2021 18:31:12 GMT -6
Here is something Gannon wrote at UA forum a few year’s ago:
Hi all,
There are actually two things to be aware of when using hardware inserts with Pro Tools and third party interfaces such as Apollo.
First - you do need to make sure your inserts are lined up. With Apollo, you need to go to I/O Setups in Pro Tools, select the inserts tab and drag the entire set over one pair so that Insert 1-2 is using I/O 3-4, Insert 3-4 is using I/O 5-6 etc. Apollo's MON out uses output pair 1-2, so you have to make this adjustment to line up your hardware inserts. (PT mode only aligns the Inputs and Outputs list, not Inserts.)
Second - you have to manage Delay Compensation in Pro Tools on a track by track basis - not just turn it on and off globally. It's easiest to describe it with an example, so try this:
1) Create three stereo audio tracks. 2) Set the output of Audio 1 to Bus 1-2 3) Set the Input of Audio 2 to Bus 1-2 and Input enable it 4) Create a Stereo Send on Audio 1, send it to Bus 3-4 and set it to unity gain 5) Set the Input of Audio 3 to Bus 3-4 and Input enable it 6) Insert a hardware pair on Audio 3 (you can use a patch cable between outputs and inputs to pass audio)
Now, look at the Delay Compensation numbers in the Mix Window. You'll see Audio 1 and Audio 2 are all 0 and Audio 3 shows 2351 in the top slot (Delay Indicator).
Drop a piece of audio onto Audio 1 and play it. You'll hear a delay between the two tracks. This is because Audio 2 is not being delayed to match the hardware insert on Audio 3.
Now, Control + Command Click on the bottom number of Audio 2 (Track Compensation Indicator). You'll notice it turns blue and goes to 2351 (the same number as Audio 3).
What you've done is isolated Audio 2 from the delay comp scheme so that Audio 2, which has no hardware inserts on it, has the same amount of delay compensation as Audio 3, which does.
This is a bare bones example, but you can use the same principles as your routing schemes become more complex with busses and other audio tracks.
Just keep in mind where your delays are and which elements need to be delayed and go from there.
I hope that helps!
-GK Gannon Kashiwa”
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2021 19:52:15 GMT -6
Here is something Gannon wrote at UA forum a few year’s ago: Hi all, There are actually two things to be aware of when using hardware inserts with Pro Tools and third party interfaces such as Apollo. First - you do need to make sure your inserts are lined up. With Apollo, you need to go to I/O Setups in Pro Tools, select the inserts tab and drag the entire set over one pair so that Insert 1-2 is using I/O 3-4, Insert 3-4 is using I/O 5-6 etc. Apollo's MON out uses output pair 1-2, so you have to make this adjustment to line up your hardware inserts. (PT mode only aligns the Inputs and Outputs list, not Inserts.) Second - you have to manage Delay Compensation in Pro Tools on a track by track basis - not just turn it on and off globally. It's easiest to describe it with an example, so try this: 1) Create three stereo audio tracks. 2) Set the output of Audio 1 to Bus 1-2 3) Set the Input of Audio 2 to Bus 1-2 and Input enable it 4) Create a Stereo Send on Audio 1, send it to Bus 3-4 and set it to unity gain 5) Set the Input of Audio 3 to Bus 3-4 and Input enable it 6) Insert a hardware pair on Audio 3 (you can use a patch cable between outputs and inputs to pass audio) Now, look at the Delay Compensation numbers in the Mix Window. You'll see Audio 1 and Audio 2 are all 0 and Audio 3 shows 2351 in the top slot (Delay Indicator). Drop a piece of audio onto Audio 1 and play it. You'll hear a delay between the two tracks. This is because Audio 2 is not being delayed to match the hardware insert on Audio 3. Now, Control + Command Click on the bottom number of Audio 2 (Track Compensation Indicator). You'll notice it turns blue and goes to 2351 (the same number as Audio 3). What you've done is isolated Audio 2 from the delay comp scheme so that Audio 2, which has no hardware inserts on it, has the same amount of delay compensation as Audio 3, which does. This is a bare bones example, but you can use the same principles as your routing schemes become more complex with busses and other audio tracks. Just keep in mind where your delays are and which elements need to be delayed and go from there. I hope that helps! -GK Gannon Kashiwa” That’s very helpful! Thanks!
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