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Post by svart on Oct 26, 2020 7:24:34 GMT -6
So I thought the SSLMixer application was overly convoluted.. But it turns out it's a shining example of simplicity compared to the MOTU routing app.
So here's the deal. I need to take 24 inputs on the 24ai and assign various channels to 8 analog outputs of the 828es for my low-latency headphone channels. I need to take 1 signal from a MIC IN on the 828es and route it to one of the same 8 analog outputs for talkback. Otherwise I need the 24 input channels to show up in Reaper and the Reaper master output to show up at the SPDIF output on the 828es.
Simple, right?
After reading MOTU claim that there was "ultimate flexibility" and "infinite routing" I figured it was possible. Now I'm not so sure and it might be a deal breaker.
I spent a couple hours reading the manual which just said things like "routing the AVB streams is easy! See this other section about how" and then after you've completely broken your concentration to find the other sections, it proceeds to not really explain it very well at all, usually just with a "just click the box to link". Various online threads are like "It's so simple! Just read the manual and it'll make sense!" and I read the manual again and it still does not make sense. I get no audio and a lot of the things I tried to link, the little blue square just disappears after I click as if it can't make the link.
The GUI is a joke, BTW.
But I digress. I can do linear algebra but I can't figure this thing out and I'm already frustrated with it before even getting audio through it.
I also tried saving my setup in the app and it lost it on reboot. What's up with that? I've seen multiple people say that I should be able to "set it and forget it" but that's not the case so far..
I'm going to go watch some videos, but it really, really, really shouldn't take reading the manual multiple times and watching videos for hours just to figure this thing out. MOTU really needs to spend some money on some real GUI developers here. Having worked in places where they skimped on GUI developers and just made the engineers do their own GUI work, this reeks of some guy just taking their testing software and building a quick and dirty GUI around it and calling it good. It's not even freshman graphic design worthy.
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 26, 2020 8:18:18 GMT -6
There's a 1:n relationship between external inputs or internal signals, and MOTU outputs (ie. you can mult a signal to multiple outputs).
There's a 1:1 relationship between external signals, and MOTU inputs OR outputs (i.e., no summing).
I think what may be the challenge is trying to use the routing matrix to directly bus to analog outs. For that, you need to use the mixer.
Handle the headphone mix and the AD to Reaper separately. The latter is simple - map the 24AI inputs to the USB computer in 1-24, and they show up in Reaper as inputs (and if you label them in the firmware Reaper inherits those labels). The Reaper output is assigned to an output in the DAW, which is identified SPDIF via the firmware.
For the headphone mix, you mult the inputs to the mixer, then mix the headphone mixes / auxes. Then route those auxes to the analog outs. This also makes "more me" type stuff easy - you pick each headphone submix and you'll see the stems there.
It definitely does save the profile, and you can save multiple profiles, and it persists through reboot and firmware updates (but you can reset to factory default, which may delete saved profiles? not sure).
Hope that alleviates some frustration.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 26, 2020 9:02:38 GMT -6
I’ve been struggling with the same issues. You’re forced to use the dsp mixer and create aux sends and/or group outs to get the most out of it. Also, try thinking of it as a networking app, NOT an interface. The Motu sees “outs” from your DAW and needs those to feed the “ins” on the interface which then need to feed the analog outs on the interface.
Yes it’s very confusing. I still haven’t worked out a perfect routing configuration yet.
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Post by donr on Oct 26, 2020 9:04:22 GMT -6
Try calling MOTU tech support. I call them with vexing DP 'how to's" and they typically solve the problem.
I agree that software matrix routing is confusing. I still don't truly understand Metric Halo's powerful mixer/router configuration software after using the hardware for over a decade. I still call them if I need to do something I can't figure out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 9:39:39 GMT -6
You have to use the mixer. It’s even more wtf than TotalMix. Save an external copy of your settings onto your computer in case you have to factory reset the thing. That will save you a good hour or two.
The GUI (and total mix’s) seem to have been designed 10 years ago by programmers who had never used an analog mixer or a daw unlike UAD and Steinberg. People pay for Lynx Auroras and Pro Tools HDX for good reason.
This is nothing compared to Digital Performer. Digital Performer makes me want to power drill my skull.
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Post by tasteliketape on Oct 26, 2020 9:44:18 GMT -6
What donr said I called Motu support with a routing question, they just set it up for me . Once I looked at what they did for a bit , it helped me understand the routing a bit better
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Post by EmRR on Oct 26, 2020 11:03:19 GMT -6
The tricky part between the two devices is establishing an AVB stream so there's communication between them. That part is like a patchbay within a patchbay.
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Post by keymod on Oct 26, 2020 11:23:30 GMT -6
The tricky part between the two devices is establishing an AVB stream so there's communication between them. That part is like a patchbay within a patchbay. I just got the Motu AVB switch and hooked up a 16A,24ao & Monitor 8. Turned them on and they all automatically recognized each other without a hitch |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 26, 2020 11:49:47 GMT -6
The tricky part between the two devices is establishing an AVB stream so there's communication between them. That part is like a patchbay within a patchbay. I just got the Motu AVB switch and hooked up a 16A,24ao & Monitor 8. Turned them on and they all automatically recognized each other without a hitch Recognizing and talking are different things |
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Post by svart on Oct 26, 2020 11:51:53 GMT -6
So reading, I see that the "Output" section has an "Input" section for the mixer. Totally un-necessary confusion as they should have just had another section/block of tiles where you could route to/from the mixer. The fact that your mixer's inputs are in the "outputs" and the mixer's outputs are in the "inputs" is a logic nightmare.
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 26, 2020 12:36:29 GMT -6
The routing matrix is organized from the perspective of the unit's I/O. All of the Unit INPUTS are on the top, and all of the unit OUTPUTS are on the side.
Of course this means that all of the OUTPUTS are also inputs. I mean by definition, an input has to feed an output. But signal flow is from the columns to the rows.
To be honest, I think you're being a little harsh with the setup. The manual details it, along with a kind of reasoning.
"Keep in mind, these are considered outputs, as the mixer is a destination to which signal can be sent from the Routing tab. This is an important distinction to remember. Signal coming into your device from any source, (a physical input, a "From Computer" audio stream, an AVB audio stream, or even one of the Mixer's output busses) can be routed to one of the "Mix In" channels."
"Once input signal is successfully routed through the Mixer, the Mixer's output channel needs to be routed to a destination in the Routing Tab. Keep in mind, the Mixer Output channels, (Main Mix, Monitor Mix, Aux Channels, Group Channels, etc.), are inputs in your Routing Tab, found across the top."
But, from a UI perspective, if a person pushes on a pull door, the door is wrong.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 26, 2020 12:44:26 GMT -6
It's definitely one of those "I've been doing this for years, now I feel like a stupid beginner" things.
I would start by closing all sections you don't need, and go through them one at a time first, it helps to narrow down the field of view.
When/if you export settings, label them immediately. They are all named the same thing if you don't! That's stupid.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 26, 2020 12:50:28 GMT -6
So reading, I see that the "Output" section has an "Input" section for the mixer. Totally un-necessary confusion as they should have just had another section/block of tiles where you could route to/from the mixer. The fact that your mixer's inputs are in the "outputs" and the mixer's outputs are in the "inputs" is a logic nightmare. I have thought multiple times about switching interfaces just because of their routing. Crazy confusing and I've had these boxes for years. At one time, when I was initially setting it up, I had a workable understanding of it. But just yesterday I had to start from scratch after migrating to a new computer, and I have to learn it all over again. Urgh. I will say that their support has always been very responsive. Even had someone walk me through it at one point. |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 26, 2020 13:05:48 GMT -6
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but all the same things are going to make someone nuts in Dante, and it's the established and entrenched audio networking standard this mimics. Kinda like Pro Tools! : )
The thing that drives me nuts most is what happens between DAW, computer, and interfaces with a sample rate change. If not done in exactly the right order, I might as well reboot because it starts acting like a dog chasing it's tail.
Rarely, the AVB streams between interfaces with shut down, and I'll have to restart them.
I find far more things about the AVB mixer problematic than I do about the routing. The reverb sucks; in this day and age?!? WyTF would I want an LA-2A as a bus limiter, but can't put it anywhere else? The channel comp was broken from the start, they finally fixed it, used to have automatic auto gain and would boost levels 12dB the moment you turned it on. Etc. Having the HPF option for monitor mixes only is a great option.
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Post by terryrocks on Oct 26, 2020 13:19:31 GMT -6
I’ve been bitching about the routing matrix since I buoght a 16a maybe 5-6 years ago.
I’d like to say it gets easier with time, but...
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Post by michaelcleary on Oct 26, 2020 17:25:04 GMT -6
i got a 16a years ago and had to call them after days of frustration. Once that i got it set, its been working fine and I havent touched it in years...
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 26, 2020 20:58:17 GMT -6
i got a 16a years ago and had to call them after days of frustration. Once that i got it set, its been working fine and I havent touched it in years... I have an 828es and really have only been tracking with it through a few preamps. As I start more into processing and mixing hybrid, I will probably just write down what I want to do and then email or call them to walk me through it although a few of the posts above are helping me understand the routing better. |
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2020 8:42:52 GMT -6
The routing matrix is organized from the perspective of the unit's I/O. All of the Unit INPUTS are on the top, and all of the unit OUTPUTS are on the side. Of course this means that all of the OUTPUTS are also inputs. I mean by definition, an input has to feed an output. But signal flow is from the columns to the rows. To be honest, I think you're being a little harsh with the setup. The manual details it, along with a kind of reasoning. "Keep in mind, these are considered outputs, as the mixer is a destination to which signal can be sent from the Routing tab. This is an important distinction to remember. Signal coming into your device from any source, (a physical input, a "From Computer" audio stream, an AVB audio stream, or even one of the Mixer's output busses) can be routed to one of the "Mix In" channels." "Once input signal is successfully routed through the Mixer, the Mixer's output channel needs to be routed to a destination in the Routing Tab. Keep in mind, the Mixer Output channels, (Main Mix, Monitor Mix, Aux Channels, Group Channels, etc.), are inputs in your Routing Tab, found across the top." But, from a UI perspective, if a person pushes on a pull door, the door is wrong. I've never been one to learn in a traditional way, so maybe that's part of it, but seeing all the replies with similar feelings toward it, I don't think I'm totally off base in my harsh critique.. I think it's a case of it being easy to explain if you know it inside and out, but hard to understand if it doesn't logically flow. Since I deal with technical literature all the time and have to assist others in writing it as well in addition to trying to explain things to other HW and SW engineers, it's easy to fall into the trap of explaining something that makes sense to myself but to nobody else. Puzzled looks are usually the first clue, then folks ask a lot of questions which typically means I haven't explained it very well and I have to find a better way. Needing a lot of questions answered and a lot of hand-holding to get something working means the original instruction was lacking. If lots of people are needing a lot of videos and calls to MOTU for support, it's because their manual isn't very good at explaining the overly complicated GUI structure.. An OUT door is an IN door from the other side.. |
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2020 8:48:52 GMT -6
It's definitely one of those "I've been dong this for years, now I feel like a stupid beginner" things. I would start by closing all sections you don't need, and go through them one at a time first, it helps to narrow down the field of view. When/if you export settings, label them immediately. They are all named the same thing if you don't! That's stupid. Last night after digging and before dinner, I spent some time doing this. I removed pretty much everything from the routing menus that I don't need. I also set up Reaper and finished installing all of my plugs and pulled up a session to play through the 828es for the first time. Sounded fine through SPDIF! Anyway, I'll do a little more reading and try to start setting up some of the routing in the 24ai to send through the AVB stream to the 828es to be routed out the 8 analog ports for headphones. If I can get that working, I'm home free I think. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 27, 2020 8:49:50 GMT -6
Right. I got frustrated when I set mine up the first time, then I sat down and tried to think of a better way to show what they were doing and I really couldn't. hahah!
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2020 8:52:40 GMT -6
Also, the units did seem to boot up into their last configurations but the names of the configurations reverted back to the generic names which confused me. If I named the 828es profile "monitor" and rebooted, the name that came up was always "audio interface" or whatever the generic starting name is.
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Post by svart on Oct 28, 2020 12:00:18 GMT -6
I messed with this some more last night. I think I have a plan, although it's inconvenient.
24ai with mixer for 4 stereo headphone busses out through 1 AVB stream to the 828es.
AVB stream from 24ai into mixer channels on the 828es.
From computer stream into mixer channels on the 828es.
Mixer channels to AUXs since I can't assign multiple direct inputs to either channels or auxs.
AUXs out to hardware outputs on 828es for headphones.
I really wish you could assign multiple signals to one channel or aux. Other programs allow this all the time. it would significantly cut down on the convolution here.
Also, my mixer and routing matrix only show 6 Groups or Auxs but I see more than 10 in the literature and videos. Can I add more to the mixer somehow?
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Post by svart on Oct 28, 2020 19:57:40 GMT -6
I'm looking at 3x2 auxs and 2x4 groups in my setup but I'm seeing a how-to on motu's site that shows 12 auxs and a lot of groups, yet I can't find any info on how to get more auxs and groups in the mixer..
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Post by woofhead on Oct 28, 2020 20:31:51 GMT -6
I'm looking at 3x2 auxs and 2x4 groups in my setup but I'm seeing a how-to on motu's site that shows 12 auxs and a lot of groups, yet I can't find any info on how to get more auxs and groups in the mixer.. The # of aux and busses depends on the sample rate.Its halved at 88.2/96 compared to 44.1/48 and halved again at 192.Theres also a place to select the # of aux you see but I'm not in front of it and dont want to tell you the wrong thing.Yeah it can be maddening Mike |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 28, 2020 23:10:38 GMT -6
Hmm my post disappeared. 7 stereo aux and 3 groups at 48. 3 aux and 2 groups at 96.
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