|
Post by kcatthedog on Nov 16, 2020 6:03:25 GMT -6
saweet!
|
|
|
Post by avgatzeblouz on Nov 16, 2020 8:18:49 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing. I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure. This is mandatory, very good for you. I personnaly use 25s at a studio several times a week, and the mids are absolutely the most precise I ever heard. But honestly, that's about it for me. The bottom end is too slow, top end too soft. Very nice to balance stuff, but I can't get the eq as great as I want when mixing on those on the whole spectrum. I tried them at my place several times, and they sounded horrible. My room is ok, some nice treatment, but not killer. Which leads me to the conclusion that they are very room dependant. I tried the 20s mkII as well at my place and they sounded very good. Not enough bottom, as everyone said. I had then a pair of Spiral Groove, and they sounded as nice and presented themselves as an equivalent quality tool as the 20s, but without the need of a sub.
To summarize, I'm not trying to sell you to Spiral Groove (I'm now on Focals Trio6 Be), but in my experience, the 20s have been a much better mixing tool than the 25s. Good luck !
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Nov 16, 2020 8:32:20 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing. I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure. This is mandatory, very good for you. I personnaly use 25s at a studio several times a week, and the mids are absolutely the most precise I ever heard. But honestly, that's about it for me. The bottom end is too slow, top end too soft. Very nice to balance stuff, but I can't get the eq as great as I want when mixing on those on the whole spectrum. I tried them at my place several times, and they sounded horrible. My room is ok, some nice treatment, but not killer. Which leads me to the conclusion that they are very room dependant. I tried the 20s mkII as well at my place and they sounded very good. Not enough bottom, as everyone said. I had then a pair of Spiral Groove, and they sounded as nice and presented themselves as an equivalent quality tool as the 20s, but without the need of a sub.
To summarize, I'm not trying to sell you to Spiral Groove (I'm now on Focals Trio6 Be), but in my experience, the 20s have been a much better mixing tool than the 25s. Good luck !
Thanks for that feedback and alternative options, I'm taking everything onboard everyone says and dismissing nothing.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Nov 16, 2020 8:42:37 GMT -6
My room is 3.2m by 4.5m and has a decent amount of treatment designed for my room by GIK. conversion: 10'6" by 14' 9" (Not all of us can visualize the size of a room in meters, present company included, the same is true in return I'm sure)
|
|
|
Post by svart on Nov 16, 2020 8:52:23 GMT -6
About the original issue with the amp failure.. it's probably the power supply. If a tech could pinpoint a specific failed component and replace, it probably wouldn't need recalibration.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Nov 16, 2020 9:17:51 GMT -6
About the original issue with the amp failure.. it's probably the power supply. If a tech could pinpoint a specific failed component and replace, it probably wouldn't need recalibration. Unfortunately it's more than that :-( All started because I was getting loud clicks and "ooomp" sounds when changing mute or channel on the Avocet - my right 300 was perfect on all channels of the Avocet so pointing towards an internal 0300 issue. The 0 ohm strap down resistor between XLR input and ground (probably to block DC) was burnt out, at first we suspected my Avocet might be fault (though all my other speakers are OK using the Avocet on all combinations possible) but on testing the Avocet outputs (and inputs) there was only 7mv present between pin 2 - 3 and pin 1 which my tech said is acceptable as the Avocet probably isn't capacitor coupled on the outs being audiophile so to speak (though I will check with Crane Song) My tech guy said definitely not enough to damage the 0 ohm resistor - he suspected an internal 0300 fault. In absence of a schematic, I instructed him to replace the tiny SMD 0 ohm resistor then when turning on the 0300 (we kept it open) there was a pop and a poof of black smoke from one of the amp transistors and capacitors ..... clearly a significant failure - possibly related to the clicks and pops, possibly related to the burnt out 0 ohm strap down resistor ..... who knows - frankly looking internally I didn't feel the amps looked very robustly built !! Sennheiser suggested the skip for the monitor .... nice! I've moved on now, I'm not worried as I have great service from my 0300's for 12 years and the money was spent a very long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by avgatzeblouz on Nov 16, 2020 9:33:35 GMT -6
I've moved on now, I'm not worried as I have great service from my 0300's for 12 years and the money was spent a very long time ago. You're a wiser man than me ! Sennheiser refusing to service them would make me mad as hell !
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Nov 16, 2020 19:47:21 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing. I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure. Somebody is setting the hook😁 do remember 25’s are pretty big for Near fields so remember the expense of good stands.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
|
Post by ericn on Nov 16, 2020 20:00:19 GMT -6
Interesting points on integrating a sub, probably something I need to consider if I went that route. Some find the low distortion of the ATC’s enough that you don’t need subs, others find it impossible to mate a sub with ATC’s others love the combo. If you try to use Active ATC’s with a sub, Y out to each ATC and the sub and use the high pass on the ATC’s rather use the cross in the sub for the high pass and the cross in the sub for the low pass. Use a simple cell phone RTA for x-0ver point and level match. Of course I’m trying to get a Certain designer to build a simple box with a high quality high pass with a handful of frequencies for this as well😁
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Nov 17, 2020 3:00:17 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing. I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure. Somebody is setting the hook😁 do remember 25’s are pretty big for Near fields so remember the expense of good stands. I aldready have some Towersonic TS1 - they are seriously strong and sturdy, no worries with a pair of 25's. Looking at your next post, I think I'm put off 20's and a sub the need for splitter boxes and messing with integration in my smallish room is a red light for potential frustration (I know what I'm like - I just want to get on with the music) so that's a positive towards getting the 25's.
|
|
|
Post by mythundreamt on Nov 20, 2020 11:32:58 GMT -6
Another datapoint for you. I very regularly hear 25s, somewhat regularly 50s and 150s, and sometimes 300s, depending on which studio around me I happen to be in. More importantly I went from passive 20s to Barefoot 35s to (just now) ATC 25s in my own home studio, over three years. I've sadly never heard the active 20s, but allegedly they are just like the 20s with better resolution. To me, each change felt like a move up. The 20s were bass shy and quite dry/neutral. Great mix reference monitors, but uninspiring and detached at the same time, not much fun for music making. Would probably be cool with a sub I guess. The BF mm35s were SO much fun, deep bass that made you want to dance, wonderful imaging with holographic phantom center, and yet perfect translation without much effort. Very in your face sound that let you miss nothing. Three-way is superior to 2-way, no surprise there. The ATC 25s I just set up in my home studio. I'm very familiar with them already because of a studio I spend time at, but this is the first time I am hearing them in my familiar space that I heard the 20s and 35s in. They are a little bit of each of those monitors, but better in every way except Barefoot's bass. Much bigger soundstage than the Barefoots (made them feel narrow and constrained in retrospect), enough bass to mix but not to air drum like a fool (a switchable sub would be nice to have I guess), lovely highs that are like a soft throw on a relaxing couch. but most importantly a sense of imaging and space that turned every good record into a live studio concert. I like 25s Never really had a problem with translation on 25s so far, don't expect any different at home. The Barefoots were probably the easiest to mix on though, of the three. The only better I have heard in this vein are the 45s, because they bring the bass and I guess the superior tweeter. Not hugely impressed by 50s or 150s for the size and price increase, but wall mounted 300s are obviously a different level and sound like a dream. Still, all definitely in the same family of sound.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Nov 21, 2020 11:32:57 GMT -6
Another datapoint for you. I very regularly hear 25s, somewhat regularly 50s and 150s, and sometimes 300s, depending on which studio around me I happen to be in. More importantly I went from passive 20s to Barefoot 35s to (just now) ATC 25s in my own home studio, over three years. I've sadly never heard the active 20s, but allegedly they are just like the 20s with better resolution. To me, each change felt like a move up. The 20s were bass shy and quite dry/neutral. Great mix reference monitors, but uninspiring and detached at the same time, not much fun for music making. Would probably be cool with a sub I guess. The BF mm35s were SO much fun, deep bass that made you want to dance, wonderful imaging with holographic phantom center, and yet perfect translation without much effort. Very in your face sound that let you miss nothing. Three-way is superior to 2-way, no surprise there. The ATC 25s I just set up in my home studio. I'm very familiar with them already because of a studio I spend time at, but this is the first time I am hearing them in my familiar space that I heard the 20s and 35s in. They are a little bit of each of those monitors, but better in every way except Barefoot's bass. Much bigger soundstage than the Barefoots (made them feel narrow and constrained in retrospect), enough bass to mix but not to air drum like a fool (a switchable sub would be nice to have I guess), lovely highs that are like a soft throw on a relaxing couch. but most importantly a sense of imaging and space that turned every good record into a live studio concert. I like 25s Never really had a problem with translation on 25s so far, don't expect any different at home. The Barefoots were probably the easiest to mix on though, of the three. The only better I have heard in this vein are the 45s, because they bring the bass and I guess the superior tweeter. Not hugely impressed by 50s or 150s for the size and price increase, but wall mounted 300s are obviously a different level and sound like a dream. Still, all definitely in the same family of sound. Thanks for that post - great stuff - much appreciated. I'm not interested in the Barefoots - not my kinda thing, I don't want DSP based monitors. I'm pretty much set on getting the ATC 25's - like 99% there. I had a look at the dimensions of the ATC 45's and there's just no way they're going to work in my loft studio - they're frikkin 2ft wide each - they'd look huge and I'd feel intimidated with 4ft of monitors pointing at me from 65" triangle as I have my set-up - so no to the 45's! Really to replace my 0300 with a genuine step up using traditional technology there's pretty much only the ATC 25's I'm interested in so at this point I feel strongly it's the way I'm going to go. I mean really, I don't feel I can go wrong, if I can't track and mix on them .... then the problem will be me, such is the ATC reputation.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Nov 21, 2020 13:46:39 GMT -6
I had never heard atc before, only heard about them. In retrospect, thought the 25: like the perfect touch point for someone in a smaller studio and that sound: guess I’m just an atc guy.
I read up on all the in house design work afterwards: bottom line : they are very very good, not cheap but worth the investment.
|
|
deif
Junior Member
Posts: 60
|
Post by deif on Dec 5, 2020 19:33:24 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing. I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure. Hi, Did you ever get the demo pair? I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Dec 15, 2020 7:03:41 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing. I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure. Hi, Did you ever get the demo pair? I’m curious to hear your thoughts. Hey Delf, I decided against a demo pair as they weight 30KG and getting them on and off my stands was going to be a PITA. My dealer offered me an amazing price on a new pair so I just went for it and bought them, knowing I could return them if I wanted. I've been blown away with them and decided to keep them, the mid-range is truly amazing. It's like I have X-Ray vision into the mix, I was listening to a Steely Dan track and I thought I could tell which brand of sticks the drummer was using LOL!! I'm also amazed at the bass, I thought they might be light on the bass, but the bass is very full in my room and so tight and articulate. The frightening thing has been listening to old mixes that I thought were perfect on my K&H 0300's suddenly I can hear resonances in the vocals in the low mids I'd missed and harsh bits of guitar that sounded perfectly smooth on the 0300's. The ATC's are just brutal, your mix is either perfect or it fails to sound great. Passing the ATC test if tough - even some well known commercial mixes fail the ATC test!! Those Steely Dan records sound just brilliant of the ATC's - OMG those albums are so well recorded - that's my new gold standard - "Hey Nineteen" if I can get my tracking and mix that perfect I'll be well happy - though I do a somewhat different music style wise of course. Best decision, best tool I've ever owned towards raising the standards of my productions.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 15, 2020 14:30:50 GMT -6
oh, gee thx, just what my bank account didn’t want me to know ! Super pleased for you, I had to tear myself away from the pair I demoed at studio economic. If there was a guy outside offering cash for kidneys, I’d probably have a pair( of atc’s:,single kidney!)
|
|
|
Post by tim on Jan 21, 2021 9:08:34 GMT -6
I went with the 20's after demoing the 25's and some barefoots. All are great but it was the low distortion driver and ATC's tweeter on the 20's that did it for me. I did ultimately pair them with two subs.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Jan 21, 2021 10:25:50 GMT -6
I went with the 20's after demoing the 25's and some barefoots. All are great but it was the low distortion driver and ATC's tweeter on the 20's that did it for me. I did ultimately pair them with two subs. Which subs? How did the integration go?
|
|
|
Post by tim on Jan 21, 2021 12:58:37 GMT -6
I went with the 20's after demoing the 25's and some barefoots. All are great but it was the low distortion driver and ATC's tweeter on the 20's that did it for me. I did ultimately pair them with two subs. Which subs? How did the integration go? HSU Research ULS-15. I have two in each corner behind the ATC's. It's a home setup in my basement so far from ideal. Using the subs to fill in an ugly void around 100Hz or so and give me the low end extension. I picked up an external DSP but have yet to integrate it.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Jan 21, 2021 15:24:57 GMT -6
Which subs? How did the integration go? HSU Research ULS-15. I have two in each corner behind the ATC's. It's a home setup in my basement so far from ideal. Using the subs to fill in an ugly void around 100Hz or so and give me the low end extension. I picked up an external DSP but have yet to integrate it. Awesome! Thanks for filling us in with more detail. And in case no one's said it yet, welcome to RGO! Nice to meet you, Tim.
|
|
|
Post by tim on Jan 21, 2021 15:28:15 GMT -6
HSU Research ULS-15. I have two in each corner behind the ATC's. It's a home setup in my basement so far from ideal. Using the subs to fill in an ugly void around 100Hz or so and give me the low end extension. I picked up an external DSP but have yet to integrate it. Awesome! Thanks for filling us in with more detail. And in case no one's said it yet, welcome to RGO! Nice to meet you, Tim. Hey, thanks!
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2021 16:12:23 GMT -6
Hey Tim, missed that too: welcome, first round is on the newbie !
|
|
|
Post by tim on Jan 21, 2021 20:08:26 GMT -6
Hey Tim, missed that too: welcome, first round is on the newbie ! Ha ha, thanks! yeah sure once this covid nonsense is over!
|
|