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Post by thehightenor on Nov 14, 2020 12:40:38 GMT -6
Hi guys,
Sadly my left K&H 0300 amp has blown and Sennheiser UK no longer off support for 0300's they cannot be repaired as they would need re-calibrating
and only Sennheiser can do that and they have absolutely refused to support this discontinued monitor - so that's a pair of otherwise mint condition monitors
heading for the recyle skip (or sold for spares) though there's no point in selling for spares as any repairs need re-calibration which isn't going to happen.
Not very environmentally sound, imho these speakers should be repaired by Sennhieser!
Therefore I'm not buying Neumann 0310's, Sennhieser aren't getting another penny of my hard earned money.
In stark contrast I have friends who've had ATC monitors from the 70's repaired by ATC - that's the kinda support I'm looking for when buying high end boutique
pro audio, ATC use full sized discreet components in their amps (the 0300 is mainly SMD) and make their own drivers so hopefully there's a solid path to a long service life.
I'm now stuck between ATC SCM 25's or ATC SCM 20's MK2
I know the 25's seem the obvious choice as a replacement for the 0300's but I've read the comment where people have favoured the 20's MK2 over the 25's
due to the 20's using the SL bass driver and having the latest ATC tweeter.
My only worry about the 20's is they will be too bass light and also the 20's don't have the fabled ATC mid-driver which I understand is a BIG part of the ATC sound!
My music style is kinda Sting/Gabriel/Beatles type AOR and my room is a well treated space 3..3m x 4.5m
I'd appreciate any insights anyone has into these two ATC models.
Tah
tht
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 14, 2020 12:52:32 GMT -6
I think Johnkenn had the 20’s for awhile and did find them bass light.
I demoed the active 25’s a few year’s and considered giving them a kidney on the spot : loved them.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 14, 2020 12:55:09 GMT -6
I think Johnkenn had the 20’s for awhile and did find them bass light. I demoed the active 25’s a few year’s and considered giving them a kidney on the spot : loved them. LOL .... great that's the kind of feedback I need to hear :-) 25's = 10/10 |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 14, 2020 13:16:50 GMT -6
I was in a professionally designed mixing room, comparing pmc’s, those Austrian monitors and the atc: the once bass was a little woolly, the Austrian speakers sounded kind of lifeless, but the atc were so engaging, film and also balanced, lots of power with the atc amps too. I still remember the snare sound, I used to be a drummer and I thought this sounds just like my Rogers !  |
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Post by nudwig on Nov 14, 2020 14:12:44 GMT -6
I have a pair of the ATC 20 MK2's. I've only heard the 25's at VK, haven't worked on them. At first I did think they were a touch bass light compared to the One18's (and especially the Barefoot 35's) I had at the time. The specs might also verify they don't go as low but I think it's more the lack of distortion and speed that makes it feel that way as they translate extremely well, the lack of distortion is also noticeable as I've found myself listening louder than I realize and only when someone tries to talk do I realize it. After a year I added a Subwoofer Pros 12", they make a good combo.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 14, 2020 14:45:06 GMT -6
I have a pair of the ATC 20 MK2's. I've only heard the 25's at VK, haven't worked on them. At first I did think they were a touch bass light compared to the One18's (and especially the Barefoot 35's) I had at the time. The specs might also verify they don't go as low but I think it's more the lack of distortion and speed that makes it feel that way as they translate extremely well, the lack of distortion is also noticeable as I've found myself listening louder than I realize and only when someone tries to talk do I realize it. After a year I added a Subwoofer Pros 12", they make a good combo. ATC SCM20ASL Pro MKII & SCM0.1-12 Bundle - looks to be a great combo though 25% more expensive than a pair of 25's, though I like the way you spread the purchases out and got the sub a year later - that could work for me. My only slight concern is not having the famous ATC mid driver. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919 
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Post by ericn on Nov 14, 2020 14:53:08 GMT -6
This is one of those situations where you really need to listen for your self. The slightly different voiceing and LF are all a matter of personal taste. Also remember the 25 uses a mid with aless powerful motor than the larger ATCs.
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Post by nudwig on Nov 14, 2020 17:25:02 GMT -6
I agree with Eric, you'd need to try them yourself as both are awesome so it'd be down to your personal taste. If it helps, when I got to mastering where he has ATC 110's I don't feel there's a massive tonality switch. Obviously they go louder and he has a much better room but I definitely don't feel lost or confused, definitely a closer 'family' sound than when I compare on D&D 8c's.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 14, 2020 18:43:17 GMT -6
As soon as our lockdown ends I'm going to book some time at my dealers showroom where he has 20's 25's and 0310's to compare to.
I know the sound of my old 0300's and what I'd like to improve on with my next monitors.
The 25's seem to fit the bill as it has the mid-driver but I'm staying open minded.
Thanks for the feedback I appreciate it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 14, 2020 19:44:24 GMT -6
Don’t say I didn’t warn you ! |
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Post by m03 on Nov 14, 2020 21:42:08 GMT -6
they cannot be repaired as they would need re-calibrating and only Sennheiser can do that
Dumb question, but is having a 3rd party repair shop service and calibrate/match the amplifiers not an available (and potentially cheaper) option? |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 15, 2020 4:29:45 GMT -6
Don’t say I didn’t warn you ! Duly noted I have a feeling as soon as I hear the 25's I'll want a pair. I have to get something I've currently got no accurate monitoring. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 15, 2020 4:38:15 GMT -6
they cannot be repaired as they would need re-calibrating and only Sennheiser can do that
Dumb question, but is having a 3rd party repair shop service and calibrate/match the amplifiers not an available (and potentially cheaper) option? My dearest and oldest friend is a very competent tech, he's had a look and said as the board in basically populated with tiny SMD (aside the power amp transistors) he would need the schematic to attempt a repair as the unit has a fault on the pre and the amp boards. Sennheiser refuse to release the schematics and he even knows someone at Sennheiser but still they refuse even though the speaker is discontinued. Senny told me the best course of action is to throw the 0300's away and buy some new Neumann 0310's !! - yeah right sure, I'm going to give you another £3K. Not. The 0300's are calibrated in Germany in an anechoic chamber with specific K&H test equipment only Senny know the reference these speakers should be at. When my 0300's were only 18 months old my right mid driver failed (I've not found my 0300's to be very reliable in truth) and Sennheiser took 3 weeks to repair the mid-driver as the unit had to be sent back to Germany for re-calibration. It is what it is. Thus my interest in buying into the ATC family - as a small boutique independent company ATC have a completely different attitude to support. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 15, 2020 6:43:58 GMT -6
Bring either your best mix or one you are struggling with and hear what the atc 25 reveal or consider what you would mix differently?
Might be interesting to pull the boards and send them to Jim Williams just to see if the bom could be reverse engineered, seems a shame to put those monitors on the scrap heap ?
If the speakers and we are ok could they be run as passive monitors?
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 15, 2020 8:40:22 GMT -6
Bring either your best mix or one you are struggling with and hear what the atc 25 reveal or consider what you would mix differently? Might be interesting to pull the boards and send them to Jim Williams just to see if the bom could be reverse engineered, seems a shame to put those monitors on the scrap heap ? If the speakers and we are ok could they be run as passive monitors? I've had them 12 years, I'm not spending any money on the left speaker incase the right follows suit!! I'll look for a left on eBay/Gumtree etc in case someone else has had the reverse problem. If not I'll sell my right and the left as driver spares. I've moved on in my mind and at this point I think I'm going to spring for a pair of ATC 25's |
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Post by dror520 on Nov 15, 2020 9:37:32 GMT -6
I have the 20s in my studio and used the 25s many times in other studios. I also used the 110 a few times and to me the 20s sound closer to it, but of-course with less low-end. For that reason I use a pair of subwoofers with the 20s. Hope that helps |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 15, 2020 14:20:22 GMT -6
I have the 20s in my studio and used the 25s many times in other studios. I also used the 110 a few times and to me the 20s sound closer to it, but of-course with less low-end. For that reason I use a pair of subwoofers with the 20s. Hope that helps What subwoofers do you use? Are you saying you prefer 20's and subs rather than 25's? Do you not miss the "famous" ATC mid-driver on the 25's ..... I keep reading reviews that seem to say the mid-driver is a big part of the ATC sound? |
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Post by dror520 on Nov 15, 2020 15:15:33 GMT -6
I have the 20s in my studio and used the 25s many times in other studios. I also used the 110 a few times and to me the 20s sound closer to it, but of-course with less low-end. For that reason I use a pair of subwoofers with the 20s. Hope that helps What subwoofers do you use? Are you saying you prefer 20's and subs rather than 25's? Do you not miss the "famous" ATC mid-driver on the 25's ..... I keep reading reviews that seem to say the mid-driver is a big part of the ATC sound? I'm using a pair of Rythmik L12. I do prefer this setup compared to the 25's. I also thought I would prefer the 25's because of the mid-driver, but for some reason it didn't sound like the big ATCs. But once again, that's just my feeling. You may feel differently! |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 15, 2020 17:10:54 GMT -6
What subwoofers do you use? Are you saying you prefer 20's and subs rather than 25's? Do you not miss the "famous" ATC mid-driver on the 25's ..... I keep reading reviews that seem to say the mid-driver is a big part of the ATC sound? I'm using a pair of Rythmik L12. I do prefer this setup compared to the 25's. I also thought I would prefer the 25's because of the mid-driver, but for some reason it didn't sound like the big ATCs. But once again, that's just my feeling. You may feel differently! That is interesting to hear, what I really like the most but don't have a big enough room or big enough budget are the 50's which have the lot, the new tweeter, the SL bass driver and the full sized mid-driver and is of course priced accordingly! I get the impression from you, that the 20's MK2 which do have the SL bass driver (all be it only 6") and the new tweeter when paired with a sub might possibly get me closer to the sound of the 50's? Lot's to consider on a big purchase like this. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 15, 2020 17:15:04 GMT -6
Just one caveat about a sub is you have to spend whatever time it takes to get it calibrated and then unless it’s an atc sub have what ever sonic disparities you might experience. Whereas , the 3 way, are inherently integrated and just need normal positioning and break in?
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Post by dror520 on Nov 15, 2020 17:58:38 GMT -6
I'm using a pair of Rythmik L12. I do prefer this setup compared to the 25's. I also thought I would prefer the 25's because of the mid-driver, but for some reason it didn't sound like the big ATCs. But once again, that's just my feeling. You may feel differently! That is interesting to hear, what I really like the most but don't have a big enough room or big enough budget are the 50's which have the lot, the new tweeter, the SL bass driver and the full sized mid-driver and is of course priced accordingly! I get the impression from you, that the 20's MK2 which do have the SL bass driver (all be it only 6") and the new tweeter when paired with a sub might possibly get me closer to the sound of the 50's? Lot's to consider on a big purchase like this. The 50's are also my ideal monitors, but like you said they are over my budget at the moment. Yes, from my experience, the 20's with subs are closer to the 50's than the 25's. IMO of course haha. Also, like posted above this, integrating subs is a difficult and time consuming process. So that's also something to consider. Hope that helps! |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 15, 2020 22:17:19 GMT -6
Lots of talk about subs and if the 20’s will have enough bottom for you.
Can I ask what your room is like? That will have a big influence.
I prefer the 20’s to the 25’s myself. The mid driver in them did nothing for me and I don’t generally get on with a ported cabinet.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 16, 2020 3:34:18 GMT -6
Interesting points on integrating a sub, probably something I need to consider if I went that route.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 16, 2020 3:40:09 GMT -6
Lots of talk about subs and if the 20’s will have enough bottom for you. Can I ask what your room is like? That will have a big influence. I prefer the 20’s to the 25’s myself. The mid driver in them did nothing for me and I don’t generally get on with a ported cabinet. My room is 3.2m by 4.5m and has a decent amount of treatment designed for my room by GIK. I must say I'm used to the infinite baffle design of the K&H 0300's and that is an attraction of the 20's MK2 (plus the SL driver and new tweeter) but I do very much like to hear a decent amount of bass when I mix so that slightly worries me about the 20's. So I'm now down to 20's with a sub or the 25's .... I think I'm making progress :-) As soon as our national lockdown ends I will go and get a demo but all this excellent feedback is helping me build a picture of what to expect from each system, plus I'm unlikely to be able to get these monitors in my room very easily and I may need to make do with a demo at a dealers not ideal but it maybe all that is realistically possible at the moment. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 16, 2020 4:55:12 GMT -6
Good news, I've found a dealer who will lend me a pair of 25's for a week to set up in my room and do some mixing.
I guess it's the only way I'm going to know for sure.
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