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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Oct 20, 2020 14:13:09 GMT -6
Hi all!!
I moved to LA and ran into a studio owner with one successful location. He is hoping to open another with me in charge. He’s so overbooked at the first location that the run-off has the potential to establish an immediate clientele.
Of course the prospect of constant work is more enticing than fending for myself in a brand new city, however, I’m iffy on the idea of moving my stuff into a lockout (that he’s paying for) because of how this effects my ability to mix.
Recording hourly makes perfect sense, but mixing hourly seems “wrong” to me. Also, I’ve never charged people for revisions and this could create an issue when I have to start booking out the room to perform them. My fear is that I’d be giving up a significantly fatter chunk of my mixing money than I should be paying a manager for referrals, so evening out the playing field via percentages might cause him never to book me for mixing.
Could I get any advice or related stories to consider?? I’d be getting a percentage of every hour and equity for bringing in the gear from my home setup (~$20k). Thanks!
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Post by EmRR on Oct 20, 2020 14:51:59 GMT -6
By the hour by the hour by the hour. Or by the day by the day by the day. Mixing is the 'same as', it's all work. Talk to some film, video, or live event people and see how they feel about it....answer....day rate, period, maybe a half day if under 5 hours....which ISN'T half rate! You're in a different niche of the same basic industry.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 20, 2020 14:56:12 GMT -6
I'd say give it a try, but give yourself a good out so you can bail if things go bad. That way you can stay in good standing with the guy. Networking with good people is an important part of the biz and the foundation of longevity in this career, IMHO.
I agree with you about mixing per hour. I charge per song and it usually works out better for me monetarily. But I have stipulations up front (song length, no editing, no vocal tuning, limited revisions etc).
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2020 15:02:19 GMT -6
Recording hourly makes perfect sense, but mixing hourly seems “wrong” to me. This makes no sense to me. I'm worth getting paid for every hour I work. I worked in LA for decades and that's how I grew my clientele, credits and business. It doesn't matter what I'm doing. IMO, hourly is the only way that's fair to BOTH parties. If your client thinks it's taking you too long to mix, then have them attend the sessions. They will either be happy with you or fire you. Either way, fair. My clients had no issues with paying me hourly. Whether mixing, setup, or tracking. Back when I was in LA my hourly (without studio - studio was free, and you were paying for ME whether at my studio or a different studio) was $65-80 per hour. 7 years ago. Charging "studio time" will backfire on you at this juncture. If you can't throw a rock and hit a "recording studio" in LA, you're not in LA. You have to charge for the value you bring - not for the gear. And that's the talent. (i.e. you - not your gear). And BTW, $20k of gear is not going to take you far in LA. Home of the best (arguably) and most (arguably) studio's in the world per capita. I'd take whatever you can get. And I wouldn't be hoping for manager referrals no matter how great you may be. In LA, you'll have to have numerous hit records, gold/platinum albums, grammies and be well connected to make that happen. That's my experience. I know many great and experienced engineers with multiple grammy's and gold/platinum who are either teaching, or painting, or driving a UPS truck to make ends meet. Take it for what it's worth..... Good luck.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Oct 20, 2020 16:13:33 GMT -6
Thank you guys for the quick responses! Recording hourly makes perfect sense, but mixing hourly seems “wrong” to me. This makes no sense to me. I'm worth getting paid for every hour I work. IMO, hourly is the only way that's fair to BOTH parties. If your client thinks it's taking you too long to mix, then have them attend the sessions. They will either be happy with you or fire you. Either way, fair. My clients had no issues with paying me hourly. Whether mixing, setup, or tracking. You're right and I'm probably gonna need to run with this. Fact of life, some people just might not come back. My defense against mixing hourly was that I'd like to avoid situations in which I can't take some extra ear breaks or start an idea over, but this might just be a thing that comes with experience. I'm hoping the Silver Bullet I ordered last week speeds me up a touch too!!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Oct 20, 2020 16:41:55 GMT -6
By the hour is the way it’s always been because if your mixing I can’t book the room for that time thus lost revenue. This really is a business after all.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 20, 2020 17:10:59 GMT -6
I'm going to play devils advocate here, but with this caveat...everyone's situation is different and may call for different approaches...ok, here we go:
Certainly nothing wrong with charging hourly for mixing, but you can't scale that. You work X hours and get X amount of money. However, if you charge per song, flat rate but with stipulations (number of tracks, revisions, length of song etc) you can scale that...by getting faster (spending less time per mix). There are guys that can mix two songs a day with really good results. If they work hourly that brings them no benefit. Obviously, it depends how much you're charging, in each scenario.
Thoughts?
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Post by EmRR on Oct 20, 2020 17:34:49 GMT -6
There are guys that can mix two songs a day with really good results. If they work hourly that brings them no benefit. Thoughts? That's when rates are raised.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 20, 2020 17:47:02 GMT -6
There are guys that can mix two songs a day with really good results. If they work hourly that brings them no benefit. Thoughts? That's when rates are raised. Good point. But I suppose you could say the same if you were mixing flat rate too.
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Post by svart on Oct 20, 2020 17:54:23 GMT -6
Only works if you can keep up a certain professional class of clientele. If you're doing small bands and inexperienced artists by the hour, they tend to pay attention to the clock more than what they're playing and you get results that correspond.
Blocks of time tend to work better with certain folks, it keeps them from worrying so much about money.
But if you're lucky and good enough to get folks that will pay by the hour and not worry about how much it's costing power hour, more power to you.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 20, 2020 18:09:37 GMT -6
We always charged by the hour/day. Charging a flat rate per song can encourage some clients to become anally obsessive about all kinds of minutia as it allows them to ignore the clock at your expense.
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Post by wiz on Oct 20, 2020 18:30:46 GMT -6
Depends on the customers expectations.
I worked in the shallow end of the talent gene pool.... fixed price, 1 set of revisions was the deal. Studio time was changed at $50 dollars per hour 4 hrs minimum for tracking.
No way they would have gone with anything that was open ended... and I can understand that....
We had pretty good discussions before hand though.
so something like "if you can nail all your performance stuff inside 4hrs, then you leave and I get you back the next day (or send you) to listen and make any changes you want to the mix then $400 will cover it at most.
Usually I then came in at $300, which they always loved... and always when the turned up I had water, snacks....biscuits, donuts etc laid out...
I tell you that $10 bucks I spent on snacks, was the best advertising I ever did... they would walk passed Neumann mics and V72 preamps and go "oooooh donuts".
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by christopher on Oct 20, 2020 18:38:25 GMT -6
By the hour. There are guys happy with a 15 minute mix. And other guys will be happy to spend thousands to get it the way they want.
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2020 19:09:52 GMT -6
I'm going to play devils advocate here, but with this caveat...everyone's situation is different and may call for different approaches...ok, here we go: Certainly nothing wrong with charging hourly for mixing, but you can't scale that. You work X hours and get X amount of money. However, if you charge per song, flat rate but with stipulations (number of tracks, revisions, length of song etc) you can scale that...by getting faster (spending less time per mix). There are guys that can mix two songs a day with really good results. If they work hourly that brings them no benefit. Obviously, it depends how much you're charging, in each scenario. Thoughts? Are you surprised I have thoughts? After working in the studio on one side of the glass or the other for the last 35+ years, in pretty much any job you can think of....I can't remember a time when something took LESS time than myself, the engineer, the producer, the artist or the record company thought it would. Actually....there was one time. Darryl Coley. ALL lead vocals done on an entire album in 7 hours. Superhuman singer. But that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.... So...if I charge flat, I'm getting hosed 99 times out of 100. But let's say that I'm crazy fast like your 2 songs a day guy. Then I'm making bank and the ARTIST is getting hosed 99 times out of 100. Personally, I don't want to take advantage of my clients as most become fast friends. I'll often cut them hourly breaks if I feel it's getting expensive. But charging HOURLY keeps things on even keel and keeps everyone happy, healthy and making money. One caveat : your client has to trust you - and you have to earn it and build that trust. Trust is key. You won't be getting random calls from someone on the internet in another country calling you up to mix hourly. The other "hidden" factor. If I'm charging a flat rate, I'm much more inclined to say "good enough - the client will never hear that change". And honestly - I won't work that way. I won't do it. The mix doesn't leave until I'm 110% happy even if it takes longer. And like I said earlier, in certain unique situations, I'll cut the hourly number. And guess what? Over the years, most of my clients came to realize that - and the TRUST grew. Then when I'm OK, the artist / record co / film studio / etc. has to be happy. If I can't achieve that, I'm not doing this for money. Period. My $0.02 devalued to $0.000043872 for streaming services.... No one has to agree with me - and that's totally cool, but that's my take on it. I grew up in an age when the art came first. Different world these days. Cheers, bp
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2020 19:16:41 GMT -6
PS - another thought.
If you have a flat $500 a day rate, and your client pays you for the day. They come in at 10:00 and their guitarist shreds and you're done at 2. Or their guitarist doesn't show up. Or their wife calls and needs them. Or fill in the blank. Which one of your clients is NOT going to ask for a partial refund of the day. Trust me, it's going to happen.
50% down with booking, minimum hours guarantee, 15 minute grace time on the start time whether or not they or their talent is there - NO exceptions, pay by the hour, no cancellations within a week from the session date or they forfeit their 50% down. If you want to survive in the shark tank, get it right out of the gate..... Act like a professional, and you stand a fighting chance of being treated like a professional. Act like an amateur and it's a guarantee you will get treated like one.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 20, 2020 19:32:02 GMT -6
I'm going to play devils advocate here, but with this caveat...everyone's situation is different and may call for different approaches...ok, here we go: Certainly nothing wrong with charging hourly for mixing, but you can't scale that. You work X hours and get X amount of money. However, if you charge per song, flat rate but with stipulations (number of tracks, revisions, length of song etc) you can scale that...by getting faster (spending less time per mix). There are guys that can mix two songs a day with really good results. If they work hourly that brings them no benefit. Obviously, it depends how much you're charging, in each scenario. Thoughts? Are you surprised I have thoughts? After working in the studio on one side of the glass or the other for the last 35+ years, in pretty much any job you can think of....I can't remember a time when something took LESS time than myself, the engineer, the producer, the artist or the record company thought it would. Actually....there was one time. Darryl Coley. ALL lead vocals done on an entire album in 7 hours. Superhuman singer. But that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.... So...if I charge flat, I'm getting hosed 99 times out of 100. But let's say that I'm crazy fast like your 2 songs a day guy. Then I'm making bank and the ARTIST is getting hosed 99 times out of 100. Personally, I don't want to take advantage of my clients as most become fast friends. I'll often cut them hourly breaks if I feel it's getting expensive. But charging HOURLY keeps things on even keel and keeps everyone happy, healthy and making money. One caveat : your client has to trust you - and you have to earn it and build that trust. Trust is key. You won't be getting random calls from someone on the internet in another country calling you up to mix hourly. The other "hidden" factor. If I'm charging a flat rate, I'm much more inclined to say "good enough - the client will never hear that change". And honestly - I won't work that way. I won't do it. The mix doesn't leave until I'm 110% happy even if it takes longer. And like I said earlier, in certain unique situations, I'll cut the hourly number. And guess what? Over the years, most of my clients came to realize that - and the TRUST grew. Then when I'm OK, the artist / record co / film studio / etc. has to be happy. If I can't achieve that, I'm not doing this for money. Period. My $0.02 devalued to $0.000043872 for streaming services.... No one has to agree with me - and that's totally cool, but that's my take on it. I grew up in an age when the art came first. Different world these days. Cheers, bp Thanks for the perspective! I really did want to hear everyone's thoughts because its evident that all of our experiences are different. I 100% agree that trust is key, in either of these situations. Like you, I tend to become good friends with many of my clients. But its funny how we differ. For me, charging flat rate, I'm more inclined to work longer and harder...I won't let the mix leave until I'm 100% happy...because that mix represents ME. So kinda the polar opposite of where you're coming from! Which is all good, people are motivated in different ways and different personalities perceive situations differently I'll say that I'm not ripping anyone off when I charge flat rate...my rates simply aren't high enough, and my work is good enough that no one is ever feeling cheated. Ever. I go so far above and beyond when I work with someone because the songs that leave my studio are a representation of ME, and won't sleep if I knew I under performed. Also, I'm in the somewhat unique situation of not having to work with people I don't like...which is always nice. Also, for me, I've been able to significantly cut down the time it takes me to mix, while maintaining the same quality of mixes (and in some cases actually improving it). All while charging the same. So the flat rate thing was worked for me. Also, like Wiz said earlier, my clients don't have the budgets, or experience to go into it open ended. That would freak them out. They want to know what the final price is going to be. Anyway, no real right or wrong answer here. It's really interesting to read people's perspectives and glean what I can from it. Thanks for your input! You're always a wealth of knowledge.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 20, 2020 20:22:15 GMT -6
I edit and mix by the hour and keep track of it on a spreadsheet. Sessions that require more edits and automation will cost more. Clients who change their minds (which is totally fine and expected) know the rate up front.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 20, 2020 20:33:57 GMT -6
I’d like to add one thing. 95% of the time, when I’m mixing it’s something that I tracked. Almost no one is hiring to just mix their tracks. So that makes a big difference, because is know exactly what I’m getting into.
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2020 20:34:09 GMT -6
Tbone81 - working "harder / longer" when doing flat rate projects for me means making less money for my family, business, career. And like you, I'd no doubt spend more time. Thereby cheating myself from what I perceive as my value. Short time - not a big deal. Long term - I'm either not happy, or the business suffers. Like you said, so many options and perspectives.
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Post by Quint on Oct 21, 2020 5:52:03 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Oct 21, 2020 9:03:49 GMT -6
The guys that tell you that they "always start from scratch" are the same ones that tell you that they always charge by the hour..
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Post by christopher on Oct 21, 2020 11:32:11 GMT -6
Re-reading the original question, if moving your gear into the space means you can only access it when somebody is paying an hourly fee, well I would be very careful.. Is he going to want an hourly rate anytime you are in the studio? Because that can mean you want to do tech time, experiment, rewire etc and he could be wondering if you are in there working on a project and not paying him / ripping him off. And even if it’s all cool and you talk about it, that mental pressure may be there in the subconscious and sleeping can be frustrating, knowing you can’t just go play with your gear. And then you‘ll wonder if you’ll see your gear again if things sour. If he’s talented then he should know working many unpaid hours every week are part of this gig. So make sure he and you both agree you get “x” many hours each week to do “flex time” at no cost and can be whatever, maybe fix a badly recorded track, or mix attempts, patch bay, calibration, goof around, online mixing, etc. Otherwise you will feel the stress, esp w/ all the easy surveillance nowadays
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Post by Guitar on Oct 21, 2020 11:42:22 GMT -6
Musicians, with money? What did someone find a pot of gold or something? I'm confused.
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Post by Ward on Oct 21, 2020 13:36:37 GMT -6
The usual convention it to mix by the song in my experience, amongst all the peers I chat with on a regular basis. how much? $150 a song's basic mix with 2-3 revision mixes M1 M2 M3 M4 (songtitle.M1.wav for example). Something more elaborate would be $250.
Often you get asked for an album price.
But hey, whatever works for you and your clientele! (sp?) And I would be real interested in other people's rates also.
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Post by svart on Oct 21, 2020 14:07:42 GMT -6
The usual convention it to mix by the song in my experience, amongst all the peers I chat with on a regular basis. how much? $150 a song's basic mix with 2-3 revision mixes M1 M2 M3 M4 (songtitle.M1.wav for example). Something more elaborate would be $250. Often you get asked for an album price. But hey, whatever works for you and your clientele! (sp?) And I would be real interested in other people's rates also. I typically charge 300$ per song tracked and mixed. I try to spend a little time with the band before tracking to make sure they're ready. If they are, I can get 3-4 songs tracked in a day. For mixes I usually tell them 2 weeks and I work on them at my leisure so I can take ear breaks and do other things to clear my head when needed.
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