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Post by yotonic on Dec 1, 2020 23:29:07 GMT -6
So much time and money is put into gear, it's an entire industry. And yet a great song reigns supreme over any recording format. When I come across a great song from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, I NEVER notice production. (Maybe because it's great?) You know you have a hit when the song is great "unplugged", with ADAT production, whatever.
I wish there was a way to sell musicians magic dust that helped them write great songs that don't need "production". It's the great intangible.
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Post by lpedrum on Dec 2, 2020 0:12:09 GMT -6
So much time and money is put into gear, it's an entire industry. And yet a great song reigns supreme over any recording format. When I come across a great song from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, I NEVER notice production. (Maybe because it's great?) You know you have a hit when the song is great "unplugged", with ADAT production, whatever. I wish there was a way to sell musicians magic dust that helped them write great songs that don't need "production". It's the great intangible. Sure, a great song is a great song. But done right technology creates a beautiful marriage with music. If there was no merit to gear and production we'd all still be recording to wax cylinders and singing into megaphones like Rudy Vallee. |
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Post by yotonic on Dec 2, 2020 0:33:10 GMT -6
I'm here because I am insufferable gear & production addict  I just often wonder if we have seen the same advances on the other side of the equation, that we have witnessed behind the desk over the past 20 years. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 2, 2020 11:44:55 GMT -6
OK yesterday I dropped an EV RE15 off with the guy at the coffee shop who is using a Steinberg interface with an IPad and Garage band. Accomplished touring player has done some studio stuff was using a MXL FET. Told him to move it around find the sweet spot.
Today I’m a frickin god. It’s the mics and the basics first.
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Post by plinker on Dec 2, 2020 12:14:03 GMT -6
OK yesterday I dropped an EV RE15 off with the guy at the coffee shop who is using a Steinberg interface with an IPad and Garage band. Accomplished touring player has done some studio stuff was using a MXL FET. Told him to move it around find the sweet spot. Today I’m a frickin god. It’s the mics and the basics first. Those old RE 10/11/15/16 mics are such workhorses -- makes me wonder how the 57 ever became so popular. They do require a good amount of gain, though. I assume the Steinberg goes to 11? |
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Post by donr on Dec 3, 2020 12:38:09 GMT -6
Some of the worst home recordings I’ve heard are from professional musicians. It’s a different skill set and they have to start at zero like everybody else. I’ve heard ridiculous stuff like phone recordings, insane clipping, and monitoring through a tv because their headphones broke. In the first years of digital, I would slam everything right up to and over digital 0, not knowing any better about metering the digital realm. I hadn't done any pro recordings with digital gear at that point, so I'd never seen a pro AE use digital stuff. |
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Post by lpedrum on Dec 3, 2020 13:08:24 GMT -6
OK yesterday I dropped an EV RE15 off with the guy at the coffee shop who is using a Steinberg interface with an IPad and Garage band. Accomplished touring player has done some studio stuff was using a MXL FET. Told him to move it around find the sweet spot. Today I’m a frickin god. It’s the mics and the basics first. Totally agree—mics first. And with dynamic mics specifically you can have options without breaking the bank. But my original question was, to rephrase it, what comes next (if anything) before a home recordist takes the leap into four figures to upgrade the converter and pres. |
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 3, 2020 13:32:35 GMT -6
A Warm Audio TB-12 preamp. Great sounds and a lot to learn. They can experiment with two different opamps, two transformers (or transformerless) and variable impedance.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 13:53:41 GMT -6
Some of the worst home recordings I’ve heard are from professional musicians. It’s a different skill set and they have to start at zero like everybody else. I’ve heard ridiculous stuff like phone recordings, insane clipping, and monitoring through a tv because their headphones broke. In the first years of digital, I would slam everything right up to and over digital 0, not knowing any better about metering the digital realm. I hadn't done any pro recordings with digital gear at that point, so I'd never seen a pro AE use digital stuff. I did that too coming from crappy mixers and digital consoles. Many had no red lights or meters. Crunch city. Then when I started using analog-style plugins, I didn’t realize you could clip them either. I definitely have stuff out there with insane overs. Almost all the production tutorials on YouTube have overs from not trimming everything and turning up the monitors to compensate and musicians copy them now, not realizing that if they were working, they wouldn’t be making 4 hour YouTube videos. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 3, 2020 15:39:10 GMT -6
An engineer should be able to make it work even if they use $100 condensers and $299 interfaces. Run it through gear, mult it, plug-ins etc. They aren’t going to sound like the studio, at least not during tracking. I know people who refused to take my advice and record in a studio and instead went cheap: $30k buildout later it still sounds like a home studio. Decided walls and decor were more important than mics, treatment, gear. It’s expensive to sound expensive! (Edit: I guess U87 would probably sound good though a focusrite. 414 XLS as well. Still not exactly studio level w/ pre’s etc.) Er, no.
Granted, it is possible to get sometimes get great results on some artists with some cheap dynamic mics. I would generally say that the task becomes infinitely harder with cheap condensers, although there may be a few exceptions, but still....
Generally speaking, you'll do a lot better with an inexpensive dynamic than an cheap condenser.
You CAN'T "mix out" problems introduced by a bad input transducer. Anything you do to "correct" a problem will introduce another problem, often one that's worse.
The interface is another issue that needs to be approached separately. Not being able to go directly into the the interface (bypassing the preamp) can be a problem, but not as bad as a crap input transducer.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 3, 2020 15:48:12 GMT -6
OK yesterday I dropped an EV RE15 off with the guy at the coffee shop who is using a Steinberg interface with an IPad and Garage band. Accomplished touring player has done some studio stuff was using a MXL FET. Told him to move it around find the sweet spot. Today I’m a frickin god. It’s the mics and the basics first. Those old RE 10/11/15/16 mics are such workhorses -- makes me wonder how the 57 ever became so popular. They do require a good amount of gain, though. I assume the Steinberg goes to 11? Marketing. Shure had much better marketing to music shops. Meanwhile EV was concentrating on professional installers and similar markerts.
Also the 545/SM57 was a lot better looking than the EV 664.
The other factor is that when EV came out witjh the RE series mics they were Variable-D, with no proximity boost. A lot of rock vocalists love their proximity boost, especially live. OTOH, if you watch videos of old TV shows you'll see mostly EV.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 3, 2020 16:04:04 GMT -6
Those old RE 10/11/15/16 mics are such workhorses -- makes me wonder how the 57 ever became so popular. They do require a good amount of gain, though. I assume the Steinberg goes to 11? Marketing. Shure had much better marketing to music shops. Meanwhile EV was concentrating on professional installers and similar markerts.
Also the 545/SM57 was a lot better looking than the EV 664.
The other factor is that when EV came out witjh the RE series mics they were Variable-D, with no proximity boost. A lot of rock vocalists love their proximity boost, especially live. OTOH, if you watch videos of old TV shows you'll see mostly EV.
Let me add a couple of points. The whole EV RE/ PL duplicate mics for different markets just confused people, so many myths that RE or PL was better. The Shures being cardiod makes for an easier sell to guys just starting out live, just put the wedge in front of it and EQ . EV had better versions of the 58 over the years but they always seamed to get discontinued just as they got traction. Shure is still owned by the family EV has been bought and sold and reimagined to many times. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 3, 2020 16:11:42 GMT -6
Marketing. Shure had much better marketing to music shops. Meanwhile EV was concentrating on professional installers and similar markerts.
Also the 545/SM57 was a lot better looking than the EV 664.
The other factor is that when EV came out witjh the RE series mics they were Variable-D, with no proximity boost. A lot of rock vocalists love their proximity boost, especially live. OTOH, if you watch videos of old TV shows you'll see mostly EV.
Let me add a couple of points. The whole EV RE/ PL duplicate mics for different markets just confused people, so many myths that RE or PL was better. The Shures being cardiod makes for an easier sell to guys just starting out live, just put the wedge in front of it and EQ . EV had better versions of the 58 over the years but they always seamed to get discontinued just as they got traction. Shure is still owned by the family EV has been bought and sold and reimagined to many times. Well, to be fair, EV was doing cardiod vocal mics with the 664, then later all the Re10/11/15/16/20 mics were cardios as well - but were variable D. Great for broadcast. Not so great for inexperienced singers at clubs. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 3, 2020 16:37:57 GMT -6
Let me add a couple of points. The whole EV RE/ PL duplicate mics for different markets just confused people, so many myths that RE or PL was better. The Shures being cardiod makes for an easier sell to guys just starting out live, just put the wedge in front of it and EQ . EV had better versions of the 58 over the years but they always seamed to get discontinued just as they got traction. Shure is still owned by the family EV has been bought and sold and reimagined to many times. Well, to be fair, EV was doing cardiod vocal mics with the 664, then later all the Re10/11/15/16/20 mics were cardios as well - but were variable D. Great for broadcast. Not so great for inexperienced singers at clubs. Only the 10 & 20 were cardiod the rest were hyper or super cardiod. I even double checked. Also the vents on the shanks of the variable-D mics scared people who wanted to hand hold. All these factors and Shures incentives just made 58s & 57s an easier sale. |
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Post by plinker on Dec 3, 2020 16:57:04 GMT -6
Those old RE 10/11/15/16 mics are such workhorses -- makes me wonder how the 57 ever became so popular. They do require a good amount of gain, though. I assume the Steinberg goes to 11? The other factor is that when EV came out witjh the RE series mics they were Variable-D, with no proximity boost. A lot of rock vocalists love their proximity boost, especially live. OTOH, if you watch videos of old TV shows you'll see mostly EV. Yep -- I love the old Hee-Haw, Lawrence Welk, and other variety shows. EV everywhere -- And ACTUAL LIVE PERFORMANCES (usually) !
I brought my RE11 to a gig several years back and the sound-person said, "That's not a good mic. It needs too much gain." I said, "It's an excellent mic, but doesn't have proximity effect, so please crank the gain and turn the low-end up some.". I still don't think he has any idea what any of my words meant.  |
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Post by chessparov on Dec 3, 2020 17:15:40 GMT -6
Excellent thread and thoughts. FWIW the cheapest condenser, that sounds quite good to me, is the AKG P120 (black). $100 or less new.
3U's CM-1's and the SE X1's sound good too. All three makes capable, of making Pro level recordings...
Chris
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Post by christopher on Dec 3, 2020 17:23:26 GMT -6
I dunno why I didn’t say the missing ingredient is an experienced engineer to help. I always thought dynamics were fool proof until now, I’m getting sent tracks where they are blowing out the capsule with their breath. And saying it’s the best tone they've always wanted. I really don’t know what to say
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Post by lpedrum on Dec 3, 2020 18:36:34 GMT -6
I dunno why I didn’t say the missing ingredient is an experienced engineer to help. Yes, at first. But I tell my professional friends to focus solely on recording their instrument well and not be intimidated by the thought of mastering audio engineering in all its intricacies and glory. Sure, if it evolves into a full fledged love of engineering that’s great. But there’s nothing wrong with simply knowing how to record yourself. |
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Post by christopher on Dec 4, 2020 11:47:49 GMT -6
That’s cool, not trying to be a gear snob or anything if they aren’t able to upgrade the chain, they need to find a way to work with what they have. That’s where experience comes in.. knowing the general freq plots and off axis response of the mics, problem areas in rooms to avoid, how to make a DIY pop filter or vocal booth real quick, how to determine what monitoring mix level for the performance you are trying to capture, that kind of thing. Sometimes dumb luck prevails: If 3 million folks use a USB mic, at least one person in a certain room will make it sound incredible. It’s fine when that stuff happens, no experience needed. I wish it was always that easy. One useful free tip would tell them to record with 2 mics on a stereo track. Use dynamic mic up close, condensor a foot or more away. That way at least there’s a backup |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 4, 2020 13:03:42 GMT -6
In some ways I'm jealous of the people starting out now. When I started going in the early 2000s the budget interfaces, mics, and plugins were not nearly as good as they are now in 2020 on average. And instead of 2 or 3 things now there are 20 different options for any one thing. It's a good time to get into it.
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Post by gwlee7 on Dec 4, 2020 22:17:20 GMT -6
In some ways I'm jealous of the people starting out now. When I started going in the early 2000s the budget interfaces, mics, and plugins were not nearly as good as they are now in 2020 on average. And instead of 2 or 3 things now there are 20 different options for any one thing. It's a good time to get into it. This is a great point. But as someone who has sorta started out (again) recently, having a lot of options for any one thing means that a person can spend a whole lot of money getting “almost good” gear that after a good listen and some experience, isn’t really “good enough”. Way back when, crap was crap and good was good but now there is a ton of mid tier stuff that ends up being kinda “meh” once you realize that the average sound you are getting is as good as it gets. I have spent some coin on some kinda meh stuff but that’s ultimately my own fault. |
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I just often wonder if we have seen the same advances on the other side of the equation, that we have witnessed behind the desk over the past 20 years.
